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Post by King Mir on Aug 30, 2010 13:46:52 GMT
So the bottom of the ravine is etherically dead and lifeless. I wonder if it's the same on the other bank, near the forest. Read chapter 8 if you don't remember what the other side is like. There's not much life, so how could it be etherically active?
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Post by aaroncampbell on Aug 30, 2010 14:00:49 GMT
It is only an assumption that the arrow was supposed to hit Jeanne, but I'd say it is a pretty safe one. The "device" was specifically made arrow-shaped, in order to be delivered by a master marksman. From all we know, there's nothing but rocks and water at the bottom of the ravine - you don't need a master marksman to hit either of those (unless maybe you want to hit one specific rock). The arrow was made with etheric components, but we don't know why. Theory: If you have to make an arrow to kill a god, it might look a little different than normal. Wild speculation: What if Jeanne was down there to lure Ysengrin; say he had a crush on her or something. (It happened with Reynardine and Surma, so let's go with the theory.) The shot could have been to kill Ysengrin, but it only crippled him (hence Stedman's comment about hitting the target.) At that point, I suppose it depends on whether Jeanne loved Ysengrin also. If she did, then maybe she killed herself. If not, then maybe Ysengrin killed her in rage -- then in remorse posed her (though she looks fairly undamaged for that to be the case.) Either way, the whole Ysengrin pining for Jeanne thing would explain his presence in the gorge after Annie fell. Perhaps he visits her from time to time?
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Post by djublonskopf on Aug 30, 2010 14:27:30 GMT
I don't think her body was arranged after the fact. The way she's sitting with the sword, it looks like she died waiting . . .. EDIT: And I'd forgotten that Steadman fired nearly straight down.
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lovecraft1024
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Post by lovecraft1024 on Aug 30, 2010 15:39:07 GMT
It is only an assumption that the arrow was supposed to hit Jeanne, but I'd say it is a pretty safe one. The "device" was specifically made arrow-shaped, in order to be delivered by a master marksman. From all we know, there's nothing but rocks and water at the bottom of the ravine - you don't need a master marksman to hit either of those (unless maybe you want to hit one specific rock). It has been my assumption as well that the strange arrow would have hit Jeanne, but there's no evidence in the bones now. It has been said that someone could have gone down there afterward, but none of that was even hinted at in 658 or any other part of that chapter. Just, "then it is done". I'm still wondering about the significance of Jeanne being down there 3 hours before Steadman does the deed. Something to do with psychopomps? But those guys come pretty fast, so it doesn't seem that she could have been dead before they lowered her, if her spirit ended up trapped at the bottom. Also, so far in the comic we've only seen this one view of what Annie is seeing. Perhaps she will do some etheric exploring and find the arrow and it's actual target... Anyway, this is shaping up to be another great chapter!
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Post by spacemilk on Aug 30, 2010 16:38:43 GMT
It is only an assumption that the arrow was supposed to hit Jeanne, but I'd say it is a pretty safe one. The "device" was specifically made arrow-shaped, in order to be delivered by a master marksman. From all we know, there's nothing but rocks and water at the bottom of the ravine - you don't need a master marksman to hit either of those (unless maybe you want to hit one specific rock). The arrow was made with etheric components, but we don't know why. Theory: If you have to make an arrow to kill a god, it might look a little different than normal. Wild speculation: What if Jeanne was down there to lure Ysengrin; say he had a crush on her or something. (It happened with Reynardine and Surma, so let's go with the theory.) The shot could have been to kill Ysengrin, but it only crippled him (hence Stedman's comment about hitting the target.) At that point, I suppose it depends on whether Jeanne loved Ysengrin also. If she did, then maybe she killed herself. If not, then maybe Ysengrin killed her in rage -- then in remorse posed her (though she looks fairly undamaged for that to be the case.) Either way, the whole Ysengrin pining for Jeanne thing would explain his presence in the gorge after Annie fell. Perhaps he visits her from time to time? I thought of this too, but it doesn't explain why they waited for 3 hours, then shot the arrow. They weren't watching to see whether Ysengrin (or anyone) came. And Diego said she was alone when she died. Here are our clues: 1) Jeanne was alone when she died. 2) The arrow did not appear to have hit her, unless it did very little damage and someone removed it later. 