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Post by bellerophon on May 17, 2011 1:52:46 GMT
No guide came for the robot guard and he is apparently a Diego robot, therefore he is apparently an electrical appliance. As I understand it, later generation robots like the guard robot were built after Diego, possibly by the earlier robots, and are on principles that are more easily understood by Kat. It's why the early ones puzzled her so much and normal ones don't. Anyway, I'm leaning towards the heart having something to do with the Seed Bismuth. (Ooo, imagine if the seed bismuth let them grow mechanical things organically... buildings even... and one of the big mysteries of the comic is why the court goes on forever beyond what might be useful in terms of size. What if it just never stopped growing. I see the beginnings of a theory here)
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Post by aaroncampbell on May 17, 2011 3:51:13 GMT
Welcome, frabaert! Fantastic catch! It's hard to tell from the graininess of that picture, but it may be that Kat is holding the same drawing that Diego had by his side at his deathbed. Crazy!
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Post by imaginaryfriend on May 17, 2011 4:29:52 GMT
The psychopomps didn't come for Surma either; there was still enough left of her that Annie had to escort her to the other side. This implies that, in the Gunnerverse, having a soul is not an all-or-nothing proposition. The lack of a Guide for robots does not prove that robots lack a soul; it just indicates that robots lack the part of the soul that the Guides are interested in. Then where are all the robot ghosts? Shouldn't Antimony be able to see them? I think the fact that the TicTocs look nothing like any of the other robots is rather strong evidence against Diego having created them. That and the fact that the robots themselves don't think Diego created them. I'm not sure that the robots are a reliable authority on the origin of the Tic-Toc birds. What the robot Antimony questioned said right before denying Diego made them was, "It is the tic-toc, a mythical ornithonic, said to be older than the Court itself. It was created by a divine being and sent to watch over us all." We know the Tic-tocs are not mythical and there appears to be more than one. I tentatively draw from what the robot said that the Tic-tocs predate the robots because if it was the other way around one would figure the robots would know more about their origin; if Diego had a rival or a mentor he might mention that person, if he made them after the robots they would've probably helped with their assembly. I also question their motives for watching and the divinity of their creator. Considering the events preceding and following the creation of the Annan waters I think Diego would have an interest in making something that could keep an eye on things. We only have the small robots like he gave to Jeanne as examples of what he was capable of back then (unless you count the arrow, which proves he had some etheric science bent) but it wouldn't surprise me that there would have to be an intermediate step between those little robots and the full-sized ones before "Jeanne's tomb." Feathered copies might look like real birds from a distance, and spy-birds wouldn't be associated with the Court. Now, Ysengrin seemed to think that they were made with Court technology; I do not consider him an expert on matters technological and beyond that he had/has a motive to accuse the Court of trespassing via proxy. Crushing the bird before the Court could get a good look at it destroys any evidence, but from what Antimony saw with an extended look at close range and what everybody saw in the "throne" room at a distance didn't lead anyone to believe otherwise. So, I accept that whatever the Tic-tocs are they are at the very least close enough to Court technology to pass a fast visual inspection. Add to that the reasoned assumption that they are older than the robots. Who would be building something like that within that time frame but Diego? True, there may yet be an unrevealed mentor or rival but why hasn't there been any mention of such, and why would he allow the robots to revere the creation of someone else? [Apologies for not linking to all the refs, my dialup is acting up again and it's taking forever.]
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Post by imaginaryfriend on May 17, 2011 5:41:46 GMT
Double post! As I understand it, later generation robots like the guard robot were built after Diego, possibly by the earlier robots, and are on principles that are more easily understood by Kat. It's why the early ones puzzled her so much and normal ones don't. I can't find the ref right now but that is my understanding as well. The robots started building new bodies because they were having trouble maintaining their original Diego-designed ones. It has been formspring'd that the robots had to learn how after Diego died.It has also been formspring'd that the robots are not only building and maintaining new bodies, but making new CPUs too.
