Post by anisky on Dec 30, 2010 5:31:59 GMT
Jayne said:
Yes, I had the same thought. As has been pointed out, Coyote has already mentioned on page 497 that Renard was tricked. Now that I look at it again, though, his phrasing is rather suspicious. He starts and ends with "I," but in the middle, for a couple of sentences, he says "we" instead of "I." Which sentences?:
"How we cried!" "We heard he was captured. Tricked!"
Which is meant to strongly imply that he had no idea that Renard was being tricked until after it had already happened. The way he tells it there, for all he knew, Renard was tricked *after* he got to the Court. "We heard he was captured." That definitely implies that he had no idea what happened until he heard about it second-hand. But if he was aware of what was happening the whole time, then that "we" might have been necessary to keep it the technical truth.
In this new page, he says, "You think I don't know a ruse when I see one?"
Of course, he's still being ambiguous, but now he's kinda implying that he knew about it the whole time. (Whether that's true or not is immaterial, as long as Ysengrin believes it is.) There can be a big difference between the two scenarios, depending on how you think about it.
Scenario 1: Renard chose to break the rules, take somebody's body, and leave for forest for the Court, and is THEN, subsequently, tricked into being trapped there.
Scenario 2: Someone-- a person who was supposed to be a liaison between the Court and the Forest, at that-- deliberately manipulated Renard, tricked him into leaving the forest and coming to the court, with the express purpose of trapping him there.
I can see Ysengrin viewing those two scenarios very differently. Given that he really hates humans, to the first one he'd probably be like "Good riddance, he was the one who wanted to leave the forest and go to the Court, what happens is on his own head." But I can see him thinking of the second scenario as completely different. Coyote's "You think I don't know a ruse when I see one?" (emphasis mine) implies that he knew what was happening before Renard was tricked and trapped. Which, in turn, would mean that he knowingly let it happen. Ysengrin might think that Coyote had a responsibility to protect Renard. Not having done so, Ys could think Coyote's obligated to rescue Renard in a way he wouldn't be if it had been Rey's genuine, non-bamboozled choice.
It's been a while since I've reread the comic (I might do that next), but I think I remember it seemed like Ysengrin disdained Renard for choosing to leave the forest. The revelation that he was manipulated into it could change his feelings about it completely.
Of course, the way it's been written thus far, that revelation hasn't completely come out-- all he's really heard is that Renard was tricked by Surma, and that Coyote knew about it. But considering Coyote's earlier statement about how they heard about how he'd been tricked and cried about it-- that much Ys already knew-- their exchange must have given him enough information to change his attitude. Maybe it's what I said above, that he managed to put together that Renard was tricked while in the forest. It's not that big a jump; if his new piece of information is that it was Surma (incidentally, the only one from the Court allowed in the Forest) responsible for tricking Rey, that might be enough for Ys to connect the dots. Or, possibly, there's something else significant about the fact that it was *Surma* who tricked him that we haven't learned yet.
I think there's more to why the Court wanted to trap Renard than we've been told. WAS he a bad guy? Anja said nobody expected him to kill someone to get into the court. Again, haven't reread the comic for a while, so I forget: Did Reynardine KNOW, at that point, that once he left one of the bodies he possessed, it would die? Or was that one of Coyote's unpleasant surprises?
(Unless there's information we're missing-- and I'm sure there is, but you know, particular pieces of relevant information missing-- I'm really surprised Surma went along with it. Is my memory going completely, or have we not really seen any sign of Renard doing bad things before he was tricked into coming to the Court? Surma willingly used a nice guy's love for her to manipulate him into being captured and held prisoner because... he was "deemed a risk"? Deemed a risk not for his OWN actions at that, but because Coyote wanted to give Rey his powers and Rey KEPT TURNING HIM DOWN? "This nice fox loves me. But through no fault of his own, the Court has decided he's a risk. So why don't I trick him into being a prisoner for all eternity!" Classy, Surma. Really classy.
(I don't want to think that about her. I hope we find out a more compelling reason they deciding capturing him was necessary.)
And of course, it also ties right back into that burning question that we've had for a while: why was Coyote so desperate to give Renard his powers, and why did he seemingly stop caring once Renard was trapped at the Court?
Maybe Coyote set up this whole thing, acting like he wanted to give Renard his powers so that the Court would feel threatened and take action to capture Renard. There might be some reason Coyote wanted Rey out of the picture. Or is that speculation too wild for a normal page discussion thread?
ETA: I apologize, I can't figure out how to use the proper form to quote somebody once I've already posted.
ETA 2: Another reason we DO know why finding out Surma was the one who tricked Rey might change things for Ys has occurred to me. Don't they have some deal where nobody from the Forest is allowed in The Court, and vice versa (with the exception of the Court medium and for some reason Jones, of course)? If Reynardine just went to the Court, then by their agreement they had every right to capture him and keep him imprisoned, because he broke the rules. Coyote HAD to leave him there in order to honor the agreement. But knowing that the Court medium, presumably instructed to do so by the Court officials, purposely lured Renard there... they don't really have much of a leg to stand on, now, do they? That's about as entrapmenty as entrapment can get.
Rey's having killed a man strengthens their claim that they have a right to keep him captive, but Ys probably has reason to believe Renard might not have known what the consequences of his powers would be.
