snuggly
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The last man on earth sat in a room. There was a knock upon the door.
Posts: 28
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Post by snuggly on Oct 29, 2010 18:02:01 GMT
I don't know if this has been done in the past, but since Andrew is able to manipulate probability, can't he simply manipulate the probability that he is in a particular location due to the sliding ability of a particle to go outside a box? (teleportation that requires no energy)
Second, couldn't he just have all the molecules in a specific plane (say in Elgamores head) suddenly have all their polarities suddenly line up (as in LDF forces) so that it splits along that line? Thus creating an almost unstoppable weapon?
Is his ability to manipulate probability so profound that he could simultaneously affect all the molecules in someones brain in order to make them love him? (maybe even subconsciously) or maybe he can alter his pheromones to make them specially tailored to a specific individual? (in the case of Parley)
Could he theoretically change the half life of a stable heavy element such as uranium-238 to make it easy for it to undergo fission? (and possibly making a weapon more powerful than any other made due to not having limitations on trying to get two sub critical masses together in a nuclear device?
Food for Thought.
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Post by terramaster on Oct 29, 2010 18:41:31 GMT
I think it's more the manipulation of chance, forcing things into order through probability.
He would cause molecules to stabilize rather than set them off.
Or it's not THAT specific.
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Post by basser on Oct 31, 2010 3:13:30 GMT
Well technically it HAS to be that specific, since affecting the probability of a larger object is, by necessity, affecting the probability of the smaller individual particles that make up that object.
And besides which, who defines "order", anyway? A deck of cards has no specific order apart from what we as humans ascribe to it. Since Smitty is in control of the probabilities around him, then all 'order' he creates is that which he believes is right. The deck of cards would not have fallen that way if he didn't think that was the order in which cards should be.
It stands to reason, then, that if Smit is of the opinion that something is not orderly, such as the haphazard way the atoms in someone's head are arranged, he could theoretically 'organize' them. Cue explosions.
I suppose the best course of action would be to make sure that Smit never learns advanced physics.
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Post by hal9000 on Oct 31, 2010 3:50:19 GMT
I don't know if this has been done in the past, but since Andrew is able to manipulate probability, can't he simply manipulate the probability that he is in a particular location due to the sliding ability of a particle to go outside a box? (teleportation that requires no energy) Second, couldn't he just have all the molecules in a specific plane (say in Elgamores head) suddenly have all their polarities suddenly line up (as in LDF forces) so that it splits along that line? Thus creating an almost unstoppable weapon? Is his ability to manipulate probability so profound that he could simultaneously affect all the molecules in someones brain in order to make them love him? (maybe even subconsciously) or maybe he can alter his pheromones to make them specially tailored to a specific individual? (in the case of Parley) Could he theoretically change the half life of a stable heavy element such as uranium-238 to make it easy for it to undergo fission? (and possibly making a weapon more powerful than any other made due to not having limitations on trying to get two sub critical masses together in a nuclear device? Food for Thought. What's interesting to me is that he seems to be reducing the entropy in a local area, which (if the laws of thermodynamics hold) would imply that he's correspondingly increasing the entropy of an area somewhere else. If, on the other hand, the laws of thermodynamics don't hold for Smitty and his power, then things could get really interesting.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Oct 31, 2010 4:28:11 GMT
I'm guessing that one of the "rules" behind Smit's power is that he needs to add the required amount of energy to the system to produce order or somehow be in proximate control of the addition of same. He doesn't just tap the deck of cards and it becomes ordered, he throws them and they happen to fall into order. It's not so much a reduction of entropy; it's more like Smit kicks it backward into last Thursday.
George being telepathic and all, she may be able to read him and use him as a range-finder and a scope or possibly use him as a targeting computer for her own prescience about her landing point.
And speaking of points, the question about what sort of order Smit's power appeals to is an excellent point. Does he appeal to his own opinions or expectations of how things should be, or does he apply psychometry or telepathy to determine someone else's intentions/expectations, or does he draw on some wider sort of collective subconscious or Form? The stone falling in the "correct" spot suggests he uses the middle of those three choices, but doesn't rule out the other two. [And I use the word "suggest" because the girls would've eventually gotten the stone where they wanted by other means so fate may be operating here; Smit may have just been a big shortcut.]