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Post by Mezzaphor on May 17, 2011 6:20:18 GMT
The psychopomps didn't come for Surma either; there was still enough left of her that Annie had to escort her to the other side. This implies that, in the Gunnerverse, having a soul is not an all-or-nothing proposition. The lack of a Guide for robots does not prove that robots lack a soul; it just indicates that robots lack the part of the soul that the Guides are interested in. Then where are all the robot ghosts? Shouldn't Antimony be able to see them? Now, there's a good argument that the robots lack souls. We also know that the Court had been trying to capture and study one for some time prior to the parlay in ch 14, and had failed to do so. This implies a degree of elusiveness that could easily lead someone in the Court to doubt the TicTocs' existence, and to get confused over their numbers. Thus, a very real creature becomes regarded as mythical. The only reason that we know there's more than one of them is because they flocked to Annie's rescue in ch 8; everywhere else we've only seen one at a time. On what basis? We know that divine beings -- capable of making creatures even more complex than mechanical birds -- exist in the Gunnerverse. Intermediates that don't look like their predecessors or like their descendents. I'm pretty sure Tom has outright said that the TicTocs are made with Court technology (but I can't find the source at the moment). Or, as the robots claim, older than the Court itself. That's a pretty vague time frame. Did Diego start building robots before or after the initial immigration to Gillitie? Or the treaty at which the Court was formed? Or the schism between the Court and the forest? So, ignorance of a rival to Diego's automaton-making is evidence against the hypothesis that such a person existed. But ignorance of Diego having built the TicTocs is not evidence against the hypothesis that he did so. But someone else capable of making these robots has been mentioned. The robots referred to this person as a divine being. Why no mention of this being outside the robots' collective memory? Probably the same reason there's no mention of this guy outside the robots' memory either. Why wouldn't he? Aside from the Jeanne-related stuff, we don't know very much about Diego's relationship with the rest of the Court. What evidence is there that Diego would not respect the automaton-making skills of a worthy rival, or that he would prevent his robots from doing so? And how far back does the reverence for the mythical TicToc go, anyway? This behavior may have only emerged several robot generations after Diego's death. Something else interesting I found: "All the Court robots realise the Tic Tocs are not one of them. That's why they think it is a mythical creature."
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Post by socodax on May 17, 2011 6:22:28 GMT
Some speculation (that I don't think is so wild).
The Diego's seraphs are imbued with the natural elements - which you've probably already figured out, but hear me out. The people of the Court (which was divided from Nature) are hungry for knowledge. They're hungry for the magic that they were split from. However, they fail to possess it, so they have tried to answer it through science (i.e. harnessing the ether at the power station). Diego, however, seems to have bridged that gap with his robots.
Or, perhaps, they were built only to be used by the glass-eyed/shadow people. If I remember correctly, there have been ambiguous tensions with the Court. Could it be that the Court stole/coerced the shadow people to imbue these robots? Or, more broadly, to assist them in their research? I call to memory the tree hound in the flashback with Eglamore, Surma, etc. Shadow people were in that thing. Is it not possible that the Court has been using these shadow people for a long time?
Also, remember how Robot was able to be imbued with an arm, via Ysengrin. Nature and technology merged not only physically, but *mentally* (assuming some robots have basic cognitive function - which many appear to have). Robot had no idea what he was doing when he was crossing over the bridge.
Also, Kat's gonna have a hard time figuring out those schematics without understanding etherics, or someone who understands etherics... (*cough*Annie at the beginning of this chapter*cough*)
Just sayin'.
