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Post by jayne on Nov 8, 2010 20:23:07 GMT
Back to the more biological discussion, what would it take for him to actually make someone love him. Love is a chaotic state. His power goes in the wrong direction to induce it. But if he slapped a hysterical person in the face, they would be thinking more clearly than ever before in their life. Hey, heck with wearing braces for months, just get Smitty to punch you in the jaw. Instant straight teeth! Or your teeth could all fall out and land in a very orderly pile on the ground.  |
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Post by Mezzaphor on Nov 9, 2010 2:20:24 GMT
Through the comics, and some input previously, the objects ordered seem to be ordered when Andrew decides they should be. He decided to help them throw the stone, throw the deck and other things. Smitface didn't decide to ruin the sim, but his powers did it anyway. |
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snuggly
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Post by snuggly on Nov 11, 2010 6:03:49 GMT
Back to the more biological discussion, what would it take for him to actually make someone love him. Love is a chaotic state. His power goes in the wrong direction to induce it. But if he slapped a hysterical person in the face, they would be thinking more clearly than ever before in their life. Hey, heck with wearing braces for months, just get Smitty to punch you in the jaw. Instant straight teeth! Love is the farthest from chaotic i could possibly imagine. Chaos is a lack of order, where as love is an order in itself. We can also use theoretical units of understanding as well because without understanding there can be no love (you have to know what a significant other looks like, basic facts about their existence, etc). Without order there is no way for love to exist. Through the comics, and some input previously, the objects ordered seem to be ordered when Andrew decides they should be. He decided to help them throw the stone, throw the deck and other things. Smitface didn't decide to ruin the sim, but his powers did it anyway. He decided he wanted the object, as was the goal of the simulation in question. Anybody have any other feedback? |
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Post by evilanagram on Nov 11, 2010 8:14:10 GMT
How is love tied to order in any way?
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Post by Aris Katsaris on Nov 11, 2010 11:25:40 GMT
Via peace and harmony, I'd suppose. Things/People that love each other are more likely to be in harmony with each other. Things/People that hate each other are more likely to be in conflict with each other.
If we can consider conflict to be chaotic and peace to be ordered, then love is more likely to lead to order than hatred is.
But I don't know if those are your definitions of order and chaos.
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Post by Mylian on Nov 11, 2010 16:46:28 GMT
Love is not analogous to peace. Love is a turbulent and chaotic emotion. It's about as peaceful as a ride on the most extreme rollercoaster you can find. What you're doing is confusing the dichotomies. Don't worry though, most people do.  Both order and disorder have creative and destructive aspects. Love is chaotic, but it's also creative. |
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Post by evilanagram on Nov 11, 2010 17:42:56 GMT
I agree with Mylian. Life itself is extremely chaotic, while civilization is an attempt to reign this chaos in with order. Love, as an emotion (if one accepts that it is an emotion, but this is not the topic for that philosophical debate), is complex, turbulent, and hard to control. It is chaotic.
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snuggly
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Post by snuggly on Nov 11, 2010 17:50:05 GMT
Okay, lets put it another way. Love is an emotion. Hate is an emotion. Wanting to do whatever the hell you want is a feeling, which is related to an emotion.
Level 1 order: The definition of these concepts is a form of order (love is defined)
Level 2 order: The actions of a person under the influence of an emotion are predictable. (anger makes people want to hurt people, love is just a little more complex to state)
Level 3 order: Actually having these emotions is imposing an order on the state of your consciousness, and by extension body. (it theoretically takes about 10,000 time the energy to learn something than the actual energy that is stored in your mind (law of thermodynamics(Stephen Hawking)))
This is not a reflection of the romanticism of emotions that people have created, such as the thought that love is undefinable, or that peace and harmony have anything to do with love (my parents love each other and they argue mercilessly). This is a rational explanation of the order that emotions create. This is not an exhaustive list of order imposed by emotions either.
All thought can eventually be related down to neurochemistry. This is the element of order that I was trying to invoke in the statement that Andrew could theoretically cause intense emotion, I gave the example of love but it could work with things such as boredom as well.
Cheers!
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Post by evilanagram on Nov 11, 2010 17:55:47 GMT
Emotions don't impose order on a consciousness. They certainly affect the consciousness, but the effect they have is usually not all that orderly. Especially powerful emotions, such as love and hate, certainly don't impose order on the consciousness.
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snuggly
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Post by snuggly on Nov 11, 2010 18:07:33 GMT
Care to back that explanation?
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Post by evilanagram on Nov 11, 2010 18:17:55 GMT
Care to back up yours?
Emotions are often seen as complicating factors. For centuries, people thought of the mind as separated into two opposing aspects: The rational and the emotional. Emotions were seen as the driving force behind undisciplined minds because they would drive people to irrational actions. Love, in particular, can push someone to act like a lunatic, such as when fairly normal people start stalking their exes because they cannot accept that the relationship is over. The concept of love is complicated, and the actions it is the driving force behind can be difficult to predict. Love may be many things, but it is not orderly.