Whatever "order" Smit appeals to, I don't think he can manipulate quantum reactions where there isn't a "should be" involved. On the other hand, if you put him in charge of a super-collider when you wanted a particular effect that was very improbable but not impossible, he could probably accomplish it (or perhaps just push the on button at the exact moment that would accomplish it). On the atomic level, I don't think he could spontaneously detonate uranium or plutonium because an explosion would appear to be the opposite state of order. He might be able to mash a tiny sample of a radioactive substance and force it to conform precisely to its expected half-life, maybe, or refine substances with great ease. I'm pretty sure he could give a worn-out permanent magnet a firm tap with a hammer and reinvigorate it (when normally such a blow would further demagnetize it). If everyone knew Smit was fated to do something he just might be able to run right through a wall to reach his appointed task, if and only if he himself believed with 100% certainty. And if there were 1,000 monkeys hitting random keys on 1,000 typewriters and Smitty crept up behind one and bashed it on the head with a club, it might just tap out a few lines of As You Like It before it fell over.
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Post by Mezzaphor on Oct 31, 2010 6:18:24 GMT
Well technically it HAS to be that specific, since affecting the probability of a larger object is, by necessity, affecting the probability of the smaller individual particles that make up that object. And besides which, who defines "order", anyway? A deck of cards has no specific order apart from what we as humans ascribe to it. Since Smitty is in control of the probabilities around him, then all 'order' he creates is that which he believes is right. The deck of cards would not have fallen that way if he didn't think that was the order in which cards should be. It stands to reason, then, that if Smit is of the opinion that something is not orderly, such as the haphazard way the atoms in someone's head are arranged, he could theoretically 'organize' them. Cue explosions. I suppose the best course of action would be to make sure that Smit never learns advanced physics. Between Smitty's "Aw man" reaction to resolving the Jupiter Moon Martian simulator, and his ability to get the Blinker Stone to fall just where needed—even though he didn't know where it was needed—I think it's highly unlikely that Smitty's preferences have anything to do with the effects his powers have. So he probably will never be able to consciously manipulate his powers like that.
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Post by Amethyst on Oct 31, 2010 9:36:56 GMT
Consider the thought exercise of Laplace's Demon. Laplace's Demon is a theoretical being that knows at a point in time, the exact position and velocity of every particle in existence. Through physical laws, Laplace's Demon should theoretically be able to predict the past and future to an unerring degree. Perhaps Smitty's power is something similar, though not nearly as precise or all-encompassing as this. Perhaps Smitty unconsciously takes into effect his surroundings such that he can cause through his actions the exact physical effect he desires. That is, by throwing a deck of cards so unbelievably just right, by physical law the cards would fall in that position. Or maybe a projectile will hit a nearby bird, etc. All unconsciously. Eh?
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boris
New Member
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Post by boris on Oct 31, 2010 13:56:56 GMT
Consider the thought exercise of Laplace's Demon. Laplace's Demon is a theoretical being that knows at a point in time, the exact position and velocity of every particle in existence. Quantum Mechanics specifically forbids this. It is not possible to know the exact location or velocity of a particle, even in principle. No matter how advanced technology becomes, there will always be a certain amount of uncertainty.
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Post by Quizzie on Oct 31, 2010 22:08:37 GMT
What's interesting to me is that he seems to be reducing the entropy in a local area, which (if the laws of thermodynamics hold) would imply that he's correspondingly increasing the entropy of an area somewhere else. I like that idea... Like a vent or something. I wonder where that area would be. Ether? Creating some distortion in ether every time he does a trick... Or making mess in Parley's head. ;D I'm guessing that one of the "rules" behind Smit's power is that he needs to add the required amount of energy to the system to produce order or somehow be in proximate control of the addition of same. He doesn't just tap the deck of cards and it becomes ordered, he throws them and they happen to fall into order. It's not so much a reduction of entropy; it's more like Smit kicks it backward into last Thursday. Well, entropy is very often used to define the direction of time. Overall entropy never decreases over time (order --> disorder). So if you decrease entropy (create order), it really IS like reversing time, isn't it? Quantum Mechanics specifically forbids this. It is not possible to know the exact location or velocity of a particle, even in principle. No matter how advanced technology becomes, there will always be a certain amount of uncertainty. But some Quantum Gravity theories say maybe...
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Nov 1, 2010 3:40:04 GMT
Well, entropy is very often used to define the direction of time. Overall entropy never decreases over time (order --> disorder). So if you decrease entropy (create order), it really IS like reversing time, isn't it? I could agree with that in a simplified model: George buys a deck of cards; they come in suited order. She shuffles the cards, Smitface uses his knack to pop them back into suited order. The deck is now arguably interchangeable with itself in the past before it was shuffled. However, that model requires a hidden assumption that the cards are unchangeable through the course of normal handling so if you want to think about real cards maybe it's better to say that to the unaided eye the deck is identical to itself in the past. Because playing cards are not atoms or particles there will be minute change resulting from their motion that I expect that Smitty's talent will not reset. On one repetition it may be invisible, such as minute static charges traded from the plasticized surfaces of the cards rubbing against each other and George's hands, along with small amounts of wear on the edges. If they repeat the same trick many times I expect the cards will start to show wear. If George burned a card through with a cigarette I do not expect Smit's reordering of the deck to heal it (caveat: it's magic in a comic so who really knows?). The deck will occupy different space relative to where it was when the cards were last in suited order as well, so I think it's better to say that Smitty adds energy into a system to structure or restructure it rather than the entropy of the system decreases (unless the deck now resists shuffling or something).
