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Post by jayne on Dec 21, 2010 21:48:20 GMT
It was on the next page (275) when he speaks of Surma's death, he mentions how short human lives are. Even so, Coyote does make mistakes and usually laughs them off. "Oopsie" A while ago, I asked Tom if Coyote would recognize a bird that had once been human but that had taken the test and I THINK he said Coyote would know that... A couple of points. Firstly, Annie's ancestor who was a phoenix, according to the theory, wouldn't need to come from the forest, or taken the test for that matter (as mentioned above, some phoenix legends tell that it was able to shape shift into a human). Secondly, even if Coyote knew the ancestor, he may recognize it in another form, but would he recognize a descendant? Which leads to the final point. Annie and Surma may indeed be human, but could inherit the phoenix cycle of rebirth. We already know its possible for the inhabitants of the forest to have human ancestors (here www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=494), why not vice versa. The only problem for the theory I see is why Surma didn't die in child birth (as in the legend the adult would die, and the chick would rise from the ashes), although this could be explained away by Anthony finding a way to temporarily hold back Surma. Its funny you mentioned that page because I always thought it was highly suspicious that Coyote would mention "Many of the current inhabitants are descended from those humans" while the camera focuses on a flipped image of Annie... and is that a fire like glow around her head? I can't help but think she's the reverse case: the descendant of a forest creature that was cut off from the forest.
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Post by jayne on Dec 21, 2010 21:51:49 GMT
The problem with that is, a phoenix can fly.... it wouldn't be cut off from the forest.
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Post by noblemanofreason on Dec 21, 2010 21:57:17 GMT
The problem with that is, a phoenix can fly.... it wouldn't be cut off from the forest. ?? I'm not sure I understand. I didn't mean that the phoenix couldn't enter the forest. I meant that it is possible that it and Coyote never met, and therefore Coyote only assumes Surma and Annie were fully human because he has never bothered to check further.
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Post by fronzel on Dec 21, 2010 22:20:32 GMT
The problem with that is, a phoenix can fly.... it wouldn't be cut off from the forest. It wouldn't necessarily need to be cut off. We've seen there's amounts of voluntary emigration from both sides. A bird that stayed in the Court after the split is a bird that wanted to be there.
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Post by mistysoul on Dec 21, 2010 23:05:47 GMT
The problem with that is, a phoenix can fly.... it wouldn't be cut off from the forest. It wouldn't necessarily need to be cut off. We've seen there's amounts of voluntary emigration from both sides. A bird that stayed in the Court after the split is a bird that wanted to be there. It could also be the case that Annie's line started with a phoenix that came from an even farther, more exotic place than the Gilitie Wood. There are legends about it in a lot of different cultures, from China to ancient Egypt.
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Post by mistysoul on Dec 22, 2010 0:10:58 GMT
It was on the next page (275) when he speaks of Surma's death, he mentions how short human lives are. Even so, Coyote does make mistakes and usually laughs them off. "Oopsie" A while ago, I asked Tom if Coyote would recognize a bird that had once been human but that had taken the test and I THINK he said Coyote would know that... A couple of points. Firstly, Annie's ancestor who was a phoenix, according to the theory, wouldn't need to come from the forest, or taken the test for that matter (as mentioned above, some phoenix legends tell that it was able to shape shift into a human). Secondly, even if Coyote knew the ancestor, he may recognize it in another form, but would he recognize a descendant? Which leads to the final point. Annie and Surma may indeed be human, but could inherit the phoenix cycle of rebirth. We already know its possible for the inhabitants of the forest to have human ancestors (here www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=494), why not vice versa. The only problem for the theory I see is why Surma didn't die in child birth (as in the legend the adult would die, and the chick would rise from the ashes), although this could be explained away by Anthony finding a way to temporarily hold back Surma. A human body equals human limitations, advantages, and characteristics. When the fairies became human students at the Court, they lost the ability to float and they no longer glowed. They retained some appearance qualities despite their new bodies, such as pointed ears. Their human physiologies caused their hair to grow and need to be cut despite fairies having hair that is just as much a part of their main bodies as fingers. Based on this, I think if a phoenix were to become human, several things would be different about it other than its appearance. So maybe this could explain how long the fire exchange process took for Surma? A human baby has a much different physiology than a young phoenix. It grows slowly and can only absorb so much energy at a time. Also, it could be that Coyote in fact does not know about what Annie really is. Maybe Annie is so much more human than phoenix that he can't tell the difference. It is possible that Annie has a Phoenix ancestor from quite a ways back. In the ether she looks completely human afterall.
