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Post by November on Oct 17, 2010 0:42:50 GMT
In this comic, in the first three panels, Annie is not looking at anyone... she's deep in thought. Look at panel 6. We see the back of her head, as if she's turning her head towards Parley. We can't see Annie's face at all, which we would have, from that point of view, if she hadn't moved her head and was still staring into space. Yeah yeah, Kat's in the way, but you can see a tiny bit of Annie's hair past Kat's neck, so it's the back of her head. That means Annie moved her head. Towards the direction stuff happened. She knew what happpened. Deal with it.
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Post by Casey on Oct 17, 2010 2:18:56 GMT
Is this argument really about where Annie's eyes are, or is it about where Annie's mind is?
This is one of the reasons it is so frustrating trying to make a point on these boards, is that people will pick apart the tiniest minutiae and completely overlook the overall point.
In this case, Jayne, you let them drag you into an argument about where Annie's eyes were pointing which is completely irrelevant. She could be watching their every bip, and her mind could still be on something else, which is what your real point was. Score another valid point of view nitpicked to death by people with too much criticism in their hearts.
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Post by jayne on Oct 17, 2010 2:31:17 GMT
I don't know, I thought 'zoning out' was so familiar anyone could understand. When I'm deep in thought, the TV is on and sometimes my husband it telling me something but until I'm 'snapped out of it' I don't see or hear anything really. "What did you say?" and sometimes he'll mention something that was just on TV and I didn't really see it or pay attention to it.
That's what I think Annie is doing...
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Post by jayne on Oct 17, 2010 3:20:51 GMT
In this comic, in the first three panels, Annie is not looking at anyone... she's deep in thought. Look at panel 6. We see the back of her head, as if she's turning her head towards Parley. We can't see Annie's face at all, which we would have, from that point of view, if she hadn't moved her head and was still staring into space. Yeah yeah, Kat's in the way, but you can see a tiny bit of Annie's hair past Kat's neck, so it's the back of her head. That means Annie moved her head. Towards the direction stuff happened. She knew what happpened. Deal with it. Kat's blocking our view of Annie. That could be the side of her head as much as it could be the back of her head. As for "deal with it"... with what? You don't agree with me? Fine, no problem. You don't understand what I'm saying... I can't fix that so there's still nothing for me to deal with.
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Post by jayne on Oct 17, 2010 4:21:18 GMT
Is this argument really about where Annie's eyes are, or is it about where Annie's mind is? This is one of the reasons it is so frustrating trying to make a point on these boards, is that people will pick apart the tiniest minutiae and completely overlook the overall point. In this case, Jayne, you let them drag you into an argument about where Annie's eyes were pointing which is completely irrelevant. She could be watching their every bip, and her mind could still be on something else, which is what your real point was. Score another valid point of view nitpicked to death by people with too much criticism in their hearts. I never mind debating, even a minute point, but if their argument makes no sense, I think they don't understand what I mean. I said I thought Annie was deep in thought, but the argument against that is her head is turned slightly. You can be deep in thought AND have your head turned slightly. The argument is not logical.
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Post by atteSmythe on Oct 17, 2010 5:09:15 GMT
Under the heading of "Overthinking is my legal first name" Annie isn't reacting to the couple... she's in her own zone... she's simply not noticing the bips or even the change of relationship status. I predict Kat will very shortly snap her out of this, either on Monday or at the change of scene. "What was your deal?" I thought that just one comic ago, Annie's "So." was deliberately meant to bring everyone back to the moment. She said it after see Kat get all squee over Parley and Smit. You guys might have missed that during the totally topical discussion over whether good and/or evil require reasoning. I just can't see Annie being aware of what Smit & Parley were up to last page, but not this page. I also consider it quite out of character for her to start a conversation, get a response, and then immediately ignore everyone that was involved in it. For Annie to have 'zoned out,' it would have had to have happened after she just relayed the entire story, got the group's input on what to do next, and called everyone's attention back to it again, all in the same conversation. Possible? Sure. It's certainly not what I'm taking away from these last few pages, though.