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Post by mithril on Nov 3, 2010 1:44:04 GMT
Consider the thought exercise of Laplace's Demon. Laplace's Demon is a theoretical being that knows at a point in time, the exact position and velocity of every particle in existence. Quantum Mechanics specifically forbids this. It is not possible to know the exact location or velocity of a particle, even in principle. No matter how advanced technology becomes, there will always be a certain amount of uncertainty. which is why this ability would be an example of 'Etheric Science'. it happens, but science is incapable of explaining it.
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boris
New Member
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Post by boris on Nov 3, 2010 6:31:11 GMT
but.... but.. no.. it can't work just like that.. =S
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Post by Aris Katsaris on Nov 3, 2010 18:43:12 GMT
Not many people understand the uncertainty principle because people still usually try to explain it in terms of *ability*. So other people can imagine magical abilities that circumvent these limitations of ours.
But at that quantum level of existence, position and velocity are linked intrinsically: not just on the level of our knowledge but as things-by-themselves. A particle's velocity can be retrieved only by means of integration over an area. You can't integrate over a *point* in space, so if you precisely define the position, there's no possible knowledge of velocity. You can get an exact velocity only if you integrate over a large area.
And this isn't just a limit on *our* abilities because it's reality itself, in each particle's interaction with other particles, that calculates it like that. There's no sense in trying to outsmart reality. You can't get more precise results than reality does.
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Post by fjodor on Nov 3, 2010 21:13:51 GMT
Come to think of it, Quantum Etherics must have been the basis for the design of the space ship from The hitch-hiker's guide to the galaxy, the one that moved based on Improbability mode.
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Post by theweatherman on Nov 5, 2010 1:14:00 GMT
*clears throat*
Neeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrds.
*adjusts tie*
Goodnight.
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Post by evilanagram on Nov 5, 2010 2:09:21 GMT
That would have been funny if you'd spelled "tie" correctly.
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Post by Casey on Nov 5, 2010 3:32:17 GMT
no "tir" is actually short for "tiara", because he is a princess. See?
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Post by Mezzaphor on Nov 5, 2010 4:01:13 GMT
Nerds? On my internet?
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Post by Casey on Nov 5, 2010 4:09:41 GMT
It's more li... no, I can't bring myself to do it. Sorry.
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Post by theweatherman on Nov 5, 2010 16:32:31 GMT
jokes guys, I'm nerdy too, just not smart. Still, you guys are looking WAY too far into a comic on the interblab. and in my defense, it was 2 in the morning. That's what you get for not using spellcheck!
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Post by evilanagram on Nov 5, 2010 17:30:42 GMT
I was completely serious; I would have found that funny if you'd spelled "tie" right to begin with. The typo ruined your delivery.
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Post by Mylian on Nov 6, 2010 5:25:25 GMT
Still, you guys are looking WAY too far into a comic on the interblab. On these forums, this discussion is the equivalent of light conversation. This fandom analyzes EVERYTHING. Hang out long enough, you won't even notice it.
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Post by Mezzaphor on Nov 6, 2010 14:52:28 GMT
I think the initial "nerds" post could have been greatly improved with a picture.
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shuis112
New Member
whatchu talkin bout Willis
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Post by shuis112 on Nov 6, 2010 16:20:31 GMT
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Post by djublonskopf on Nov 6, 2010 18:50:28 GMT
Smit's powers seem to only increase higher-orders of information.
If he was reducing entropy at an atomic level, his digestive system wouldn't work. He'd be . . . "excreting" . . . high-energy molecules at high temperatures (or, if it went the other way, iron at absolute zero).
Whatever underpins Smit's ability, it recognizes that playing cards go in a certain order, but doesn't recognize that the atoms in the cards could operate at lower energy states if they were fused and fissed into iron. So the mechanism isn't concerned with quantum probability of individual atoms. It's concerned with whole, intact, printed playing cards.
So . . . high-level order, only.