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snuggly
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Post by snuggly on Nov 11, 2010 18:35:40 GMT
Emotions are often seen as complicating factors. For centuries, people thought of the mind as separated into two opposing aspects: The rational and the emotional. Emotions were seen as the driving force behind undisciplined minds because they would drive people to irrational actions. Love, in particular, can push someone to act like a lunatic, such as when fairly normal people start stalking their exes because they cannot accept that the relationship is over. The concept of love is complicated, and the actions it is the driving force behind can be difficult to predict.
Love may be many things, but it is A driving factor.
In your own words you said that love causes you to act. That is the entire point of what i am saying. The actions may not make sense, but it is order because it makes sense to the mind in question (at least subconsciously). It is a drive. It is centuries past that has seen what i see as a despicable separation of emotion and rationality.
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Post by evilanagram on Nov 11, 2010 18:42:01 GMT
The fact that an emotion can act as a drive does not make it an aspect of order.
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snuggly
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Post by snuggly on Nov 11, 2010 18:45:36 GMT
Umm, out of curiosity what is your definition of order?
Entropy is the antithesis of order. Any action that is not simply classical physics, such as choosing to lunging with a sword, or talking to someone is using energy in order to gain some entropy. This is why i see learning and emotion as orderly.
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Post by evilanagram on Nov 11, 2010 19:03:12 GMT
There are several definitions ranging from the arrangement of particles or objects to the sociological concept of enforcing "normal" modes of behavior to more general philosophical concepts. Generally, I consider that which is meticulously arranged, rigidly enforced, easily predictable, and logically rationalized to be ordered. Of course, there are different degrees of orderliness.
I consider powerful emotions to be chaotic because their effects can be difficult to predict and can destroy any semblance of order in one's life if not balanced out to some degree.
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Post by evilanagram on Nov 11, 2010 19:06:58 GMT
Umm, out of curiosity what is your definition of order? Entropy is the antithesis of order. Any action that is not simply classical physics, such as choosing to lunging with a sword, or talking to someone is using energy in order to gain some entropy. This is why i see learning and emotion as orderly. If any action uses energy to gain entropy, then any action that's driven by emotion also gains entropy. So, actions driven by emotions generate disorder. Therefore, emotion generates disorder. Personally, I'm going with a more philosophical definition than scientific, though this thread may be more of a scientific place. |
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snuggly
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Post by snuggly on Nov 12, 2010 1:54:54 GMT
Woops, had my sign reversed there, i meant to say it was a loss of entropy.
My argument against the emotion thing is that the overall actions that someone takes are relatively predictable in highly emotional situations. Take, for example, someone reporting that their husband/wife is killed. The main suspect at first is always the spouse. Emotion leads to predictable trends, if not specific actions. Like jealousy leads to someone either not liking someone else or confrontations. This is what i meant by Level 2 order in my previous post.
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Post by Mylian on Nov 12, 2010 4:00:28 GMT
So you're arguing that the murder of a spouse, which usually comes un-premeditated in the heat of domestic turmoil, is an aspect of order?
Aspects of chaos can have predictable results. If you detonate a thermonuclear weapon, you can estimate beforehand the power and range of the destruction that will follow.
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snuggly
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Post by snuggly on Nov 12, 2010 6:14:13 GMT
Good, you are understanding the point that I am trying to argue
There is order imposed, you can predict everything that there is in a nuclear explosion, from the way that people melt when they are close enough, to the fires that start to the anarchy that will ensue, To everything. There is a certain value of order to there simply being a human psyche.
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Post by hal9000 on Nov 12, 2010 7:04:53 GMT
good you are finally starting to understand. There is order imposed, you can predict everything that there is in a nuclear explosion, from the way that people melt when they are close enough, to the fires that start to the anarchy that will ensue, To everything. There is a certain value of order to there simply being a human psyche. We can only predict these things because we have used science and math to calculate the magnitude and disposition of the energy output from the bomb (and done tests to confirm it). That is to say, every emotion is just the result of some electrical signals and biochemical reactions in the brain, so that you could theoretically determine with some accuracy the outcome if you could make a good model of the brain and had some knowledge the inputs and variables involved. Just because you could theoretically simulate the effect of emotions on someone's thought-processes doesn't mean that emotions lead to order or rationality, though. Certainly, you wouldn't use emotions to help you develop that brain model or find out the variables involved; you'd use the scientific method. |
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Post by Aris Katsaris on Nov 12, 2010 9:24:41 GMT
"Love is not analogous to peace. Love is a turbulent and chaotic emotion. It's about as peaceful as a ride on the most extreme rollercoaster you can find. "
I think you're primarily thinking of teenage love: which is turbulent and chaotic because mostly for them it's *new* and based on swift-changing lusts. It's not the love that's chaotic, it's the teenage years as a whole.
Compare on the other hand the constancy of a mother loving her children, or children loving their mother, and you'll see that it most definitely is a thing that functions as a creator of order.
