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Post by King Mir on Sept 7, 2011 19:56:50 GMT
I do think that Annie likes Jack, or at least did until a moment ago. However I'm not ready to jump on the "she was teasing him" bandwagon. It could be her statement was meant to be spiteful, but was unplanned. If Annie feels like she has reason to be mad at Jack, then she might have felt more comfortable insulting him than kissing him!
I wonder what will happen to the blinker stone now. Jack has it now, and will probably offer to give it back. If Annie feels bad about what she just did, then she would not want to take it back; she would want to let him borrow it, making it clear that it is a loan. But will she have the words to say that? Will Jack give her the chance? But jack may not remember to give it back. Annie could take it back on her own, but again may not want to. Since Jack knows she can, then he might not try to give it back to her. So Jack will have the stone to practice with, and Annie can spy on him. Maybe that's too Parley and Andrew. Now, there will be no issue with the stone if the two of them make up by the end of the chapter.
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Post by nero on Sept 7, 2011 20:07:25 GMT
Remember when Jack called Annie an ice queen. www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=620Under the spider's influence Jack may have said things that were dark but true thoughts. The spider was just starting to get parts of the real Jack at this point. So maybe Annie knows that some inner part of Jack would have been okay with hurting Reynard and leaving Annie.
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Post by Per on Sept 7, 2011 20:34:42 GMT
This is just another one of those things where I'm going to have to wait until the dust settles before I try to figure out what's going on. But that's crazy!!
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Post by 0o0f on Sept 7, 2011 20:40:01 GMT
It seems like there is something Annie isn't saying. If I was her I would say it was revenge for the guard bot he killed. I don't like the idea of Annie's revenge or that she might have had a crush on Jack. I don't think Kat knew anything about her plan. Annie might have decided to do this when she heard of the meeting. I think if she really meant to have revenge, that she did it to crush him quickly so that she as a fire elemental doesn't have to bother with the trouble of someone liking her. She might be misplacing hatred on Jack because she is still upset that she is the cause of her mother's death. She might hate the idea of love because it lead to her mother's death. When you mention it, it does seem like there could be another reason Annie is so angry, and she's just grabbing at something else.
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Post by hargharg on Sept 7, 2011 21:07:08 GMT
Not to mention, from where should Annie know Jack has nothing to do with what the spider did (I really don't remember, could someone please link me the comic)? 742Jones sometimes manipulates people, but yeah, as long as it isn't proven otherwise we should assume she's told the truth. Thank you.
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aegis
New Member
Above and beyond
Posts: 30
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Post by aegis on Sept 7, 2011 22:33:32 GMT
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Post by fronzel on Sept 7, 2011 23:13:33 GMT
I've already finished being surprised that some people here will forgive the forest anything, but now I'm surprised all over again that they're willing to do the same for Annie.
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Post by Afalstein on Sept 8, 2011 0:07:06 GMT
Just thought of something. I'm pretty sure KAT thought Annie was acting in good faith. How do you think she'll react when she hears about all this?
Or maybe Annie just won't tell her. She's gotten pretty devious, it seems.
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Post by rainofsteel on Sept 8, 2011 0:43:08 GMT
Jack* has spied on her via the computer, talked badly about her dad, lured her to the power station, lied to her in order to attack Renard[1], left her there alone to deal with his shit. All while he was under what amounts to mind control and Annie knows of that first hand, not through some story. And now all of a sudden it's "You are not allowed to blame him for what he did." Why does she have to blame someone? It's not like what he did is making the rounds of the school students. Then who is there left to actually take the blame? Circumstances. Upon which it is pointless to take out your frustrations. Sounds somewhat far-fetched? It doesn't sound far-fetched at all. I just don't like it as it implies things I further don't like. And I suppose Friday will be no more elucidating than today was. As I read your words, I got the strangest feeling that we may be waiting a while. and was hurt by his earlier betrayal. In order to betray someone, you must actually commit that betrayal yourself. If someone or something else is committing the act with you as a puppet, then you didn't really betray someone.
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Post by rainofsteel on Sept 8, 2011 0:45:12 GMT
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Post by Stately Buff-Cookie on Sept 8, 2011 1:21:04 GMT
Oh Annie..
Dear sweet Annie.
I did say it a couple threads ago, didn't I Annie? You don't play a playah.
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Post by paxjax123 on Sept 8, 2011 1:24:16 GMT
Does.... Does anyone else think that Annie was teasing when she said "I don't think I like you very much."?
But now she's actually mad.
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Post by Max on Sept 8, 2011 1:29:38 GMT
That's what I thought when I first read it, and it still strikes me as a weird phrasing if she was telling the truth.