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Post by Mylian on Nov 7, 2010 6:04:02 GMT
You know how in imaging programs you can set it so when your mouse gets close to certain points or guide lines, it automatically snaps into alignment with them? Smitty's power is simply that his reality interface's "snap to" option is toggled on.
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Post by legion on Nov 7, 2010 6:31:24 GMT
You know how in imaging programs you can set it so when your mouse gets close to certain points or guide lines, it automatically snaps into alignment with them? Smitty's power is simply that his reality interface's "snap to" option is toggled on. So basically, Smitty is an attractor. His power are not quantic, but chaotic in nature!
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snuggly
New Member
The last man on earth sat in a room. There was a knock upon the door.
Posts: 28
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Post by snuggly on Nov 8, 2010 9:00:43 GMT
Smit's powers seem to only increase higher-orders of information. If he was reducing entropy at an atomic level, his digestive system wouldn't work. He'd be . . . "excreting" . . . high-energy molecules at high temperatures (or, if it went the other way, iron at absolute zero). Whatever underpins Smit's ability, it recognizes that playing cards go in a certain order, but doesn't recognize that the atoms in the cards could operate at lower energy states if they were fused and fissed into iron. So the mechanism isn't concerned with quantum probability of individual atoms. It's concerned with whole, intact, printed playing cards. So . . . high-level order, only. Through the comics, and some input previously, the objects ordered seem to be ordered when Andrew decides they should be. He decided to help them throw the stone, throw the deck and other things. Through this statement, I see no reason that he should excrete iron or long chained organic molecules. I think evidence suggests that his powers might be based on his perception but this means that his perception is the only thing limiting his abilities. The only time something has become ordered around him was when he was actively influencing it, thus i don't believe that there is a larger concept of order created by others. Another example is that he could take the lifetime of a heavy element, even say something as light as silver and have its lifetime drastically shortened because he thinks it needs to be that way, and release as much energy as a nuclear bomb (more if you make neutrinos react with the surrounding atoms.) Also at one instant the order of the molecules that are affected would have normal energy, but have extremely low entropy due to similar conditions on all of them. This leads to the release of energy that basically fills the entropy well and releases the energy stored in it. As the energy was already in the atoms affected, all he needs to do is put in a little bit of energy, most likely a hammers tap, to snap all the molecules into the right orientation (for lack of a better term) that involves nuclear decomposition. That is the beauty, he basically is making the universe go faster to its heat death! The way that the order seems to be established is that the energy he releases is stored in (generally higher order) negative entropy. The deck of cards could not be ordered had there not been the original flinging of the deck. Thus i think people may have merit in saying that thermodynamics holds, it is just there is most likely an etheric way of getting his energy transferred into negative entropy. Nobody has yet responded to the sliding comment so i will try to give a more detailed explanation. In quantum mechanics, there is a small chance of a particle being outside of a finite potential well, even though there are constraints on the boundary conditions (a particle can go outside walls due to it being a wave). If he could theoretically simultaneously manipulate the probability of all the molecules in his body at once he could teleport, but this is also a violation of thermodynamics that i had not taken into account before. Is it possible that George is somehow using her emotions to make up the difference in entropy/energy? This would make me conclude that George also has control over probability, but has a different etheric method of getting the probability to work out. Would this possibly mean that George is more suited to making a silver nuclear reactor? Thoughts? Back to the more biological discussion, what would it take for him to actually make someone love him. The brain as we know it is a matrix of many different chains of molecules interacting in such a fashion to make consciousness. would he have to know the underlying principles that make up the body and thus the mind (the body is a plaything of the body after all) in order to make someone think thoughts, or would his order be more along the lines of the higher order deck of card line of thinking and would he just be able to will somebody into loving him? That should be good for now, i need to get back to linguistics homework.
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Post by Mylian on Nov 8, 2010 14:22:02 GMT
Back to the more biological discussion, what would it take for him to actually make someone love him. Love is a chaotic state. His power goes in the wrong direction to induce it. But if he slapped a hysterical person in the face, they would be thinking more clearly than ever before in their life. Hey, heck with wearing braces for months, just get Smitty to punch you in the jaw. Instant straight teeth!
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Nov 8, 2010 20:19:39 GMT
The order that Smit's power seems to appeal to is large-system. What if instead of an entropy or chaos basis, Forms are in play in the Gunnerverse based on the concepts within the mind of the god/author? Smitty mayhap activates or supercharges attractors to restore systems iff he adds enough energy for things to sort themselves out. ;D
[edit] Just FYI: The above theory essentially suggests that either matter retains memory of the Form that it has had, at least the most recent Form, tucked somewhere among the extra dimensions of/in its particles, or that such knowledge is contained within the fabric of reality itself. [/edit]
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