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snuggly
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Post by snuggly on Nov 12, 2010 9:28:55 GMT
Yes, i will concede that point. I got off topic and emotional. This is more supposed to be an exploration of what Andrew's powers are and what the impacts would be on the universe we are in.
Does anyone have any other ideas on how andrews powers could affect the world in such a way that no one has thought of?
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Post by legion on Nov 12, 2010 10:45:37 GMT
Random clues:
order≠balance, what is ordered can be strongly unbalanced (if arrange 100 balls as a 10x10 square, in a corner of a box that can holds 1000 balls, that's ordered, but that's not balanced).
chaos≠unbalance, chaotic assignment can lead to very homogeneous repartition (if I throw balls at random on a 100x100 space, after a number of balls, their population density will be the same everywhere no matter which surface area I measure).
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Post by Mylian on Nov 12, 2010 16:38:29 GMT
"Love is not analogous to peace. Love is a turbulent and chaotic emotion. It's about as peaceful as a ride on the most extreme rollercoaster you can find. " I think you're primarily thinking of teenage love: Isn't that the kind of love we're talking about here? The proposition was that Smitty could use his power as some kind of love potion. |
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Post by Mylian on Nov 12, 2010 16:40:40 GMT
Good, you are understanding the point that I am trying to argue There is order imposed, you can predict everything that there is in a nuclear explosion, from the way that people melt when they are close enough, to the fires that start to the anarchy that will ensue, To everything. There is a certain value of order to there simply being a human psyche. There is a degree of order to be found in chaos. There is a degree of chaos to be found in order. Would you then agree with me if I were to hypothetically assert that order actually IS chaos, and vice versa? |
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Post by evilanagram on Nov 12, 2010 19:03:08 GMT
"Love is not analogous to peace. Love is a turbulent and chaotic emotion. It's about as peaceful as a ride on the most extreme rollercoaster you can find. " I think you're primarily thinking of teenage love: which is turbulent and chaotic because mostly for them it's *new* and based on swift-changing lusts. It's not the love that's chaotic, it's the teenage years as a whole. Compare on the other hand the constancy of a mother loving her children, or children loving their mother, and you'll see that it most definitely is a thing that functions as a creator of order. Have you seen middle aged dating pools? Since my dad died several years ago, I've had the pleasure of hearing my mother's stories, and it's safe to say that dating does not become simpler or more mature just because you're a little older. |
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Post by jayne on Nov 12, 2010 19:51:57 GMT
I believe you're talking about something in a stable state versus something in a changing state.
"Mother & Child" love is stable. "Dating (of various ages)" love is not stable, more chaotic.
You can remove love from the equation entirely.
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Post by Aris Katsaris on Nov 14, 2010 18:55:18 GMT
Have you seen middle aged dating pools? Since my dad died several years ago, I've had the pleasure of hearing my mother's stories, and it's safe to say that dating does not become simpler or more mature just because you're a little older. "Dating" doesn't have much to do with love, except as a euphemism. |
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Spike
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Post by Spike on Nov 25, 2010 21:13:12 GMT
Smitt's power is to create order, right? And as has been seen and mentioned by basser, he creates order in what seems correct to a human. This implies he manipulates probability, be it subconsciously or consciously, no? He has to interact with objects to create order, like the throwing of the deck of cards and the throwing of the blinker stone (which rises an interesting point, to which I'll get later). Yet, in the simulation, the Rod is there, lying on the floor. That would mean that the simulation was programmed wrongly, yes? But then his power either induced the flaw onto the program or set off a chain of coincidences that led up to the point of accidentally flawing the simulation. No actual interaction happened. His reaction implies he didn't want this, so he subconsciously creates order, be it un-willingly or willingly. The fact that his power flawed the program implies that his power is omnipresent (omni-time-present? It seems only to be given in Smittface's immediate surroundings), and creates order for the future and through the past.
With this information, I think I can safely state the answer to his powers:
A wizard did it.
In all seriousness, as his power seems to be omnipresent(?), I would think it's a recollection of the situation, general mood of the environment, and the overall thoughts about the situation what defines the "order" Smith' power is about to "create".
So it is most likely an etheric phenomenon, ehich could well be defined as, yes, magic.
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sharp
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Post by sharp on Nov 26, 2010 1:45:53 GMT
Now, I may be the last person to ask on the subject, but perhaps you're thinking about this with the wrong science? Maybe instead of physics, you should try thinking in terms of mathematics?
If Smitty's ability is rooted in probability, then isn't math a more relevant science? The way that I always thought it worked was: "If the odds of this happening are 100/1, then his power changes the odds to 1/1." Not so much that he influences the outcome, so much as he changes the rules to fit an expected outcome.
Also, I think that Smitty's ability works in a way so that it always appears to be Luck more than anything. So far, all of the times we've seen his power, it would appear that he is really (really) lucky! After all, how could the manipulation of atoms and particles "make" a bird fly into the path of the blinker stone? If he could simply alter the properties of the stone, he would have made it super-dense mid-flight correct?
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