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Post by TBeholder on Sept 8, 2011 1:32:29 GMT
So the Spider gets no blame at all just because it was using Jack's body? Spider got squished, so she doesn't have to deal with it again, ever. I'm saying that it is only human for Annie to be mad and she absolutely has the right to be mad. [...] The problem is, that none of the two realized this yet. Jack believes that Annie is wrong accusing him, which is correct - and Annie knows that. I see it as more "knows that" than "none realized this yet". After all, for her it was enough to jab him a little, but it seems not to affect her other actions. Jack telling Annie that she has "Problems" may make things worse. Annie knows this already. That was why she remained in the Wood - one reason, anyway. It's just that now she tries to deal with her problems in a new way.
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Post by hal9000 on Sept 8, 2011 1:40:42 GMT
It's perfectly understandable for Annie to be angry, but that doesn't even remotely justify or mitigate acting on that anger by blaming the victim of what is essentially mind rape and/or mind control and then actively trying to take "revenge" on him for someone else's actions.
Jack's completely correct in calling her out for it, too.
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Post by Stately Buff-Cookie on Sept 8, 2011 2:13:18 GMT
(Note, also, that the early chapters were narrated by Annie, though the narration stops after early Chapter Fifteen. So we're getting those early stories through a filter - and in the more recent ones, we're probably seeing Annie from outside rather than from inside.) Uuhhh.. No. Narrator Annie already knows when her father is going to show up. She said as much. Annie has also never shown any indication of being an unreliable narrator. So speculation on such would be useless.
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Post by Afalstein on Sept 8, 2011 3:27:47 GMT
I've already finished being surprised that some people here will forgive the forest anything, but now I'm surprised all over again that they're willing to do the same for Annie. I'd say a lot of that has to do with the fact that her attempt was unsuccessful. If she'd honestly hurt Jack in the same way that she did, say, Renard, there'd be a lot more people mad at her. The fact that Jack basically blew it off makes Annie's act seem a lot less reprehensible than it actually is. I understand WHY Annie is still mad at Jack--the betrayal happened, and the fact that it wasn't his fault probably doesn't make her feel any better--but she should have fought against it (as perhaps she was doing during Fire Spike), and gotten over the whole thing. In any case, she shouldn't have taken THIS form of revenge. Of course, it totally failed. Am I the only one who enjoys watching Annie get taken down a peg for once?
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mariposa
Full Member
Hi, I'm Elise!
Posts: 149
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Post by mariposa on Sept 8, 2011 4:30:27 GMT
I am the only one who thinks everything makes sense now? I think they're each being as honest with each other as they are with themselves. also: just because Annie's justifications are irrational doesn't mean she's lying.
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daredevil
New Member
My thoughts are webs. My ideas, spiders.
Posts: 2
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Post by daredevil on Sept 8, 2011 10:25:14 GMT
This is my first post. ;D I am the only one who thinks everything makes sense now? I think they're each being as honest with each other as they are with themselves. also: just because Annie's justifications are irrational doesn't mean she's lying. Nope. I agree. Annie has been bottling up her emotions for years. We see that she is trying to be more free spirited and open now. This is not something she is used to. It's inevitable that she would also stop repressing her arguably petty emotions as well as her more noble ones. I'm curious if this will be a learning experience for her and help her learn how to moderate between self control and open expression. Wow. Character development and mistakes by a protagonist. There is some interesting stuff here.
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Post by animagus on Sept 8, 2011 11:20:07 GMT
I think the sequence of events was this:
1. Annie flirted with Jack, partially to get revenge and partially because she is attracted to him and was hurt by his earlier betrayal. Keep in mind that she just spent the Summer with Coyote who is a master manipulator, so she's likely trying to stretch her wings in manipulating other people. She's pretty inexperienced with other people (relatively) since she was raised in a hospital rather than around other children, so her reactions are behaviors are always going to be a bit different than standard.
2. Jack was quick enough to turn it around on her and make up a face-saving story about Zimmy, who he is clearly not attracted to and turn it back around on Annie. He is obviously attracted to her and was hurt, but he's also clever and tricky, spiders or no spiders.