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Post by jayne on Oct 17, 2010 5:21:23 GMT
Under the heading of "Overthinking is my legal first name" Annie isn't reacting to the couple... she's in her own zone... she's simply not noticing the bips or even the change of relationship status. I predict Kat will very shortly snap her out of this, either on Monday or at the change of scene. "What was your deal?" I thought that just one comic ago, Annie's "So." was deliberately meant to bring everyone back to the moment. She said it after see Kat get all squee over Parley and Smit. You guys might have missed that during the totally topical discussion over whether good and/or evil require reasoning. I just can't see Annie being aware of what Smit & Parley were up to last page, but not this page. I also consider it quite out of character for her to start a conversation, get a response, and then immediately ignore everyone that was involved in it. For Annie to have 'zoned out,' it would have had to have happened after she just relayed the entire story, got the group's input on what to do next, and called everyone's attention back to it again, all in the same conversation. Possible? Sure. It's certainly not what I'm taking away from these last few pages, though. I thought so too when I read that but then she didn't seem annoyed when it didn't work... As for the "totally non-topical discussion", if there's another reply, I'll move it to new thread. I'd love to hear how you can have any kind of concept without a conscious mind.
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Post by Goatmon on Oct 17, 2010 7:04:23 GMT
Oh you beat me to it, these were exactly my thoughts. I think it's plausible. :o Or alternatively, she has a crush on someone but hasn't had any opportunity to act upon it yet. After all, Kat did at least get her week with Aly before he flew away, and Smitty and Parley are being all lovey-dovey…maybe she's just getting a little tired of having it rubbed in her face that she's all alone, without her Mum or Dad or anyone… :'( I hate you people.
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Post by Goatmon on Oct 17, 2010 7:13:57 GMT
For all her ingenuity and cleverness, she tends to be extremely oblivious to social subtleties. That's about it, really. Again, based on material in A Medium Beginning, S1, Jupiter Moon Martians, heck all over the comic, I STRONGLY disagree with the notion that Annie is in any way oblivious to social subtleties. She's been pretty much the worst out of the main cast when it comes to understanding a lot of the Do's and Don't's in how people generally behave. It's not like she has no social skills, she just tends to be more withdrawn and distant, and it shows sometimes. She's pretty much the worst out of the main cast when it comes to understanding a lot of the Do's and Don't's in how people generally behave, other than Zimmy. It's not like she has no social skills, she just tends to be more withdrawn and distant, and it shows sometimes. Hell it shows pretty constantly with her minimalist expression throughout most of the comic. One of the few times Annie showed a look of serious shock, Tom even commented that she actually made a face. She's just not affected as strongly by these things as most kids. That, or she just doesn't express it openly. But seriously, if you think Annie has no social problems, I think you just have a bad memory. www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=34www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=241(and note how she casually continues talking to Kat as if she didn't just do something inappropriate) www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=242And she nearly gets herself killed here (even if she had reason to taken offense, it corroborates with her sub-par social skills) www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=284
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Post by Casey on Oct 17, 2010 8:18:58 GMT
You show a scene where Annie stands up to a bully in defense of a friend, and another scene where Annie stands up to a god in defense of herself.
And you do this... to demonstrate that she has social problems?
Goodnight, seriously.
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Post by hal9000 on Oct 17, 2010 11:53:17 GMT
You show a scene where Annie stands up to a bully in defense of a friend, and another scene where Annie stands up to a god in defense of herself. And you do this... to demonstrate that she has social problems? Goodnight, seriously. Way to totally not address the scene where she lifts by the shirt and physically overpowers a harmless and innocent bystander (who had just said that his condition required him to not subject himself to physical exertion or harm) to prove a point. Furthermore, flooring some guy because he shoved your friend during a basketball game is not 'standing up to a bully'. It is behavior that usually gets you arrested for assault with battery or some equivalent charge in most countries on earth. It's an absurd overreaction given the circumstances, it does demonstrate that she has social problems, and you can't just dismiss it casually because you don't like the idea. Finally, slapping a literal, physical god is obviously an enormously stupid thing to do, regardless of how well it turned out in the end.