3) However she died, it left her spirit behind. And her spirit is very angry and violent. 4) Somehow her death is tied to splitting the Court and the forest, but we don't know why she, specifically, had to die. 5) Whoever the traitor was, he did not come for her when she died. 6) Was the traitor still alive when she died? Wild spec: The arrow went into the water, or hit the edge of the water, close to Jeanne. Then the arrow did something so that she died - sucked her life out or something - and used that to do whatever it was they were doing. (splitting the Court and the forest) That left her spirit there and restless, and it would explain why it looks like she died relatively peacefully, since the arrow didn't actually hit her. She probably had sat down and was maybe sleepy, hence why she was lying down; and she's holding the sword that way because she was probably terrified. I don't think she or anyone else physically harmed her. Ysengrin was probably there to investigate two things: Whether Annie died when she fell (by the way, was her assassination the point of possessed Robot coming back over?) and whether he could figure out what the Court had done to the waters. I doubt it had anything to do with any feelings for Jeanne, though that would neatly tie up the traitor problems (and why they call him "General") as well as provide a neat reason for why he hates all humans so much.
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Post by xheralt on Aug 30, 2010 16:40:43 GMT
The humans of the Court are in full avoidance/denial/coverup mode; they would not have sent anyone down to pose the body.
About the pose, being posed by a Forest denizen is simple and likely, but I can envision that Jeanne was standing in a formal guard pose, point of sword grounded, then died instantly while standing up, and just collapsed backward. *How* she died instantly is another question. The arrow? We know, from the sound effect, that The Arrow hit something -- but was it *her*?
Was she really alone, down in the Annan? Was she already dead, killed by someone from the Forest? Maybe she was killed by magical means?
Maybe she was having a tense parley with a Forest denizen (maybe even "the traitor"), and Steadman shot the Other.
Maybe someone from the Forest preempted the Court's plan to create a Defender of the Court by turning Jeanne into a Defender of the Forest instead? Maybe, if shot by Steadman, the hypothetical Other cursed Jeanne with his/its dying breath.
Note that as The Ghost, Jeanne attacks humans and leaves fairy folk (like the ones who *wanted* to die) alone. As a defense of Humans, shouldn't that be the other way around? Unless The Ghost's purpose is specifically to prevent Court defections to the Forest? That implies that the Court trusted the Forest to respect (or be completely stopped by) the boundary, but not their own people! Of course, the Forest isn't great about it either, typified by Wood-dog raids and such. BTW, are such creatures animated dogwoods?
The other thought is, maybe the Annan Ghost isn't what the Court intended her to be; that she was made aware of the impending betrayal before she died, but after she was in the canyon and trapped there. Maybe that was the tense parley I hypothesize about, above?
The Ghost (no telling how much of Jeanne actually remains in that unquiet soul) perhaps attacks humans because she sees them only as her betrayers. But even as she is, she serves a purpose to the Court's liking.
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lovecraft1024
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Post by lovecraft1024 on Aug 30, 2010 17:19:03 GMT
Regarding Ysengrin:
1) I thought he was not in the forest yet - he and Renard had come later, than then Coyote even later. Does someone have a good idea of that timeline?
2) What was he doing down there after Annie fell? Good question. From what I remember, Annie was down there long enough to go to sleep, and apparently Ysengrin came later after Kat had rescued Annie. Perhaps it was the bright light of the antigrav vehicle that drew him? Still, you have to wonder how much watching from the woods he was doing as his robot-golem was walking out on to the bridge...
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Post by beatfox on Aug 30, 2010 17:33:44 GMT
Coyote states that he, Ysengrin, and Renard all came together to Gillitie Wood (Ysengrin and Renard were in France / Western Europe previously). And since Coyote himself created the ravine, they must have all been there by that time.
