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Post by fuzzysocks on Sept 7, 2011 10:23:27 GMT
And welcome riahk! :>
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Post by kurikaesu on Sept 7, 2011 10:29:28 GMT
Long time lurker, first time poster. I've been really enjoying the polarizing effect this chapter's had on the fandom. Everyone's opinions seem to be changing by the minute.
The reason I'm finally coming out of the woodworks is how authentic this whole thing has been in it's awkwardness. I've gotten the feeling that a lot of the fandom feels that Annie should be a lot for mature and level-headed, not as spiteful or emotional... While forgetting that she's a thirteen year old girl probably just starting puberty. There was going to be a romantic interest popping up eventually; because by 13 or 14 most girls are really starting to notice and like boys. Annie's no different.
I also think that, with her body language the past few pages, Annie was flirting with Jack, and is now trying to recover from the fact that she was just rejected. There was no gambit involved here, no revenge plot in the name of Reynardine. She's a young girl who was just rejected by a crush, and instead of leaving like Paz did to collect herself, she's trying to save face. And since Jack's going on about Zimmy, it adds salt to the wound. She's likely to get mad. Her flirting went awry; I'd be a bit angry if my current object of flirtation dropped the game and proclaimed over for the creepy girl who never bathes, has a burmie accent, and is seriously in a relationship with another girl (that may be borderline abusive)
But it could just be me...
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Post by eruedraith on Sept 7, 2011 10:58:03 GMT
C'mon, Jack! First you're smooth, then you're crazy, and then you hit us with the puppy eyes.
Make up your mind.
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Post by mikeymikemikey on Sept 7, 2011 11:23:51 GMT
Wow, so Annie was serious too. And, huh, she shows she's still not gotten over her propensity to hold grudges--even if she acknowledges that it wasn't really Jack's fault. Poor form, Carver. Poor form. C'mon, Jack! First you're smooth, then you're crazy, and then you hit us with the puppy eyes. Make up your mind. I dunno, I think it makes him more unpredictably erratic. One of the best ways to catch people off guard! EDIT: Seriously, though, I'm loving how Jack's now apparently pretty good at reading people. He saw right though Annie, played along, confused the hell out of her with his rapid shifting of mannerisms, and then calmly calls her out at the end. The boy can make one hell of an awesome trickster if he keeps this up. EDIT Jr.: On reading it a second time after the awesome ha-has at Jack being apparently good at reading people now wearing off, I'm starting to wonder. Is Annie actually serious about this reason, or is there some other underlying reason here? Now I'm not so sure.
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Post by todd on Sept 7, 2011 11:33:32 GMT
The reason I'm finally coming out of the woodworks is how authentic this whole thing has been in it's awkwardness. I've gotten the feeling that a lot of the fandom feels that Annie should be a lot for mature and level-headed, not as spiteful or emotional... While forgetting that she's a thirteen year old girl probably just starting puberty. There was going to be a romantic interest popping up eventually; because by 13 or 14 most girls are really starting to notice and like boys. Annie's no different. Count me as one person who found Annie's recent behavior astonishing in the way that you mention, after seeing her introduced in the early chapters as this seemingly sensible, wise-beyond-her-years, logical girl (who certainly seemed to have no interest in romance - which last part was why I found her apparent flirting with Jack so startling). But I've been wondering for a while if that might be the point. Some readers have commented that Annie seems (or seemed, in the early chapters) Mary-Sueish. Perhaps that was the point. Annie comes to the Court convinced that she can handle anything etheric, as a result of her experiences in Good Hope. She might well have had an exaggerated notion of her capabilities, without realizing that not all etheric beings are like the Guides and that the skills that can be used to solve the problem of a boy who burnt himself and his family up by playing with fire and doesn't realize he's dead may not be so useful for solving other problems. Hence she tries solving everything herself, never goes to the grown-ups for help even when it becomes clear that they know far more about what's going on than she does and probably would have been able to solve those problems far better, etc. If we see Annie at this point the way she sees herself, then we can feel her shock and confusion when her attempts at problem-solving go wrong (and how). I don't think that Annie thought of herself as a Mary Sue (it's not a complimentary term), but I do think that she believed that she was far more capable at handling things than she really was. (Note, also, that the early chapters were narrated by Annie, though the narration stops after early Chapter Fifteen. So we're getting those early stories through a filter - and in the more recent ones, we're probably seeing Annie from outside rather than from inside.) If the first chapter existed by itself, Annie would certainly seem sensible and level-headed in how she handled Shadow2's problem. But the chapters that followed show that she didn't do such a good job of solving it. Robot got possessed when he entered the Woods, leading to new trouble between the Court and the Wood - not to mention that now he's showing signs of potentially dangerous religious fanaticism (see the end of the last chapter), suggesting that maybe the Court or the robot community had the right idea in disassembling him. On top of it all, Shadow2 came back to live in the Court. Perhaps the Annie of the opening chapters was less "the real Annie" and more her "self-image", and the Annie of the more recent chapters is how she really is underneath the facade.