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Post by TBeholder on May 17, 2011 8:09:05 GMT
In the treatise, Jeanne's sword (with the arrow laid along it) is stabbing the heart and "tendrils" from the heart are wrapping around it. I wonder, too, if all the metaphorical references to hearts in chapter 30 might have something to do with this. If Kat and Annie had to destroy all the robots to free Jeanne, what would they do? But then, maybe all robots love Jeanne NOT because of Diego - what a twiiiiiiiiist! ;D Well, this would make things really awkward, yes. But on the other hand, probably all they'd need to remove the arrow without shutting down robots and thus having to trust Ysengrin is to tweak those Ether-distillery stations a little. But then, it would mess with Zimmy more. But then, could give her some high-ether water - just like that, in flasks. If it was a bit of a human soul in there some 'pomp would've appeared to claim it. Maybe, they need the whole thing? Or his dirty secret is not in the robots as such (again, the arrow). Also, it's nice to see Kat not being all like "oh no I can't use Diego's designs because he was bad so they are bad so I won't!!!" I would actually expect that from some other stories. Creative/inventive characters have a weird habit of declaring that they won't use a certain method (even if it really isn't bad) and will find their "own way." Which is stuuuuuuuuupid. The point is not whether "bad because they got unholy fingerprints on them", the point is what one tries to do in the first place. In this case, it's challenge: Kat competes with Diego, trying to outdo him. And won't stop until she proves one can do this well and better without being a mad creep. So it's still possible. Then where are all the robot ghosts? Shouldn't Antimony be able to see them? If they are individual, yes. If those are fragments or reflections of one, maybe not. It has also been formspring'd that the robots are not only building and maintaining new bodies, but making new CPUs too. Those robots on that facility made it, but this doesn't mean anyone can replicate it without the access to the original. Also, remember how Robot was able to be imbued with an arm, via Ysengrin. Nature and technology merged not only physically, but *mentally* (assuming some robots have basic cognitive function - which many appear to have). Robot had no idea what he was doing when he was crossing over the bridge. Precisely. Ysengrin put S13 under control of his saboteur. If there was some poor sod inside to begin with, 'Grin could free him, control him, or if it's impossible, destroy. It all would make sense, but why he'd send one back in coma? So, no shadows in ECPUs.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on May 17, 2011 14:18:27 GMT
Then where are all the robot ghosts? Shouldn't Antimony be able to see them? Now, there's a good argument that the robots lack souls. Antimony is a medium. She has a knack for seeing 'pomps and ghosts. She doesn't appear to find the robots creepy and she doesn't see either a 'pomp or a soul (or fragment thereof) when a robot gets destroyed. So, I think it's a legit question when I ask where the robot ghosts are if robots have souls. We've seen a Tic-toc, a robot guard and a bull-bot get wrecked, there must've been other robots destroyed over the years. If they exist they must be stacking up somewhere, yes? Maybe, they need the whole thing? Or his dirty secret is not in the robots as such (again, the arrow). Maybe but if the robots were powered by stolen souls (either Jeanne's via the arrow or whole/bits from random folk) I would expect Antimony to be ill at ease around them and 'pomps asking her to help them. On what basis? We know that divine beings -- capable of making creatures even more complex than mechanical birds -- exist in the Gunnerverse. But why would they need to make semi-realistic tick-tocking robot birds? I would think that any divine being could make real spy-birds. With cool powers. Intermediates that don't look like their predecessors or like their descendents. But they do look like birds, and birds are more simple than humanoids, therefore easier to make life-sized. That's a pretty vague time frame. Did Diego start building robots before or after the initial immigration to Gillitie? Or the treaty at which the Court was formed? Or the schism between the Court and the forest? Unknown but Court technology existent and robots nonexistent means that they were built after the establishment of the group that formed the Court but before the construction of Jeanne's "tomb," assuming we've got it right. So, ignorance of a rival to Diego's automaton-making is evidence against the hypothesis that such a person existed. But ignorance of Diego having built the TicTocs is not evidence against the hypothesis that he did so. It's evidence, I just don't find what the robots say to be credible and so consider it to be poor evidence. There is no other character who's been introduced in the comic who could've made Tic-tocs within the time frame. The "divine" creator of Tic-tocs being not Diego hangs on the statement of a single robot who got two things demonstrably wrong about Tic-tocs in the same page. Me leaving the door open for the possibility I'm wrong is not the same thing as an argument from ignorance. Why wouldn't he? Aside from the Jeanne-related stuff, we don't know very much about Diego's relationship with the rest of the Court. What evidence is there that Diego would not respect the automaton-making skills of a worthy rival, or that he would prevent his robots from doing so? Diego appears to have preserved some negative memory of Young in the laser cows (perhaps including that one asking Eggers not to touch him). I would think that if the Tic-tocs were the creation of a rival then there would be some wariness or a sense of superiority against these things that watch them, not reverence. A mentor's creation would perhaps be revered, but with only Tic-tocs to go by Diego would appear to have surpassed his mentor. If so, then wouldn't Diego rightfully occupy a higher place in the robot pantheon and instill this sense in his "children" robots? Now I probably shouldn't mention this at this juncture because it will complicate things but I have wildspec'd another possibility. These Tic-tocs may not be the Tic-toc(s) of legend. It could be that someone wanted to make a surveillance system recently and took advantage of the Tic-toc legend as cover. Say, someone like Anthony Carver.