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Post by basser on Aug 30, 2010 18:02:34 GMT
She was eaten by suicide faeries.
Okay seriously though, maybe they gave her a poison that took about three hours to take effect. Then they waited around until she was just on the brink of death and had Steadman take aim and shoot poor ol' Muut (or whoever) so that she wouldn't be collected for the afterlife. Her ghost got pissed off and now nobody can collect her cause she goes stab-happy on anyone who tries.
As for Steadman being able to see the Guides, maybe that's why they needed it to be the full moon at a certain hour or whatever, so the Guides would be visible, or maybe Steadman is just One Pimp Fellow and has ether-sense on top of being a kickass archer.
There that's my wild theories for the day.
Edit: and of course whichever Guide got shot wouldn't really be killed or anything, just startled and probably leery of coming anywhere near Jeanne again. Or maybe they did get killed and now Jeanne has no Guide to take her to the afterlife, and now Annie has to do it.
I don't know who the religious guide would be for ye olde-timey french swordmaidens but I guess if it was the same one Annie's mom used that would be a tidy explanation for Annie having to guide her mom off too. Perhaps this whole comic is one long training montage of Annie becoming the next Guide of Mediums and Swordlasses.
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Post by Casey on Aug 30, 2010 18:04:10 GMT
Maybe she was eaten by suicide faeries. Okay seriously though, maybe they gave her a poison that took about three hours to take effect. Then they waited around until she was just on the brink of death and had Steadman take aim and shoot poor ol' Muut (or whoever) so that she wouldn't be collected for the afterlife. Her ghost got pissed off and now nobody can collect her cause she goes stab-happy on anyone who tries. As for Steadman being able to see the Guides, maybe that's why they needed it to be the full moon at a certain hour or whatever, so the Guides would be visible, or maybe Steadman is just One Pimp Fellow and has ether-sense on top of being a kickass archer. There that's my wild theories for the day. Good theories, only, Muut doesn't know who Jeanne is or why they cannot collect her soul.
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Post by basser on Aug 30, 2010 18:09:11 GMT
Good theories, only, Muut doesn't know who Jeanne is or why they cannot collect her soul. Well if she isn't his responsibility he probably wouldn't be expected to know who she is. It's not like the bug Guide knows who all the dead people he passes on his cockroach-collecting rounds are. And well I guess if the original Guide got popped off with the nuclear arrow Muut might not have any clue what happened, since nobody told him. Muut is a pretty busy guy after all. But yeah I don't really believe this, just typing away here.
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Post by Casey on Aug 30, 2010 18:21:14 GMT
Good theories, only, Muut doesn't know who Jeanne is or why they cannot collect her soul. Well if she isn't his responsibility he probably wouldn't be expected to know who she is. It's not like the bug Guide knows who all the dead people he passes on his cockroach-collecting rounds are. And well I guess if the original Guide got popped off with the nuclear arrow Muut might not have any clue what happened, since nobody told him. Muut is a pretty busy guy after all. But yeah I don't really believe this, just typing away here. Yes but remember Muut says "WE don't know who she is" Ref: www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=530And I'm pretty sure the psychopomps would notice if one of their own suddenly got killed.
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Post by alcaz0r on Aug 30, 2010 19:03:59 GMT
I see no reason to assume that someone rearranged Jeanne's remains, or that she died peacefully. Just because she was mortally wounded by an arrow does not mean that she died instantly, or that she simply lay where she fell untill she did expire.
She may have crawled to the wall and clutched her sword for comfort in her final, agonizing moments.
Given the angle of Steadman's shot, and assuming Jeanne would have been looking out over the waters (why would she be staring at a wall?) then the arrow would have likely struck to the right side of her neck. If it could penetrate her flesh (ignoring for now how blunt it looks) then it could possibly lodge in her torso, which would explain why we don't see evidence of it in this comic.
I also like the theory that it was something else they did that killed her, and that the arrow was fired as she died. But, I don't consider it likely that a psychopomp would have been the target, it seems more likely that Jeanne's spirit itself would have been the target.