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Post by xheralt on Oct 17, 2010 13:53:03 GMT
Naamah (Welcome!) and Alexandragon: Teleportation, if you listen to quantum physicists describing it for a general audience, sounds something like the Infinite Improbability Drive from the Hitchhiker's Guide books. It is so vastly, astronomically, unlikely that for practical intents and purposes it doesn't happen, but spontaneously vanishing from where you are and reappearing on the other side of a blank wall is a finite -- and calculable -- quantity. Parley can do that much at least. But going exactly where you want to go? If her 'port is inherently random, than where she ends up is (the volume of the universe) divided by (the volume of her body). One chance (a desired location) out of that number is, again, staggeringly improbable. But consider what Andrew (and it is weird to be calling him that) *does* to the laws of probability....and how staggeringly powerful his talent must be to direct Parley's teleportation.... As far as Annie's wet-blanket approach, she had already reached the conclusion that Parley and Smitty were in love (back at the bedroom-arrival) and what pained her was that The Natural Order Of Things (Parley and Smitty being together) was Not Happening. Now that they *are* together, emotional feng shui has been achieved and she just drives on. Also bear in mind that Annie got the same searing emotional infodump from Jeanne that Parley does -- and *doesn't* have anybody to help her share it or process it. I don't think she's specifically jealous of Parley/Smitty, I think she would be envious of any relationship right now, the way single people hate Valentine's Day.
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Post by jayne on Oct 17, 2010 13:55:00 GMT
It isn't a problem if it isn't bothering anyone. Annie just reacts in her own, rather studious way.
When she picked up Ally, she was focusing too much on "I wonder if he's really light" instead of respecting his personal space. She did apologize later.
When she throws Winsbury... they're in Games Lessons and she most likely learned how to throw people in games lessons taught by her father. Winsbury had already shown he likes picking on people and this was a fairly effective way to tell him he shouldn't think of her or Kat as easy victims. It did work and they got along fine afterwards.
So if you wrestle random people on the street, you're guilty of a crime. If you wrestle people in sports class, its practice.
As for Coyote's cold nose... she reacted without thinking. Raise your hand if you've never done that yourself.
No problem.
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Post by Elaienar on Oct 17, 2010 17:22:47 GMT
As far as Annie's wet-blanket approach, she had already reached the conclusion that Parley and Smitty were in love (back at the bedroom-arrival) and what pained her was that The Natural Order Of Things (Parley and Smitty being together) was Not Happening. Now that they *are* together, emotional feng shui has been achieved and she just drives on. Out of all the possible explanations for Antimony's behaviour, I like this one the best. Especially given that she's displayed that peculiar sort of tunnel-vision before (particularly in the pages linked above) focusing on one thing and what she should do to fix it or understand it, while forgetting to factor in how her actions or words will affect other people. In addition, she doesn't seem inclined to linger on a problem once a solution has been found and put into action.
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Post by hal9000 on Oct 17, 2010 22:25:14 GMT
When she throws Winsbury... they're in Games Lessons and she most likely learned how to throw people in games lessons taught by her father. Winsbury had already shown he likes picking on people and this was a fairly effective way to tell him he shouldn't think of her or Kat as easy victims. It did work and they got along fine afterwards. So if you wrestle random people on the street, you're guilty of a crime. If you wrestle people in sports class, its practice. She did get called out for throwing Winsbury, she just didn't get any punishment for it because Eglamore went easy on her. Also, basketball =! wrestling/martial arts, as far as I'm aware. Generally if you pick someone up and throw them during the middle of a basketball game it gets you kicked out of the game, at the very least.
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Post by jayne on Oct 17, 2010 22:47:44 GMT
When she throws Winsbury... they're in Games Lessons and she most likely learned how to throw people in games lessons taught by her father. Winsbury had already shown he likes picking on people and this was a fairly effective way to tell him he shouldn't think of her or Kat as easy victims. It did work and they got along fine afterwards. So if you wrestle random people on the street, you're guilty of a crime. If you wrestle people in sports class, its practice. She did get called out for throwing Winsbury, she just didn't get any punishment for it because Eglamore went easy on her. Also, basketball =! wrestling/martial arts, as far as I'm aware. Generally if you pick someone up and throw them during the middle of a basketball game it gets you kicked out of the game, at the very least. Yeah but you also don't say "Hey, give that back. I had it first" in the middle of a basketball game, do you? There wasn't a game going on, Winsbury was just picking on them.