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Post by smjjames on May 17, 2011 15:22:16 GMT
He was talking about the tic-tocs then, which were not created by Diego. I still think it has something to do with trapping souls or spirits, human or otherwise, though I like the idea of Diego putting pieces of his own soul into the robots too. Diego has not been eliminated as a candidate for creating the Tic-Tocs. No guide came for the robot guard and he is apparently a Diego robot, therefore he is apparently an electrical appliance. If it was a bit of a human soul in there some 'pomp would've appeared to claim it. Also it has been formspring'd that there isn't a robot psychopomp. Given the religious-sounding stuff the robots believe I think that must mean that the synthetic souls are magical and not spiritual: a tweaked copy of Diego probably, but not Diego bits or other trapped people. Well, diego was the creator of the origional robots, which the modern ones are descendants of, so it can certainly sound religous in that sense. The part about Jeanne seems to have been deliberately programmed deeply into the robots, so much that they still have that piece of the programming.
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Post by jayne on May 17, 2011 15:23:06 GMT
"There is no other character who's been introduced in the comic who could've made Tic-tocs within the time frame." Yes, but it seems like Tom is using this as an introduction to a new character that made the Tic-tocs prior to the court's creation. The whole point of the robot's dialog is so Tom can give us information. Why bother having the robot say anything if it should be discarded? May be true: 1) the birds are called TicTocs 2) they are not like the rest of the robots at the court 3) They were not created by Diego 4) they were created before the creation of the court 5) the robots consider the TicToc birds to be important, since they put them at the top of their banner. 6) The robots know the tictoc birds "watch over us all" Probably not true: 1) Their creator was divine 2) They are mythical - I'm not sure if they think the birds are mythical or the origin of the birds is 'shrouded in myth' or like that. It seems unlikely that none of the court robots has seen them.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on May 17, 2011 17:19:15 GMT
Yes, but it seems like Tom is using this as an introduction to a new character that made the Tic-tocs prior to the court's creation. The whole point of the robot's dialog is so Tom can give us information. Why bother having the robot say anything if it should be discarded? You mean from a literary sense? Right or wrong, the collection of things that unnamed robot says does color in the robot society a bit, makes them more real. They hint at possible future revelations but contain statements difficult to reconcile with what we know (or think we know) about the story. What it does say is open to interpretation. Classic GC. If you mean from an inductive sense, not everyone who says things in the comic is right. [Jones- not a robot]
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Post by jayne on May 17, 2011 21:03:56 GMT
Yes, but it seems like Tom is using this as an introduction to a new character that made the Tic-tocs prior to the court's creation. The whole point of the robot's dialog is so Tom can give us information. Why bother having the robot say anything if it should be discarded? You mean from a literary sense? Right or wrong, the collection of things that unnamed robot says does color in the robot society a bit, makes them more real. They hint at possible future revelations but contain statements difficult to reconcile with what we know (or think we know) about the story. What it does say is open to interpretation. Classic GC. If you mean from an inductive sense, not everyone who says things in the comic is right. [Jones- not a robot] Yes, I'm taking the robot's dialog as a literary device. Tom's very good a making us second-guess ourselves but if he says outright that Diego didn't make the Tictoc birds, I think we should accept that as true. If he intended it to be 'did he or didn't he build the robots", Tom would have been more subtle about it. Just my opinion.
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Post by crater on May 17, 2011 21:45:21 GMT
But that would mean Diego is not only still alive, he cannot be killed until all of the robots are destroyed! Kat can me Mega Girl, Annie can be Protogirl. READY ::blip:: Also, it's nice to see Kat not being all like "oh no I can't use Diego's designs because he was bad so they are bad so I won't!!!" I would actually expect that from some other stories. Creative/inventive characters have a weird habit of declaring that they won't use a certain method (even if it really isn't bad) and will find their "own way." Which is stuuuuuuuuupid. Though in this case, there might still be a chance for Diego's methods to actually be bad freak Kat out again, as you guys have been saying. HEY! Sasuke wanted to "find his own way" so he wouldn't make Itachi his benifactor. If Deaigo was still alive Kat probably wouldn't use his schematics out of fear the terrible little man would benefit from her some how. But he is dead and gone forever, so she's cool with it.