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lovecraft1024
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Post by lovecraft1024 on Aug 30, 2010 19:55:00 GMT
Coyote states that he, Ysengrin, and Renard all came together to Gillitie Wood (Ysengrin and Renard were in France / Western Europe previously). And since Coyote himself created the ravine, they must have all been there by that time. Silly me, I should have remembered that! Anyway, Ysengrin being the "him"/traitor referred to in #653/654 certainly adds a new level of intrigue! And it certainly could explain his anger with humans.
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Post by legion on Aug 30, 2010 20:20:25 GMT
Something not very unfrightening is going to happen real soon now D:
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Post by Alexandragon on Aug 30, 2010 20:21:44 GMT
Oh... oh my god! That, I was not expecting. As well as I. *Minute of silence* I think, that arrow had absorbed her soul or had "pulled out" soul from a body and it was necessary to remove(pull out) an arrow from body, because while the arrow was obese, the phantom could not leave the body(or the arrow). Wild spec: The arrow went into the water, or hit the edge of the water, close to Jeanne. Then the arrow did something so that she died - sucked her life out or something - and used that to do whatever it was they were doing. (splitting the Court and the forest) That left her spirit there and restless, and it would explain why it looks like she died relatively peacefully, since the arrow didn't actually hit her. She probably had sat down and was maybe sleepy, hence why she was lying down; and she's holding the sword that way because she was probably terrified. I don't think she or anyone else physically harmed her. Ysengrin was probably there to investigate two things: Whether Annie died when she fell (by the way, was her assassination the point of possessed Robot coming back over?) and whether he could figure out what the Court had done to the waters. I doubt it had anything to do with any feelings for Jeanne, though that would neatly tie up the traitor problems (and why they call him "General") as well as provide a neat reason for why he hates all humans so much. 1) It could be truly, as I think P.S.: This chapter makes a great intrigue!
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Aug 30, 2010 20:34:40 GMT
It looks like he's shooting nearly straight downward to me. His arms and bow are over the edge. There's a slight angle, yes, but I would say he it goes along the cliff face, rather than angling away from it toward the waters. This is probably as much for balance and aim as anything else. His right foot's back from the edge a ways. If he is sticking his right hand out over the edge then he can't be sighting along the shaft to aim and when he released the arrow his hand should go straight out instead of winding up by his ear. From that pose I don't think he can even see the near side bank because he'd need to be leaning over the edge. Best guess: Steadman just needed to put it somewhere on the nearside bank somewhere approximate to where she was. If so we should see it soon. Second best guess: He was aiming at something farther out, like Jeanne's astral self or whoever Jeanne was waiting for.
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Post by Casey on Aug 30, 2010 20:40:50 GMT
Third best guess: You're way overthinking things.
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Post by xheralt on Aug 30, 2010 20:59:36 GMT
Silly me, I should have remembered that! Anyway, Ysengrin being the "him"/traitor referred to in #653/654 certainly adds a new level of intrigue! And it certainly could explain his anger with humans. This seems to be my day for not seeing things (witness the locked-and-about-to-be-deleted timeline thread). I'm aware that while alive Jeanne had feelings of some sort for someone who the Court (or at least Deigo) regarded as "the traitor", I don't see where/how was "the traitor" linked to Ysengrim? I wonder how Ysengrim could be considered a traitor? You can only betray what you belong to, and Ysengrim (or Reynardine for that matter) was always -- clearly -- associated with the Forest. Rey is bound (or otherwise vaguely loyal) to Annie now, but he's still first and foremost a Forest being. Another thought about missing arrow -- maybe it evaporated when the etheric component triggered? Which means that maybe Steadman did actually shoot her after all. Guessing otherwise was a nice theory while it lasted....