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Post by rainofsteel on Sept 7, 2011 12:08:03 GMT
Wow.
That was mean-spirited, petty, and downright low.
Annie knew Jack was suffering from outside control, but is blaming him for it anyway. That is a little like blaming an assault victim for the assault.
My opinion of Annie has just taken a nosedive.
Unless, of course, we find out Annie has wound up under a similar effect after her summer in the forest. Her personality transformation still has yet to be explained to my satisfaction.
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Cascal
Junior Member
its DO or DIE now!
Posts: 63
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Post by Cascal on Sept 7, 2011 12:31:07 GMT
Tom Siddell: Master troll
I mean seriously, it feels like no one is sure about anything about this chapter anymore
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Post by todd on Sept 7, 2011 12:48:58 GMT
Annie knew Jack was suffering from outside control, but is blaming him for it anyway. That is a little like blaming an assault victim for the assault. I agree. The best I can say here is that Jack wouldn't have been possessed in the first place if he hadn't been sneaking about after dark, which he did of his own free will - and since Annie has done the same thing (as have Kat and many of the other kids, for that matter) - she's in no position to castigate him for that. (I sometimes wonder how common rule-breaking is among the children at the Court. Is this kind of sneaking out the norm among them? If, as some people have speculated, the Court secretly encourages that kind of behavior while seeming to forbid it, it might well be.)
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Post by sunday on Sept 7, 2011 13:01:16 GMT
if one of them is telling the truth, i don`t get 799 or 917 pages at all actually, i still see here a typical plot for a girl movie, but this is the first time i really like it. whats more, i can even see logic in their behaviour. it`s never happened before (oh, i just remembered that i was supposed to comment on this page) hmm, i love it, what did you expect
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Post by sunday on Sept 7, 2011 13:05:25 GMT
also, i must admit that Tom is a real magician clap-clap
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Post by nikita on Sept 7, 2011 13:23:08 GMT
I can understand her. Jack* has spied on her via the computer, talked badly about her dad, lured her to the power station, lied to her in order to attack Renard[1], left her there alone to deal with his shit. And now all of a sudden it's "You are not allowed to blame him for what he did." Then who is there left to actually take the blame? Annie. Sounds somewhat far-fetched? What about: "You got some strange ideas about revenge". Jack* did all this, but now he acts as if he got it all figured out and it's her who is told that she "problems" - who is demanded to sort herself out. Even though nothing of this was her fault.
[1]whom she doesn't call Renardine anymore, since she learned how he came to that name?