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Post by hal9000 on Oct 18, 2010 0:18:23 GMT
She did get called out for throwing Winsbury, she just didn't get any punishment for it because Eglamore went easy on her. Also, basketball =! wrestling/martial arts, as far as I'm aware. Generally if you pick someone up and throw them during the middle of a basketball game it gets you kicked out of the game, at the very least. Yeah but you also don't say "Hey, give that back. I had it first" in the middle of a basketball game, do you? There wasn't a game going on, Winsbury was just picking on them. We don't know the context of that statement, since it's on the first panel of the first page of that chapter. Your reading of it is just as valid as any other, though. Edit: but that still doesn't make it okay for Annie to do what she did.
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Post by jayne on Oct 18, 2010 0:24:36 GMT
Yeah but you also don't say "Hey, give that back. I had it first" in the middle of a basketball game, do you? There wasn't a game going on, Winsbury was just picking on them. We don't know the context of that statement, since it's on the first panel of the first page of that chapter. Your reading of it is just as valid as any other, though. Edit: but that still doesn't make it okay for Annie to do what she did. In the next comic, there's no one else interacting with these three like there would be during a game and Winsbury was sent to do laps. Why would he be sent to do laps if they were playing? The rest of his team would complain for being a man down. And, yeah.. Annie isn't a saint. I'd say her behavior was about as bad as Winsbury's behavior. In both their defense... they're 12! Who is a saint at age 12 anyway?
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Post by hal9000 on Oct 18, 2010 0:35:47 GMT
We don't know the context of that statement, since it's on the first panel of the first page of that chapter. Your reading of it is just as valid as any other, though. Edit: but that still doesn't make it okay for Annie to do what she did. In the next comic, there's no one else interacting with these three like there would be during a game and Winsbury was sent to do laps. Why would he be sent to do laps if they were playing? The rest of his team would complain for being a man down. And, yeah.. Annie isn't a saint. I'd say her behavior was about as bad as Winsbury's behavior. In both their defense... they're 12! Who is a saint at age 12 anyway? None of them are saints, but most normal 12-year-olds won't judo-throw someone onto the floor over a disagreement about who had the ball first.
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Post by jayne on Oct 18, 2010 1:06:40 GMT
In the next comic, there's no one else interacting with these three like there would be during a game and Winsbury was sent to do laps. Why would he be sent to do laps if they were playing? The rest of his team would complain for being a man down. And, yeah.. Annie isn't a saint. I'd say her behavior was about as bad as Winsbury's behavior. In both their defense... they're 12! Who is a saint at age 12 anyway? None of them are saints, but most normal 12-year-olds won't judo-throw someone onto the floor over a disagreement about who had the ball first. Here's a 12 year old girl... also in sports lessons. If a 12 year old girl knows how to throw someone correctly, and a 12 year old boy starts bullying her and her friend... she just might throw the bully. And if the point of this is that Annie doesn't know better, she did apologize after being told that wasn't the best way to handle the situation.
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Post by evilanagram on Oct 18, 2010 1:34:52 GMT
I don't think he was saying that most 12 year-old girls can't throw someone to the ground over a disagreement so much as he was saying that most 12 year-old girls wouldn't do it because it's a major overreaction.
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Post by hal9000 on Oct 18, 2010 1:40:54 GMT
Oh, so then you think she did know better but did it anyway? That seems even worse to me. That is to say, it would mean that Annie is a sociopath instead of just unable to judge the appropriate response.
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Post by jayne on Oct 18, 2010 1:46:21 GMT
Oh, so then you think she did know better but did it anyway? That seems even worse to me. That seems worse? Think of any time you've had to tell a kid they were bad and they said they were sorry.... did that make it seem worse then or is Annie a special case? "Bobby, you shouldn't have pulled your sister's hair" "I know... I'm sorry..." But he knew better and did it anyway. Is Bobby a worse kid than Annie or are you just expecting more from her? Is Winsbury a sociopath because he pushed Kat but he knew he shouldn't have?