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Aug 30, 2010 21:00:34 GMT
Third best guess: You're way overthinking things. It's my hobby and sometimes I come across interesting ideas when I overthink things. But seriously, try standing on the edge of your bed (or whatever) and strike that pose. There's a good amount of area on the floor near the edge that's masked from your view. On a cliff that'd be even worse. I will say the "arrow sticking outa Jeanne" theory has one thing going for it in a big way. Since misunderstandings are a running theme in this comic we could use that theory to reinterpret the events at the end of ch. 7 as a huge misunderstanding. If the Forest people had some notion of Jeanne being struck and killed by Steadman's glowy arrow then the shadow-man may have assumed that Antimony was the intended target of Egger's thrown glowy sword. The push Robot gave Antimony may have been intended to save Antimony or at least foil the creation of another barrier. The glare the shadow-man gives in the previous page might have been because he saw Eggers coming, rather than him deciding to turn on Antimony since his mission was now complete. Of course, that would also hold true if Jeanne had been astrally traveling to the Forest side and her etheric form had been struck there on en route. That might explain why Jeanne's ghost first appears on the Forest side and isn't supposed to be able to cross over.
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Post by Alexandragon on Aug 30, 2010 21:11:51 GMT
Also the arrow could be some type of "anchor", that explains its strange form, which clung to soul, and consequently they have shot through Gin, so the arrow would wound she and would go away together with her spirit. If the Forest people had some notion of Jeanne being struck and killed by Steadman's glowy arrow then the shadow-man may have assumed that Antimony was the intended target of Egger's thrown glowy sword. The push Robot gave Antimony may have been intended to save Antimony or at least foil the creation of another barrier. The glare the shadow-man gives in the previous page might have been because he saw Eggers coming, rather than him deciding to turn on Antimony since his mission was now complete. Of course, that would also hold true if Jeanne had been astrally traveling to the Forest side and her etheric form had been struck there on en route. That might explain why Jeanne's ghost first appears on the Forest side and isn't supposed to be able to cross over. It's great IDEA! And it's explain many things. And it completely explains why pose of Jeanne's corpse looks so pacified/quiet.
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Post by fuzzyone on Aug 30, 2010 22:10:26 GMT
Also: In the cover page to Coyote Stories, there is a white arrow in the middle of the water, a short distance from the white eye above 'Annie's' head.
My Theory: I also think the target was the waters... And whatever it was they did to the waters (remember, Coyote SAID they did something to the waters) required there to be a living soul down there to bind. It turned Jeanne into an eternal, unsleeping guard, to keep anything from crossing the waters of the Annan. She's bound there, somehow, by that arrow, I imagine.
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lovecraft1024
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Post by lovecraft1024 on Aug 30, 2010 22:33:59 GMT
Also: In the cover page to Coyote Stories, there is a white arrow in the middle of the water, a short distance from the white eye above 'Annie's' head. My Theory: I also think the target was the waters... And whatever it was they did to the waters (remember, Coyote SAID they did something to the waters) required there to be a living soul down there to bind. It turned Jeanne into an eternal, unsleeping guard, to keep anything from crossing the waters of the Annan. She's bound there, somehow, by that arrow, I imagine. Wow, great observation! I don't remember looking at that page too closely. Looking at it again, I see a gear-like thing on the forest side, and a lens-shaped thing above a human form with Antimony's symbol on it. The lens must be Jeanne, but what is the gear? Hmmm....
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Aug 30, 2010 23:48:07 GMT
The lens must be Jeanne, but what is the gear? Hmmm.... Tom confirmed a while back that the lens/eyeball halo thinger is indeed Jeanne. The gears may just be a symbol of the Court's nature. We did speculate a while back that Diego may have built an etheric machine similar to Anja's and hidden it somewhere. However, since Tom Formspringed that it's mainly Jeanne's ghost attacking stuff that tries to cross and not a Donlan-style barrier like we pondered at one time I don't see any need for a big hidden machine with a permanent ghostly operator anymore. The hostile ghost and magic arrow should be enough to explain everything.
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Post by Ulysses on Aug 30, 2010 23:57:36 GMT
Isn't the gear in Coyote Stories the dead TicToc?
If Steadman was shooting the arrow at the river instead of Jeanne then his last exchange with Young takes on a new meaning - Young asks "Did you hit the target?" in nervousness of the situation despite being the Big Man In Charge, and Steadman replies "Of course", meaning "It's a whacking great river, how could I miss?".