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Post by fronzel on Dec 22, 2010 0:25:31 GMT
A couple of points. Firstly, Annie's ancestor who was a phoenix, according to the theory, wouldn't need to come from the forest, or taken the test for that matter (as mentioned above, some phoenix legends tell that it was able to shape shift into a human). Secondly, even if Coyote knew the ancestor, he may recognize it in another form, but would he recognize a descendant? Which leads to the final point. Annie and Surma may indeed be human, but could inherit the phoenix cycle of rebirth. We already know its possible for the inhabitants of the forest to have human ancestors (here www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=494), why not vice versa. The only problem for the theory I see is why Surma didn't die in child birth (as in the legend the adult would die, and the chick would rise from the ashes), although this could be explained away by Anthony finding a way to temporarily hold back Surma. A human body equals human limitations, advantages, and characteristics. When the fairies became human students at the Court, they lost the ability to float and they no longer glowed. They retained some appearance qualities despite their new bodies, such as pointed ears. Their human physiologies caused their hair to grow and need to be cut despite fairies having hair that is just as much a part of their main bodies as fingers. Based on this, I think if a phoenix were to become human, several things would be different about it other than its appearance. So maybe this could explain how long the fire exchange process took for Surma? A human baby has a much different physiology than a young phoenix. It grows slowly and can only absorb so much energy at a time. Also, it could be that Coyote in fact does not know about what Annie really is. Maybe Annie is so much more human than phoenix that he can't tell the difference. It is possible that Annie has a Phoenix ancestor from quite a ways back. In the ether she looks completely human afterall. But the only strange thing about the fairies' post-test is that their new bodies appear to be those of a 12-13 year-old right away rather than being somehow born as an infant. In other words, what of the fairy remains except their personalities? Nothing, apparently. So why would a phoenix who tested into humanity retain this phoenix-like trait of passing essence to a new being which is in some sense a rebirth of the old being?
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Post by jayne on Dec 22, 2010 0:30:55 GMT
Its just that when I read 494 I thought Coyote meant some creatures and humans were trapped on the wrong side since they didn't have the bridge or a way to cross. Those that were trapped, stayed on their side and learned to live there. The humans on the forest side could become animals in what would eventually become the test the fairies took. The non-humans on the court side... not sure how that would work.
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Post by fronzel on Dec 22, 2010 1:28:40 GMT
Its just that when I read 494 I thought Coyote meant some creatures and humans were trapped on the wrong side since they didn't have the bridge or a way to cross. Those that were trapped, stayed on their side and learned to live there. The humans on the forest side could become animals in what would eventually become the test the fairies took. The non-humans on the court side... not sure how that would work. You might be wrong about this. Maybe there would be genuine humans in the forest now if Ysengrin hadn't somehow forced them to receive new bodies. And we've already seen etheric/legendary creatures existing peacefully in the court, apart from the now-human fairies; Mort, Brinnie, the dragons, and Marcia (the dryad). All but Mort were obviously known by the Court authorities and I wouldn't be surprised if he was, too. I believe it's supposed to be more complex than humans=Court, etherics=forest.
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Post by Stately Buff-Cookie on Dec 22, 2010 3:16:27 GMT
I'm curious about how Surma ended up with Anthony. Not a jab at him at all. I'm rather curious how that played out. He obviously does have emotions.. but he's also the type to keep it tightly controlled. The theory of Surma somehow getting a peek at his truer nature has been slung around before, but I want the gritty details!
The reasoning behind the phoenix theory is entirely sound. Assuming it was a phoenix from the woods, it's not unreasonable to assume the phoenix was on the court side on on purpose. The court and woods were already heavily divided before the split, but why would some magic creatures stay so deep into the court.. and some humans so deep into the woods.. to be trapped after the split? They were probably exceptions that liked things on the other side anyway. What I'm getting at is.. maybe the phoenix just liked humans more for whatever reason. Maybe just one specific human.
Phoenix loves human and has baby. Baby is human. Phoenix trait remains dormant for who knows how long, remaining as a passive seed till it blooms in Surma.