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Post by Mezzaphor on May 18, 2011 1:00:17 GMT
But why would they need to make semi-realistic tick-tocking robot birds? I would think that any divine being could make real spy-birds. With cool powers. Well, real birds need to eat and poop. Real birds don't grow into machines when planted in the ground. Real birds are presumably more fragile than robots with metal skeletons. Any magic powers you give a real bird could (as far as we know) just as easily be given to a robot bird. Why make a real bird when you can make a robot that looks indistinguishable from a real bird until you autopsy it? Considering the square-cube law, making a fully-functional, proportional, miniature human ought to be harder than making a full-sized human. "Mythical" does not necessarily mean "untrue"; it can refer to something possessing other qualities of a myth. Using singular to speak of the entire species (and not individuals) is not an uncommon construction. In my own scientific writing, I've referred to "the black pecan aphid", and my readers understand that I'm referring to the species, not claiming that only one black pecan aphid exists in the world. So the robot was only demonstrably wrong if we assume that he intended the meanings that we know to be incorrect. Diego blamed Young for Jeanne's death; that's why he hated the man and either programmed or inspired his robots to hate as well. One of the recurring themes of the comic is that people are complicated. Note how Antimony's relationships with Renard and Ysengrin change over time. Note how a background character like Winsbury interacts with his classmates differently between Year 7 and Year 8. I think it's overly simplistic to assume that Diego would treat a rival roboticist and their creations -- completely unrelated to the business with Jeanne -- the same way he treated the man he blamed for Jeanne's death.
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Post by smjjames on May 18, 2011 1:44:50 GMT
Yea, the bull-bot could very well have been a parody of Young and that would explain why Robot felt hatred for that robot in www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=434 . Basically, the hatred of Mr Young (which got toned down for those who later took up Youngs position, which Eglamore is currently) and the sorrow of Jeanne is something that Diego hardcoded so deeply that the robots couldn't or wouldn't remove it when they had to make new chips and all for their descendants.
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Post by Tierra Y Libertad on May 18, 2011 2:23:18 GMT
Looks like Arabic to me! Does anyone here read/write Arabic? Note that although Diego is (presumably) from Spain, he might also know Arabic because of the Moorish influence on the culture of southern Spain.
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Post by Max on May 18, 2011 4:42:42 GMT
Man, it would be pretty cool if the court was actually founded during the Moorish occupation of Spain. Unlikely, but cool
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Post by imaginaryfriend on May 18, 2011 4:45:25 GMT
Tom's very good a making us second-guess ourselves but if he says outright that Diego didn't make the Tictoc birds, I think we should accept that as true. If he intended it to be 'did he or didn't he build the robots", Tom would have been more subtle about it. Just my opinion. A foil making a gospel infodump about one of the longest-running mysteries in the comic? Hm. While double-checking the crowd scenes in Fangs of Summertime to confirm no robots it occurred to me to check the Formspring again and I found this: "All the Court robots realize the Tic Tocs are not one of them. That's why they think it is a mythical creature." When asked, "So Diego created all the robots, but not the Tic Tocs? Will we ever find out who did create them?" Answer: yes But is that a yes to both or just one of those questions? My guess is that it is a yes we will find out who created them (eventually). What I ask myself is, how would the robot society know the things that the unnamed robot is saying? They could have firsthand knowledge of the timeline, so I am inclined to believe that. They haven't had the chance to examine a Tic-toc, apparently. There might have been a robot present when Coyote and Antimony first met but maybe not, as that one robotish silhouette looks awful lonely in that background crowd of people. It's not drawn anything like the powerstation crowd with a mix of robots and people. Because the Wood people detest all forms of technology, I figure that's just a blocky background person and robots were kept out of that meeting. As for the rest of the factoids, the robots would've had to learn them secondhand [at best] except for them being unlike the other robots [in some way], people calling them Tic-tocs [regardless of what their creator called them] and observing them watching [though not why]. It was also asked by eric815, "How has the Court never caught and inspected a Tic Toc if they've wanted to for a long time, and the Tic Tocs allegedly predate the Court?" Answer: Seems pretty odd, right?Yeah, something doesn't add