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Post by TBeholder on Sept 7, 2011 13:34:32 GMT
This also explains why she was extra icy towards him the last time they met. I guess the summer in the forest gave her the idea to play a mean trick instead of bottling up that resentment. Annie tries to get over it, if panel 6 indicates anything. This doesn't prevent her from trying to help Jack in things that matters, however. She hisses and jabs while walking along. I was right, she is cruel. :< Compared to her little discussion with Renard? Chewing Mort? A scene calculated to made Eggers look like an incompetent jerk before his old friends? Annie's a cute little kitten now, considering. Then again, Jack didn't appear to intentionally step on her sore spots... yet. ;D Long time lurker, first time poster. I've been really enjoying the polarizing effect this chapter's had on the fandom. A long time lurker should know it's not something unusual to specify this chapter. But yeah, the opinion-fest amuses me every time too. The reason I'm finally coming out of the woodworks is how authentic this whole thing has been in it's awkwardness. I've gotten the feeling that a lot of the fandom feels that Annie should be a lot for mature and level-headed, not as spiteful or emotional... Ah, but she is. On her measures. While forgetting that she's a thirteen year old girl probably just starting puberty. There was going to be a romantic interest popping up eventually; because by 13 or 14 most girls are really starting to notice and like boys. Annie's no different. Ah, but she is. What with her temper and unusual... life cycle. Let alone what she was through. C'mon, Jack! First you're smooth, then you're crazy, and then you hit us with the puppy eyes. Make up your mind. Maybe after the close encounter of the wrong kind with whitelegs he would require Smitface's presence to have any chance at THAT any time soon. I mean seriously, it feels like no one is sure about anything about this chapter anymore Unlike when? And if we discard cases when everyone who was sure turned out to be wrong... if one of them is telling the truth, i don`t get 799 or 917 pages at all The simplest solution would be that both have troubles themselves sorting through their own feelings. Jack more so, understandably.
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Post by mikeymikemikey on Sept 7, 2011 13:38:59 GMT
I can understand her. Jack* has spied on her via the computer, talked badly about her dad, lured her to the power station, lied to her in order to attack Renard[1], left her there alone to deal with his shit. And now all of a sudden it's "You are not allowed to blame him for what he did." Then who is there left to actually take the blame? Annie. Sounds somewhat far-fetched? What about: "You got some strange ideas about revenge". Jack* did all this, but now he acts as if he got it all figured out and it's her who is told that she "problems" - who is demanded to sort herself out. Even though nothing of this was her fault. [1]whom she doesn't call Renardine anymore, since she learned how he came to that name? Okay, what? Is something lost in translation here? Because from what I can understand, you seem to say Annie is right for blaming Jack for all of those you mentioned. Is that what you mean? So the Spider gets no blame at all just because it was using Jack's body? By that logic, if someone holds your family hostage and threatens to kill them if you don't follow his orders, then you're completely to blame for anything he makes you do.
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Post by Afalstein on Sept 7, 2011 13:49:50 GMT
Well... I started by thinking they were both joking, and now I'm pretty convinced they're both serious. Tom's Twitter comment about trolling now makes sense: "Whenever something happens in a story, the author is trolling you. Like: 'I am your Father?' Such a troll." Tom was serious the whole time, and we kept assuming he was joking. The guy must get pretty annoyed with us at times. Wow. That was mean-spirited, petty, and downright low. Annie knew Jack was suffering from outside control, but is blaming him for it anyway. That is a little like blaming an assault victim for the assault. Eh... More like blaming a madman for beating you. Or a drunk, though in that case, it's the person's FAULT they don't have control over their actions. Annie knows that Jack didn't have any control over what he did, but the fact remains that he did it. The knowledge doesn't necessarily make the feeling of betrayal go away.
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Rafael
Full Member
Cute and spunky
Posts: 202
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Post by Rafael on Sept 7, 2011 14:43:06 GMT
Some really good analyses in this thread. But I still don't know what to think. And I suppose Friday will be no more elucidating than today was.