I think Ysengrin's line is wrong... "How could you leave him trapped there?!" doesn't sound like the right response and... well, they've left Rey trapped there for over 14 years now... why get upset about this now.
Yes, I had the same thought. As has been pointed out, Coyote has already mentioned on page 497 that Renard was tricked. Now that I look at it again, though, his phrasing is rather suspicious. He starts and ends with "I," but in the middle, for a couple of sentences, he says "we" instead of "I." Which sentences?:
"How we cried!" "We heard he was captured. Tricked!"
Which is meant to strongly imply that he had no idea that Renard was being tricked until after it had already happened. The way he tells it there, for all he knew, Renard was tricked *after* he got to the Court. "We heard he was captured." That definitely implies that he had no idea what happened until he heard about it second-hand. But if he was aware of what was happening the whole time, then that "we" might have been necessary to keep it the technical truth.
In this new page, he says, "You think I don't know a ruse when I see one?"
Of course, he's still being ambiguous, but now he's kinda implying that he knew about it the whole time. (Whether that's true or not is immaterial, as long as Ysengrin believes it is.) There can be a big difference between the two scenarios, depending on how you think about it.
Scenario 1: Renard chose to break the rules, take somebody's body, and leave for forest for the Court, and is THEN, subsequently, tricked into being trapped there.
Scenario 2: Someone-- a person who was supposed to be a liaison between the Court and the Forest, at that-- deliberately manipulated Renard, tricked him into leaving the forest and coming to the court, with the express purpose of trapping him there.
I can see Ysengrin viewing those two scenarios very differently. Given that he really hates humans, to the first one he'd probably be like "Good riddance, he was the one who wanted to leave the forest and go to the Court, what happens is on his own head." But I can see him thinking of the second scenario as completely different. Coyote's "You think I don't know a ruse when I see one?" (emphasis mine) implies that he knew what was happening before Renard was tricked and trapped. Which, in turn, would mean that he knowingly let it happen. Ysengrin might think that Coyote had a responsibility to protect Renard. Not having done so, Ys could think Coyote's obligated to rescue Renard in a way he wouldn't be if it had been Rey's genuine, non-bamboozled choice.
It's been a while since I've reread the comic (I might do that next), but I think I remember it seemed like Ysengrin disdained Renard for choosing to leave the forest. The revelation that he was manipulated into it could change his feelings about it completely.
Of course, the way it's been written thus far, that revelation hasn't completely come out-- all he's really heard is that Renard was tricked by Surma, and that Coyote knew about it. But considering Coyote's earlier statement about how they heard about how he'd been tricked and cried about it-- that much Ys already knew-- their exchange must have given him enough information to change his attitude. Maybe it's what I said above, that he managed to put together that Renard was tricked while in the forest. It's not that big a jump; if his new piece of information is that it was Surma (incidentally, the only one from the Court allowed in the Forest) responsible for tricking Rey, that might be enough for Ys to connect the dots. Or, possibly, there's something else significant about the fact that it was *Surma* who tricked him that we haven't learned yet.
I think there's more to why the Court wanted to trap Renard than we've been told. WAS he a bad guy? Anja said nobody expected him to kill someone to get into the court. Again, haven't reread the comic for a while, so I forget: Did Reynardine KNOW, at that point, that once he left one of the bodies he possessed, it would die? Or was that one of Coyote's unpleasant surprises?
(Unless there's information we're missing-- and I'm sure there is, but you know, particular pieces of relevant information missing-- I'm really surprised Surma went along with it. Is my memory going completely, or have we not really seen any sign of Renard doing bad things before he was tricked into coming to the Court? Surma willingly used a nice guy's love for her to manipulate him into being captured and held prisoner because... he was "deemed a risk"? Deemed a risk not for his OWN actions at that, but because Coyote wanted to give Rey his powers and Rey KEPT TURNING HIM DOWN? "This nice fox loves me. But through no fault of his own, the Court has decided he's a risk. So why don't I trick him into being a prisoner for all eternity!" Classy, Surma. Really classy.
(I don't want to think that about her. I hope we find out a more compelling reason they deciding capturing him was necessary.)
And of course, it also ties right back into that burning question that we've had for a while: why was Coyote so desperate to give Renard his powers, and why did he seemingly stop caring once Renard was trapped at the Court?
Maybe Coyote set up this whole thing, acting like he wanted to give Renard his powers so that the Court would feel threatened and take action to capture Renard. There might be some reason Coyote wanted Rey out of the picture. Or is that speculation too wild for a normal page discussion thread?
ETA: I apologize, I can't figure out how to use the proper form to quote somebody once I've already posted.
ETA 2: Another reason we DO know why finding out Surma was the one who tricked Rey might change things for Ys has occurred to me. Don't they have some deal where nobody from the Forest is allowed in The Court, and vice versa (with the exception of the Court medium and for some reason Jones, of course)? If Reynardine just went to the Court, then by their agreement they had every right to capture him and keep him imprisoned, because he broke the rules. Coyote HAD to leave him there in order to honor the agreement. But knowing that the Court medium, presumably instructed to do so by the Court officials, purposely lured Renard there... they don't really have much of a leg to stand on, now, do they? That's about as entrapmenty as entrapment can get.
Rey's having killed a man strengthens their claim that they have a right to keep him captive, but Ys probably has reason to believe Renard might not have known what the consequences of his powers would be.