up. Well, real birds need to eat and poop. Real birds don't grow into machines when planted in the ground. Real birds are presumably more fragile than robots with metal skeletons. Any magic powers you give a real bird could (as far as we know) just as easily be given to a robot bird. Why make a real bird when you can make a robot that looks indistinguishable from a real bird until you autopsy it? I think the constant ticking noise gives it away as being a mechanical bird. Beyond that I am not sure I agree that a magical bird would need to eat and poop; even if it did why would that be a problem? Pigeons do exist within the Court. Do shadow people eat and poop? Considering the square-cube law, making a fully-functional, proportional, miniature human ought to be harder than making a full-sized human. That's quite true but in order for that to be relevent you'll have to contend that Diego's miniature robots had the same level of functionality and autonomy that the ones at Jeanne's "tomb" had, and probably more than the modern Court robots have. We see the camera bot's head swivel a bit, he climbs a little. Mostly we see them standing still, even while being smashed. "Mythical" does not necessarily mean "untrue"; it can refer to something possessing other qualities of a myth. Using singular to speak of the entire species (and not individuals) is not an uncommon construction. In my own scientific writing, I've referred to "the black pecan aphid", and my readers understand that I'm referring to the species, not claiming that only one black pecan aphid exists in the world. I'm uncomfortable with referring to a class of nonliving objects in the singlar like that, as it would be like looking at a picture of a screwdriver in a hardware store and the sales clerk telling you, "That is the screwdriver, would you like to buy the screwdriver?" It's a bit awkward. "That is the unicorn" would fit. Still, in case the unnamed robot was referring to one symbol on one banner in the singular I will concede the point. So the robot was only demonstrably wrong if we assume that he intended the meanings that we know to be incorrect. Well, yes, but I am trying to get at the most reasonable interpetation. It is usually possible to assume a correct interpretation to what anyone says if you are willing to do enough mental gymnastics but I am not sure that will make a good foundation for productive discussion. Yea, the bull-bot could very well have been a parody of Young and that would explain why Robot felt hatred for that robot in www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=434 . Basically, the hatred of Mr Young (which got toned down for those who later took up Youngs position, which Eglamore is currently) and the sorrow of Jeanne is something that Diego hardcoded so deeply that the robots couldn't or wouldn't remove it when they had to make new chips and all for their descendants. Diego blamed Young for Jeanne's death; that's why he hated the man and either programmed or inspired his robots to hate as well. Diego couldn't have programmed the laser cows to dis Eggers. They are reacting to Eggers negatively because of his similarities to Young, because Diego intentionally or unintentionally gifted his hatred to the robots in a way that survived beyond the lack of original models with intact memories. Either way, what was the reason that some negative attitude or inclination was not included to the spy bird bots watching over them all?
One of the recurring themes of the comic is that people are complicated. Note how Antimony's relationships with Renard and Ysengrin change over time. Note how a background character like Winsbury interacts with his classmates differently between Year 7 and Year 8. I think it's overly simplistic to assume that Diego would treat a rival roboticist and their creations -- completely unrelated to the business with Jeanne -- the same way he treated the man he blamed for Jeanne's death.
You are oversimplifying my position to the point of unrecongizability. I am not ruling out Diego having a mentor or rival inventor, I am pointing out that the Tic-tocs are explainable with people and events currently within the comic and the introduction of another robot-maker is iffy.
Another theme of this comic is Diego's ego and ability to see himself as a righteous hero or the innocent victim of circumstances and the long-lasting implications of his doing so. Because of that I think that the robot society's reverence for the Tic-tocs is something that will have to be explained by the introduction of some other event in addition to the rival him/herself. I also think it would be unlikely that Diego wouldn't be irritated by a mentor creating the Tic-tocs to check up on him and his creations, but that circumstance would be more likely than the Tic-tocs being the creation of a rival. Despite Diego's genius I would expect him to have had some sort of training, apprenticeship, or access to the work of someone else. Such a person could have made mechanical birds with "Court technology" but there's still the big question of why, and why the robots would revere them. Still, that angle has one less issue than the possibility of a rival.