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Post by fronzel on Sept 7, 2011 14:51:54 GMT
OK, now that I can read the last few strips with that in mind, I completely do not buy- 1. That Annie doesn't like him. She's tried to convince herself she doesn't like him, but come on Annie, you scooted up next to him and let him put his hands on you, and your "revenge" is nonsensical. 2. That Jack doesn't like her. Now that we know Annie's tone was meant to be mean, not playful, look at www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=931 again and tell me that Jack isn't momentarily at a complete loss before he invents the "phew" and the Zimmy story. 3. That Jack is crazy. That was an act to get back at Annie for being an ass. Some people will just never give up a point of view even when shown clear and direct evidence that it's wrong.
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Post by eightyfour on Sept 7, 2011 14:56:48 GMT
I'm gonna go a bit off topic here and pick up on Tom's formspring comments about "trolling", in the context of current story development. I'm aware that the meaning of the term has shifted a bit over time, but let's try to remember that, originally, "troll" is a quite deprecative term. Originally, a "troll" is someone who intentionally derails online discussions (or starts them under a false pretense) with the sole purpose of inciting strong emotional responses. A "troll" has no interest in the topic that is being discussed and no respect for the "audience" (i.e. the people contributing to the discussion). His only aim is to ridicule and mock people. A troll is the internet version of a schoolyard bully. Leading readers of a story (and/or characters inside a story) to believe one thing only to have the ground pulled away under their feet by having the story take an unexpected turn has nothing to do with trolling. This is called a plot twist, and is a very basic tool pretty much every fiction writer uses. Granted though, it can have similar effects, especially if done badly (inciting strong emotions and "derailing" the story, i.e. making readers lose interest). However, the intentions are completely different.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Sept 7, 2011 15:00:20 GMT
I stand corrected, formspring appears to say she was leading him on intentionally. Since it was formspring'd earlier that they didn't know why they were meeting in the beginning of the Fire Spike chapter I now theorize that this was something that evolved. My revised opinion: She didn't know if she liked him or not in the beginning, and over time decided not and then anticipated getting some payback with the turn-down. Children can be cruel. Also: Welcome to the forums, Kurikaesu and Sunday! There is an introduction thread around somewhere if you wish (participation voluntary).
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Post by nikita on Sept 7, 2011 15:44:20 GMT
I can understand her. Jack* has spied on her via the computer, talked badly about her dad, lured her to the power station, lied to her in order to attack Renard[1], left her there alone to deal with his shit. And now all of a sudden it's "You are not allowed to blame him for what he did." Then who is there left to actually take the blame? Annie. Sounds somewhat far-fetched? What about: "You got some strange ideas about revenge". Jack* did all this, but now he acts as if he got it all figured out and it's her who is told that she "problems" - who is demanded to sort herself out. Even though nothing of this was her fault. [1]whom she doesn't call Renardine anymore, since she learned how he came to that name? Okay, what? Is something lost in translation here? Because from what I can understand, you seem to say Annie is right for blaming Jack for all of those you mentioned. Is that what you mean? So the Spider gets no blame at all just because it was using Jack's body? I'm saying that it is only human for Annie to be mad and she absolutely has the right to be mad. However, she is unable to find someone to blame, who she can yell at, because everyone has a valid excuse. Well except for the spider, but the spider is a part of Zimmy and she can't be blamed for what she is. The problem is, that none of the two realized this yet. Jack believes that Annie is wrong accusing him, which is correct - and Annie knows that. But it doesn't help her in dealing with her anger at all. Jack telling Annie that she has "Problems" may make things worse. It will be interesting to see whether they can resolve this. Disclaimer: The chapter isn't over yet.
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neal
Full Member
Posts: 166
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Post by neal on Sept 7, 2011 16:43:02 GMT
I was thinking about it, and this is one of the few stories I can think of where the main character has an honest-to-god mean streak. Annie is a great character, she is brave, strong, resourceful, smart, and talented. But this is not the first time we've seen her intentionally trying to hurt someone.
It is FASCINATING. Wow! It is great!
