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Post by mcbibble on May 31, 2012 14:10:44 GMT
Annie and surma couldn't be separated. They shared that soul as gradually it was passed from one to the other, and then when the job was done surma died. Talk about passing the torch.
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Post by Lightice on May 31, 2012 14:31:26 GMT
Annie and surma couldn't be separated. They shared that soul as gradually it was passed from one to the other, and then when the job was done surma died. Talk about passing the torch. A soul maybe, but not the soul. As I said, Surma grew weaker in physical strength and etheric powers, but not in mental faculties. She and Annie shared a life-force, but I see no indication anywhere in the comic that they would be the same person temporarily split in half. No-one tells Annie that "you are Surma", even after the truth comes out. In fact Donny outright tells her that she is her own person, not an extension of either of her parents. I find the assumption that the elemental would be either Annie or Surma, as in the mind, memories or personality, deeply flawed. There just isn't anything that supports that theory to be found. They are their own people, and to assume otherwise would mean undermining both Surma's sacrifice and Annie's plight, as well as their mutual characters.
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Post by mcbibble on May 31, 2012 14:38:27 GMT
There's nothing to support your theories either, dude, i mean we're arguing over fictional magic science. I just find my explanation more narratively satisfying.
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Post by Lightice on May 31, 2012 14:47:53 GMT
There's nothing to support your theories either, dude, i mean we're arguing over fictional magic science. I just find my explanation more narratively satisfying. I just don't see how the gradual loss of a soul would result in physical deterioration, but not mental. The Coyote himself tells Annie that she's "mostly human", not "pure elemental trapped in a human shell". Donny, as I said, put emphasis on how Annie is her own person, not to be defined through her parents. I find all that contradictory to the idea. Even fictional magic science needs to be internally consistent, and the idea of passing the actual soul creates more contradictions than it solves. That, and I prefer to see Annie as her own person, not a mere extension of Surma and their ancestors.
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cass
Junior Member
Posts: 58
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Post by cass on Jun 2, 2012 22:46:23 GMT
If what's left would be a nobody, then what did Annie help to pass on?
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Post by mcbibble on Jun 2, 2012 22:53:28 GMT
If what's left would be a nobody, then what did Annie help to pass on? Just memories, like kat or the jacks in Zimmyville. I mean, Reynard specifically said no one came for her because there was nothing to take. Perhaps what Annie was doing was more like a process for her, symbolic of her new place in the world?
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Post by negativeproximity on Jun 3, 2012 7:05:09 GMT
It could also mean that there was nothing anyone could take. We've seen from other psychopomps, they have different rights to different sorts of folks, depending on the person's background.
Obviously there was SOMETHING left, as we see a shot of annie walking her mother out to the glowy white door. How can you walk memories out to a glowy white door?
It seems to signify that her ethereal self was still distinct from annie, which seems to be what signifies a persons soul.
The elemental seems to be a layer deeper.
Perhaps it's the energy that goes into powering the life force of a soul? Which could also explain why she might be useless to other psychopomps. I've seen some mythologies which state that the energy of a soul goes into furthering creation after passing on IE keeping the world turning. If her soul had no energy, no "fire" left, it would still exist... it just wouldn't be anything the psychopomps could do anything about, and would just have to pass on.
Its also possible her close nature with the psychopomps is what made her incapable of being taken by any of them. There was nothing for them to take, because they couldn't have any claim over her.
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cass
Junior Member
Posts: 58
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Post by cass on Jun 3, 2012 18:18:19 GMT
Just memories, like kat or the jacks in Zimmyville. I mean, Reynard specifically said no one came for her because there was nothing to take. Perhaps what Annie was doing was more like a process for her, symbolic of her new place in the world? Perhaps. But I don't think Annie really got a new place in the world then. It's not even decided she'll be medium for sure yet. She was a traumatised girl who helped some people pass on before she did it, and she was the same after. The fire elemental is a pre-requisite for her life, and something that the psychopomps are interested in, presumably to the exclusion of anything else she has. But what do we really add to our understanding by using this terminology? If the memories didn't go with the fire elemental, and (accepting lightice's argument) that the emotions didn't go with the fire elemental - what exactly do you mean when you call it her soul? It seems to me as if pretty much everything she is, bar the maintenance of life, would be separate to her soul. And that seems at odds with what people generally mean when they talk about a soul. Nothing to take... well, memories are something even if no-one took them; so that's got to be a value comment 'There was nothing the psychopomps wanted/could take' rather than an absolute.
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Post by mcbibble on Jun 3, 2012 22:21:39 GMT
Annie is living an atheists existence in a spiritual world. Elementals live on through thir children, not as individuals. That's why surma had a child, even knowing it would kill her- if she died childless her line would end and all that went before her would be lost- more like the end of a civilisation rather than the end of one long, continuous life. We live on only in the mannerisms and values we pass to our children.