3. Annie is now even more angry at Jack and he is angry at her. This by no means indicates that they will never get together, since both of them are also clearly attracted to each other, and part of why they're both angry is because they're both having their feelings manipulated by the other. I'd say: 1. Annie is genuinely attracted to Jack, and believes he is genuinely attracted to her. 2. Annie learns what she is, and eventually comes to contemplate all the awkward ramifications her nature will have on her romantic prospects--particularly the reluctance that a man who loves her would feel toward procreation, knowing it would mean her death. (I mean how do you think Surma ended up with Anthony and not Eglamore?) 3. Kat encourages Annie to give Jack the "let's be friends" talk. 4. At the rule-breaking party, Jack compliments Annie and shows interest in her stories, feeding a deep psychological need within her that she usually must rely on Kat for. (But, gosh golly it's a cute boy saying these things!) Annie delays in initiating "the talk". 5. The talk turns toward etheric matters. Annie looks over at Bud, and Kat gives her a supportive double thumbs-up. Annie waves back awkwardly. 6. Jack asks her to give him her blinker stone. (Does he know that they are traditionally gifts between couples?) She doesn't answer, so he reframes discussion (unless he really doesn't know) and asks if he can simply borrow it. Annie hesitates, but doesn't know how to deny the request smoothly. 7. They go up on the balcony. Jack seems ready to reveal his (hopefully complimentary) observations about the new Annie. She procrastinates some more, but instead he makes his move. 8. Annie deftly avoids kootieville. She undeftly begins "the talk," not with "I like you but I'm not even close to ready for a relationship," or "I don't like you in that way," but instead with "I don't think I like you very much." Either: 9a. She phrased it in an odd way because she's Annie, or, 9b. She intended to follow up with something along the lines of: "Because I'm seriously considering kissing you even though I know you will end up getting hurt if I do." 9c. If she was just trying to hurt him, she could have (while his hormones were still at critical mass) said, "You're stupid if you think you ever had a chance with me. By the way, thanks for zapping Renard and leaving me behind at the power station." 10. Jack phews, saving Annie from having to let him down easy, but also seriously bursting her bubble. 11. Some stuff about Zimmy. Annie resents the notion that he finds Zimmy at least (if not more) attractive than her. Whether Jack is being completely honest or not, Annie believes his story. 12. Jack, in his typical blunt fashion, confronts Annie about her leading him on. He asks if it is some sort of convoluted revenge. Annie can either, 13a. Explain her true feelings, (which may be difficult for her, believing that she was his 2nd choice and also being pissed off and in no mood to acknowledge his obvious sexiness.) or 13b. Use the excuse of the revenge motive he suggested, or 13c. Invent an all-new motive that partly justifies her douchebaggery, while also making it clear that she is less attracted to him than he is to her.
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Post by Polly Plummer on Sept 8, 2011 15:00:00 GMT
I just started to like Jack more. This page made me laugh.
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Post by nikita on Sept 8, 2011 16:41:48 GMT
Circumstances. Upon which it is pointless to take out your frustrations. Thats correct, but people usually need someone to blame. This kind of behavior can bee seen all the time all around the world. In particular when there was some cruel murder. Usually, people will call more or less openly for the death or at least some kind of punishment for the perpetrator. But when he already killed himself, people still can't lean back and tell themselves "Oh well, he already punished himself, alright." They will then seek for someone else to blame and harass: the government, organizations, groups of which the murderer was member, people who they simply don't like ... people want someone they can punish. I don't like what Annie did, I'm only trying to understand what's going on.
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Post by digikitty on Sept 8, 2011 20:21:50 GMT
12. Jack, in his typical blunt fashion, confronts Annie about her leading him on. He asks if it is some sort of convoluted revenge. Annie can either, 13a. Explain her true feelings, (which may be difficult for her, believing that she was his 2nd choice and also being pissed off and in no mood to acknowledge his obvious sexiness.) or 13b. Use the excuse of the revenge motive he suggested, or 13c. Invent an all-new motive that partly justifies her douchebaggery, while also making it clear that she is less attracted to him than he is to her. thanks for mentioning that, because I was going to say something along the same lines. I'm not entirely buying that Annie set this all up as a means for revenge over what happened in the power station. I DO think that she pulled it up as a reason because Jack suggested that she was acting as she did for the sake of revenge. Annie bruised Jack's ego a bit when she said she didn't like him very much. So, Jack shot back with his liking Zimmy, which bruised Annie's ego as well, and then kept going with it. So when Jack offered her a chance to shoot back, she did, with a reason that Jack suggested. So really, its both of them at fault for this argument/misunderstanding, in my opinion.
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Post by nero on Sept 8, 2011 21:54:07 GMT
It seems like Annie and Jack are done talking but if something happens do you think we'll see bud take action?
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Post by hargharg on Sept 8, 2011 22:18:33 GMT
Waaaah, all these assumptions about who's leading who and who's falling for whose trick and who's lying to who. Once Annie or/and Jack are angry, I will start believing what they are saying! : D
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Post by TBeholder on Sept 10, 2011 14:00:44 GMT
I understand WHY Annie is still mad at Jack--the betrayal happened, and the fact that it wasn't his fault probably doesn't make her feel any better--but she should have fought against it (as perhaps she was doing during Fire Spike), and gotten over the whole thing. All things considered - such as "how nasty Annie can be when she doesn't hold back", probably she tried and it's what little of her displeasure remained after that. Jack just doesn't know the right scale... unfortunately... for him, if he'll manage to step on her toes hard enough to get the material for educated comparison.
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