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Post by Rex on Sept 7, 2011 17:19:13 GMT
Wow, Annie is really vindictive. Like others have said, Kat was the one who told her to speak with Jack so this nasty little plan was concocted on the fly. Great post from hal9000 showing Annie's various acts of cruelty. The one toward Renard and this situation stand out because she gleefully sniped the target of her fury.
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Post by rylfrazier on Sept 7, 2011 17:50:36 GMT
I think the sequence of events was this:
1. Annie flirted with Jack, partially to get revenge and partially because she is attracted to him and was hurt by his earlier betrayal. Keep in mind that she just spent the Summer with Coyote who is a master manipulator, so she's likely trying to stretch her wings in manipulating other people. She's pretty inexperienced with other people (relatively) since she was raised in a hospital rather than around other children, so her reactions are behaviors are always going to be a bit different than standard.
2. Jack was quick enough to turn it around on her and make up a face-saving story about Zimmy, who he is clearly not attracted to and turn it back around on Annie. He is obviously attracted to her and was hurt, but he's also clever and tricky, spiders or no spiders.
3. Annie is now even more angry at Jack and he is angry at her. This by no means indicates that they will never get together, since both of them are also clearly attracted to each other, and part of why they're both angry is because they're both having their feelings manipulated by the other.
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Post by atteSmythe on Sept 7, 2011 18:03:36 GMT
Hm. Assuming that everything is as it seems now (an admittedly bad assumption this chapter!) it would appear that Annie learned nothing at all from her spat with Reynard last fall. Or, more worryingly, learned all the wrong things.
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Post by hargharg on Sept 7, 2011 18:13:34 GMT
Way to play the victim card, Jack. Annie is being petty with this, if its true, but as nikita says: there's noone to blame, and this was Annie's way to blow off some steam. Not to mention, from where should Annie know Jack has nothing to do with what the spider did (I really don't remember, could someone please link me the comic)?
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Post by rylfrazier on Sept 7, 2011 18:18:54 GMT
I don't think saying that Spider Jack and Regular Jack are completely different people and that Jack has no responsibility for what he did under the spider's influence is accurate.
The spider pushed jack to do some things he otherwise probably wouldn't have done, but his personality and spider jack's personality (breaking the rules, tinkering with electronics, figuring things out, being interested in annie) have a lot of things in common. It's completely rational for Annie to still be mad at Jack for things he did under the Spider's influence, since she doesn't have a bright line way to determine how much of that was Jack and how much was the spider.
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Anthony
Full Member
No, not THAT guy.
Posts: 112
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Post by Anthony on Sept 7, 2011 18:43:54 GMT
So, if Annie tells truth in this page then all this so-called date was a lie. Annie pretended she liked Jack to have her revenge, and Jack pretended he liked Annie... well, because he is Jack.
Creepy.
Really, I think when Annie told Jack she doesn't like him, she was going to tease him a bit. But since it all went completely wrong, she has to make up an explaination (the revenge).
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Post by Mezzaphor on Sept 7, 2011 18:56:34 GMT
This is just another one of those things where I'm going to have to wait until the dust settles before I try to figure out what's going on.
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Post by 0o0f on Sept 7, 2011 19:15:23 GMT
Also, flirting with him seemed to be coming a bit too naturally to her earlier She sure is taking after her mother, huh?
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Post by Max on Sept 7, 2011 19:27:45 GMT
Not to mention, from where should Annie know Jack has nothing to do with what the spider did (I really don't remember, could someone please link me the comic)? 742
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Post by nero on Sept 7, 2011 19:40:40 GMT
It seems like there is something Annie isn't saying. If I was her I would say it was revenge for the guard bot he killed. I don't like the idea of Annie's revenge or that she might have had a crush on Jack. I don't think Kat knew anything about her plan.
Annie might have decided to do this when she heard of the meeting. I think if she really meant to have revenge, that she did it to crush him quickly so that she as a fire elemental doesn't have to bother with the trouble of someone liking her. She might be misplacing hatred on Jack because she is still upset that she is the cause of her mother's death. She might hate the idea of love because it lead to her mother's death.
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