Well, I say it declaratively, but its obviously only my theory... XD
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Post by negativeproximity on Jun 4, 2012 4:58:51 GMT
I have to wonder. would the same thing happen with a male child? Or are they all born female?
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Post by Marnath on Jun 4, 2012 5:52:40 GMT
I have to wonder. would the same thing happen with a male child? Or are they all born female? I imagine that not only are they always female, they're always identical too. The only real difference between young Surma and Annie is that her hair was poofy.
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Post by negativeproximity on Jun 4, 2012 6:14:15 GMT
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Kriselia
Junior Member
But she smells wonderful!
Posts: 87
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Post by Kriselia on Jun 4, 2012 11:49:28 GMT
I'd need to take another look at it maybe... Top right. Annie and her dad are THE SAME PERSON. And here we were thinking it was the mother... Also, when they blankface they're exactly the same but when you go through that chapter they often have mirrored expressions, like the top panel here www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=1014Probably to emphasize the similarity ofc. I looked through the archives for a good pic or Surma, and the one here seems like a good reference. She definitely got her looks from her dad.
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Post by Lightice on Jun 4, 2012 13:03:27 GMT
I imagine that not only are they always female, they're always identical too. The only real difference between young Surma and Annie is that her hair was poofy. Tom has mentioned that it's at least theoretically possible for a fire elemental descendent to have a male child in the Formspring. He did seem to imply that it would be a very uncommon incident, though.
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Post by sykoholic on Jul 2, 2012 4:08:07 GMT
If what's left would be a nobody, then what did Annie help to pass on? It could be a matter of "politics". As a medium, Surma had to be neutral so no psychopomp had rights/claim to her. As a result, none could come for her. Its also possible her close nature with the psychopomps is what made her incapable of being taken by any of them. There was nothing for them to take, because they couldn't have any claim over her. Same idea as mine... different wording. Elementals live on through their children, not as individuals. The fire elemental part of Annie and Surma's being could be similar to a phoenix. One (the parent) burns out and a new one (the offspring) rises from the ashes. Surma "gave up" part of hers by giving life to Annie. As Annie's "inner elemental" continued to mature and grow stronger, Surma's continued to weaken until it finally expired, Surma expiring along with it. Just a thought. Whatever Anthony is up to, it apparently has had unintended consequences. That would be my guess. Just a wild theory here but it seems that many of the scenes involve Annie's memories or concerns (her bond with Coyote, her curiosity about who/what Jones is, etc). I'm thinking the whole thing is simply Annie's father reading her mind. As soon as Lizzy insults Annie's father, Annie gets angry thereby letting her father know she feels about him. Why does the "link" between Annie and her father look like bones? Well... we're seeing it from Zimmy's perspective. Doesn't EVERYTHING look dead and ugly to her?
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Post by GK Sierra on Jul 2, 2012 5:56:20 GMT
If what's left would be a nobody, then what did Annie help to pass on? It could be a matter of "politics". As a medium, Surma had to be neutral so no psychopomp had rights/claim to her. As a result, none could come for her. Same idea as mine... different wording. Never thought of this as a possible reason for the psychompomps failure to come for her mother. Interesting... Welcome to the forum.
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Post by TBeholder on Jul 2, 2012 12:48:38 GMT
It could be a matter of "politics". As a medium, Surma had to be neutral so no psychopomp had rights/claim to her. As a result, none could come for her. Never thought of this as a possible reason for the psychompomps failure to come for her mother. Interesting... Most likely, the opposite: they hand mediation to someone who doesn't belong to any jurisdiction, and there aren't many.
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Post by GK Sierra on Jul 2, 2012 18:54:51 GMT
Never thought of this as a possible reason for the psychompomps failure to come for her mother. Interesting... Most likely, the opposite: they hand mediation to someone who doesn't belong to any jurisdiction, and there aren't many. Hmm... so what would cause them to be placed in that category? The fact that they're fire elemental(s)? Perhaps there is some lineage greater than that that hasn't yet been revealed. (Or is about to be, *crosses fingers*)
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Post by Georgie L on Jul 3, 2012 2:14:29 GMT
Most likely, the opposite: they hand mediation to someone who doesn't belong to any jurisdiction, and there aren't many. Hmm... so what would cause them to be placed in that category? The fact that they're fire elemental(s)? Perhaps there is some lineage greater than that that hasn't yet been revealed. (Or is about to be, *crosses fingers*) My pet theory on that, she had to mediate for them because mediators took the last of there essence and make it part of them before crossing them to wherever they have to go. Since that it was being part fire elemental that made annie literally suck the life out of her mum, she was the only one allowed to take her.
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