Though I doubt it's that easy. Tom has already shown an ability to defy all of our expectations by making something more awesome than we could imagine. Despite how much sense it makes, I'll go with a 'no way' simply because of that.
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Post by jayne on Dec 22, 2010 3:39:32 GMT
Its just that when I read 494 I thought Coyote meant some creatures and humans were trapped on the wrong side since they didn't have the bridge or a way to cross. Those that were trapped, stayed on their side and learned to live there. The humans on the forest side could become animals in what would eventually become the test the fairies took. The non-humans on the court side... not sure how that would work. You might be wrong about this. Maybe there would be genuine humans in the forest now if Ysengrin hadn't somehow forced them to receive new bodies. And we've already seen etheric/legendary creatures existing peacefully in the court, apart from the now-human fairies; Mort, Brinnie, the dragons, and Marcia (the dryad). All but Mort were obviously known by the Court authorities and I wouldn't be surprised if he was, too. I believe it's supposed to be more complex than humans=Court, etherics=forest. Shh.. don't tell but I'm quite often wrong! I don't know, I think Ysengrin would make short work of human remaining in the forest. I think he'd insist they lose their human bodies in one way or the other. As for those in the court... I don't see how they'd become human without the test but if we're working on how Annie can be 'not 100% human' there has to be something going on. Maybe she has a single non-human ancestor so she appears to be human but there's that stubborn forest-y gene that remains true. ...Tom said it was a given that Surma would have a daughter... so maybe Annie would only have one daughter.... this sounds familiar... I might be thinking of Wonder Woman's origins. /shrug
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Post by mistysoul on Dec 22, 2010 3:54:12 GMT
A human body equals human limitations, advantages, and characteristics. When the fairies became human students at the Court, they lost the ability to float and they no longer glowed. They retained some appearance qualities despite their new bodies, such as pointed ears. Their human physiologies caused their hair to grow and need to be cut despite fairies having hair that is just as much a part of their main bodies as fingers. Based on this, I think if a phoenix were to become human, several things would be different about it other than its appearance. So maybe this could explain how long the fire exchange process took for Surma? A human baby has a much different physiology than a young phoenix. It grows slowly and can only absorb so much energy at a time. Also, it could be that Coyote in fact does not know about what Annie really is. Maybe Annie is so much more human than phoenix that he can't tell the difference. It is possible that Annie has a Phoenix ancestor from quite a ways back. In the ether she looks completely human afterall. But the only strange thing about the fairies' post-test is that their new bodies appear to be those of a 12-13 year-old right away rather than being somehow born as an infant. In other words, what of the fairy remains except their personalities? Nothing, apparently. So why would a phoenix who tested into humanity retain this phoenix-like trait of passing essence to a new being which is in some sense a rebirth of the old being? The fairies look that age in their new bodies because that's how old they were in fairy years when they switched bodies. When a phoenix rekindles itself, it's exactly like a new child being born. The processes of trading bodies and being born are different... And a phoenix might not need the aid of the "test" that the fairies took to become human. Besides, we don't know if the fairies still retain any etheric abilities or not. We don't even know if fairies are capable of such things in the first place.
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Post by ethanblack on Dec 22, 2010 6:26:24 GMT
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myzelf
Junior Member
Posts: 83
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Post by myzelf on Dec 22, 2010 7:09:27 GMT
Whenever I look at the last page of this comic, in my imagination I hear a sudden, discordant sting, like a scare chord. Does anyone else get that feeling? It's like the comic itself is screaming, "AND THEN SOMETHING TERRIBLE HAPPENS."
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Post by ethanblack on Dec 22, 2010 7:15:18 GMT
Whenever I look at the last page of this comic, in my imagination I hear a sudden, discordant sting, like a scare chord. Does anyone else get that feeling? It's like the comic itself is screaming, "AND THEN SOMETHING TERRIBLE HAPPENS." I suppose I get that too, though for me, it's really haunting my memory. That blood red border, the deep plain black... Massive contrast. The image itself, the very embodiment of dread, fear, apprehension. I've had my share of nighmares, and that image is something terrifying, one of those images that impossibly horrifies you without knowing why. Your mind makes it happen. You see it. You fear it.
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Post by headwired on Dec 22, 2010 13:48:16 GMT
I was confused by the skull at first, but after todays panel, i think that it is Annie's subconscious realising that someone is intruding into her dreams. That someone being Coyote.
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