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Post by hal9000 on Oct 18, 2010 1:50:22 GMT
Oh, so then you think she did know better but did it anyway? That seems even worse to me. That seems worse? Think of any time you've had to tell a kid they were bad and they said they were sorry.... did that make it seem worse then or is Annie a special case? "Bobby, you shouldn't have pulled your sister's hair" "I know... I'm sorry..." But he knew better and did it anyway. Is Bobby a worse kid than Annie or are you just expecting more from her? Your example might make sense if we were talking about five-year-olds (who, by the way, can't fully comprehend the right and wrong of their actions despite what they say). We tend to hold adolescents to a higher standard than that, yes.
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Post by jayne on Oct 18, 2010 1:51:54 GMT
That seems worse? Think of any time you've had to tell a kid they were bad and they said they were sorry.... did that make it seem worse then or is Annie a special case? "Bobby, you shouldn't have pulled your sister's hair" "I know... I'm sorry..." But he knew better and did it anyway. Is Bobby a worse kid than Annie or are you just expecting more from her? Your example might make sense if we were talking about five-year-olds. We tend to hold adolescents to a higher standard than that, yes. So, if Eglamore told Winsbury "You know that wasn't the best way to handle the situation" when he pushed Kat, and he responded "I understand, I'm sorry" would you argue he was also a sociopath?
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Post by hal9000 on Oct 18, 2010 2:01:41 GMT
Your example might make sense if we were talking about five-year-olds. We tend to hold adolescents to a higher standard than that, yes. So, if Eglamore told Winsbury "You know that wasn't the best way to handle the situation" when he pushed Kat, and he responded "I understand, I'm sorry" would you argue he was also a sociopath? I dunno, but since that's not what happened I think it is a largely irrelevant hypothetical.
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Post by jayne on Oct 18, 2010 2:06:00 GMT
In this one, Annie cheats on a paper Does this mean she's a strange odd kid who will end up in prison some day? Is there some terrible future in store for her because she cheats?? Now, imagine Winsbury cheated in exactly the same way. Do you imagine the same dire fate for him? NOW, remember back in school.... did you ever cheat?
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Post by jayne on Oct 18, 2010 2:07:42 GMT
So, if Eglamore told Winsbury "You know that wasn't the best way to handle the situation" when he pushed Kat, and he responded "I understand, I'm sorry" would you argue he was also a sociopath? I dunno, but since that's not what happened I think it is a largely irrelevant hypothetical. Why? I'm applying your logic to another case to see if the response is the same. If you're holding Annie to a different standard than any other kid in her class, that doesn't seem right.
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Post by jayne on Oct 18, 2010 2:16:07 GMT
The point is, you're trying to show Annie has social problems. If she has social problems because she did something she knew she shouldn't have, then Winsbury should also have social problems because he did something he knew he shouldn't have. He took Kat's ball and pushed her. She knocked Winsbury down. No one was hurt and they both got in trouble for it.
This isn't enough to support the idea that Annie has social problems.
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Post by hal9000 on Oct 18, 2010 2:16:51 GMT
In this one, Annie cheats on a paper Does this mean she's a strange odd kid who will end up in prison some day? Is there some terrible future in store for her because she cheats?? Now, imagine Winsbury cheated in exactly the same way. Do you imagine the same dire fate for him? NOW, remember back in school.... did you ever cheat? You seem to be implying that I've got some sort of double-standard here. I don't really appreciate that implication, because it is false. If Winsbury were the protagonist and were doing all of these things that Annie has done, I'd be saying the same things about him. You also seem to be implying that I think Annie is some strange odd kid who will end up in prison. That's also false, as "Annie is a sociopath" is an assumption for the sake of argument based on your theory that she did all these things despite knowing they were wrong. As an aside, there are plenty of sociopaths who reach the top levels of power in government and finance (as the last two years have shown), so it's not really valid to assume that just because someone is a sociopath they'll end up in prison. Furthermore, no, I never cheated in school.
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