In summary: The infodump of the unnamed robot still seems a bit iffy to me, if he is right about everything then there will be some serious 'splainin to do.
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Post by smjjames on May 18, 2011 6:58:20 GMT
Man, it would be pretty cool if the court was actually founded during the Moorish occupation of Spain. Unlikely, but cool Wrong place though and while the Moorish occupation spanned over 700 years, the earliest plausible date for the founding of the Court (robotics technology on Diegos part nothwistanding) could be the 15th century (1400s), but the clothing style shown by the people in the flashbacks and Diegos recordings are more like 17th and 18th centuries. So it's plausible that it could have happened at the tail end of the Moorish occupation. Actually, theres another event that they could have been fleeing persecution from, the Spanish Inquisition. The problem though is that we don't have any concrete facts or anything that links the founding of the court around a particular century other than the style of clothing.
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Post by atteSmythe on May 18, 2011 13:28:39 GMT
So, I accept that whatever the Tic-tocs are they are at the very least close enough to Court technology to pass a fast visual inspection. Add to that the reasoned assumption that they are older than the robots. Who would be building something like that within that time frame but Diego? True, there may yet be an unrevealed mentor or rival but why hasn't there been any mention of such, and why would he allow the robots to revere the creation of someone else? [Apologies for not linking to all the refs, my dialup is acting up again and it's taking forever.] The Tic-Tocs are Kat's invention, sent back in time to inspire Diego to create the robots, with the later purpose of catching Antimony when she falls off the bridge. That's why they alarmed before she actually fell - the time of their purpose was met, and they knew what was coming. I normally detest a paradox, but I think this works really well for GC.
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Post by jayne on May 18, 2011 20:05:57 GMT
I'm uncomfortable with referring to a class of nonliving objects in the singular like that, as it would be like looking at a picture of a screwdriver in a hardware store and the sales clerk telling you, "That is the screwdriver, would you like to buy the screwdriver?" It's a bit awkward. Its uncomfortable because that's not the correct usage. "The screwdriver" is an abstract title for the tool in general. "The screwdriver was invented by someone clever" "Would you like to by the screwdriver" is not correct because it is referring to a specific screwdriver. "Would you like to by a screwdriver" or "Would you like to by this screwdriver" is correct in the specific case. If you have the choice of buying a hammer, a glue gun, or a screwdriver, then "Would you like to by the screwdriver" is correct because there is only one screwdriver in the available selection.
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Post by jayne on May 18, 2011 20:26:35 GMT
I was actually very surprised that there isn't wireless and automatic communication between robots so that one would know something as soon as any of them know it. But no... they're very much like humans. The weather bug had to be told about Kat and the shrine. Since they consider the TicTocs creator to be divine, they have the same ability to learn things 'imperfectly' as humans do.
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Post by Mezzaphor on May 19, 2011 2:22:57 GMT
A foil making a gospel infodump about one of the longest-running mysteries in the comic? Hm. Well, it's not like it explains very much. In fact, it raises more questions than before. Fine, that robot is not definitely correct. But we don't have enough information to say with certainty that he is wrong. I can think of another: Diego is not the sort of person who would hate another roboticists' work. You asked something to the effect of "Why would Diego's robots revere the TicToc if someone besides Diego created it?" I asked what evidence there was that Diego would not allow his creations to revere someone else's robots. You pointed to the robots' collective dislike for Sir Young and for Young's successors as evidence. You've done a great job demonstrating that the robots inherited their creator's biases. You have not convinced me that their creator would be biased against other people's robots. And I'm feeling that the TicTocs are too dissimilar to Diego's known creations for me to attribute them to him, and am not convinced by your arguments against the existence of another robot maker. I make no claims about this other robot maker's relationship with Diego.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on May 20, 2011 0:51:14 GMT
Suppose there is a genius photographer. The leading figures of the community where he lives come to him when they need pictures taken, even in matters of confidence or security. They trust his technical brilliance in capturing difficult shots with artistic flair.
Now suppose another photographer starts putting surveillance cameras around his community, with the potential to capture not only his professional trade secrets but his personal life as well. The spy-cams could also capture similar details from the other people within the community, including the rich and powerful people who are his patrons.
Even under the banner of national security or crime-prevention, even if it was his mentor who was behind it, I doubt that this situation would generate good feelings or professional admiration. It is a professional threat on two levels, first with regard to techniques that could be stolen, and secondly because of the influence on patrons; a few dirty secrets might cause our genius photographer to be supplanted in favor of a less able one. The spying has potential for abuse in other ways that could be considered a menace to the community in general. Also, our genius photographer has a big secret in his past that he would greatly prefer to remain secret.
And all that is the best spin I can think of. It's worse if the person placing the spy-cameras is unknown. It's worse if the person is a rival.
Even exhibitionists like to control the settings where they exhibit themselves. Most people don't like being spied on. The genius photographer might consent to that sort of monitoring system given various possible circumstances but I think him fostering a highly positive attitude about it would run strongly counter to my expectations. Again, not impossible, but new events will have to come to light to explain it. On the other hand, he might well foster some positive notions or useful misinformation about those cameras if they were actually his cameras.
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Post by smjjames on May 20, 2011 1:24:45 GMT
Maybe we should wonder who controls the Tic Tocs or who (or what) they answer to.
Another thing I would wonder about, how old are they? Even if they were made to last for a very long time, they aren't unbreakable and accidents do happen. So, either they can rebuild or replicate themselves or there are many thousands of them. Gamma actually called them the Thousand Eyes, so there is something with that.
Also, we are getting offtopic, actually it went offtopic from near the top of this page.
Edit: Meh, this thread kind of wandered offtopic from the start, so maybe its not neccesary to branch off?
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Post by Mezzaphor on May 20, 2011 2:54:00 GMT
Ah, so Diego shouldn't hate the TicTocs solely because they're someone else's creations; he should hate them (unless he's the one controlling them) because they're an intrusive spy network. An intrusive spy network that announces its presence with loud ticking, and can be scared away with a stick.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on May 20, 2011 5:17:09 GMT
What should it have done? I admit it would have been much more impressive if the Tic-toc that Zimmy threw the stick at had come down from its perch and kicked all the girls' arses, or shot laser beams at them or something, but its job seems to be recon and not combat so I'm not bothered by it just flying away when attacked. Besides: We don't know how far it went. I am unsure about the effectiveness of of the Tic-tocs as surveillance devices. They must have something going for them if the Court hasn't been able to catch one. I guess it is safe to assume they can see farther than they can be heard, but even if not that doesn't really affect my point. Is blatantly observing less annoying or intrusive than covertly watching? If the Tic-tocs are poorly designed for their purpose, then this is a reason for Diego (or whoever) to like being watched by them?
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Post by jayne on May 20, 2011 11:44:44 GMT
What should it have done? I admit it would have been much more impressive if the Tic-toc that Zimmy threw the stick at had come down from its perch and kicked all the girls' arses, or shot laser beams at them or something, but its job seems to be recon and not combat so I'm not bothered by it just flying away when attacked. Besides: We don't know how far it went. I am unsure about the effectiveness of of the Tic-tocs as surveillance devices. They must have something going for them if the Court hasn't been able to catch one. I guess it is safe to assume they can see farther than they can be heard, but even if not that doesn't really affect my point. Is blatantly observing less annoying or intrusive than covertly watching? If the Tic-tocs are poorly designed for their purpose, then this is a reason for Diego (or whoever) to like being watched by them? The problem with the "tictocs as an intrusive spy network" theory is the timing. The Tictoc birds existed before the court existed so they can't have been created to spy on the court. Wild Spec: I think Diego learned from a master, the one who built the tictocs. I think the master engineer was from the forest since his creation was designed to be a natural looking bird.
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Post by TBeholder on May 20, 2011 23:22:09 GMT
the one who built the tictocs. I think the master engineer was from the forest since his creation was designed to be a natural looking bird. Why not to assume that it was... you know... a divine being?
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Post by jayne on May 21, 2011 0:11:40 GMT
the one who built the tictocs. I think the master engineer was from the forest since his creation was designed to be a natural looking bird. Why not to assume that it was... you know... a divine being? Aw that's just silly! *thinks for a moment about the ghosts, minotaurs, fairies, trickster god, and whatever Rey is... what's one more bit of strangeness... * Nah! No way! ;D ;D
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