I seriously doubt that's what the conversation means though, and that the arrow was meant for the river. I'm pretty certain it was Jeanne that was shot, although that still begs the question of where the arrow went to. It's possible whoever arranged her body like that removed it and destroyed/hid it somewhere.
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Post by Mezzaphor on Aug 31, 2010 0:09:22 GMT
I always assumed that the gear on that cover picture represented the dead Tictoc on the Forest shore. Speaking of which, where's the scabbard? If she didn't take one with her that means she wasn't planning on being down there very long (walking over uneven ground with a bare blade is hazardous). Leather scabbard, perhaps? Ysengrin was probably there to investigate two things: Whether Annie died when she fell (by the way, was her assassination the point of possessed Robot coming back over?) Reynardine believed that Coyote had sent Robot, specifically to kidnap him. And Red said that Ysengrin came down to examine the Tictoc. That might explain why Jeanne's ghost first appears on the Forest side and isn't supposed to be able to cross over. What do you mean, first appears on the forest side?
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Chrome
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Post by Chrome on Aug 31, 2010 0:41:34 GMT
Judging from that opening picture to Coyote Stories, the arrow's shown lying in the water.
What if the target were the Annan Waters? It simply had to be buried deep enough for whatever it did to mess with the ether in the water. Remember, Jones said ether is in the water, which is why the rain soothes Ziimmy.
It'd make sense then, that if the Court wanted to deepen the divide between themselves and the Wood, all they had to do was muck with the ether in the Annan Waters. Which fits with Young's phrase "We must fortify the waters against the wood" (I'm paraphrasing, not exactly perfect recall here).
I think what they did was tied Jeanne's spirit to the waters, as others said, but also did it by tying her etherically to the waters themselves. A literal etheric moat, fortified by the presence of an unnaturally preserved body by the shores - something the "natural" creatures of the Wood would find abhorrent, and possibly too uncomfortable psychically to get past.
But I think what ultimately happened didn't quite happen on the Court's terms. It's possible Jeanne's influence is too strong - remember Coyote mentions the Court were the ones to demand the bridge made to the Wood, because there were humans who wanted to give up their humanity and become Forest creatures. For some reason it's implied that those people also couldn't cross the Waters themselves either, or they wouldn't have needed the bridge. That suggests whatever happened with Jeanne down there had an unforseen side effect.
So it's entirely possible things aren't as straightforward as we think (ie.the arrow, the "desired" effect). What if Diego and Young failed to account for something, and the end result, while satisfying to them, ultimately backfired in the long run?
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Aug 31, 2010 2:50:51 GMT
I always assumed that the gear on that cover picture represented the dead Tictoc on the Forest shore. Maybe but it here it appears up on the Court side, not down in the gorge. No metal fittings then. Also it begs the question why the leather of the scabbard disintegrated but the cloth is fine. I wonder if maybe she had a problem with leather. That might explain the no shoes. Sympathy with animals maybe? Whoops I had that backward. On double-checking she appeared on the Court side the first time, then crossed over to the Forest side. Confirmed in Formspring here. My bad. While I was rereading the comic I did notice how similar Antimony's pose while napping was to how Jeanne's bones are positioned. Think that might have confused Jeanne so she didn't attack until Antimony started moving?
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Post by Rafita on Aug 31, 2010 5:22:04 GMT
Possibility the first: It does look a lot like a signal arrow's point. The curvy bit of a signal arrow isn't actually a weapon, it's a bit of wood or metal designed to make a loud whistle/screech when shot; the flow of air makes the wood vibrate like the reed in a wind instrument. Since we didn't hear anything it's obviously not a simple signal arrow (and there's also the glowy bit and the funny thick shaft) so possibly the style is a nod to convention in Diego's design, or perhaps it's like an antenna. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the arrow did something etheric other than vibrate to make a signal. For example maybe it made a big green glowy sign after being fired. Below the edge of the cliff people on the Court side wouldn't be able to see it but the Forest side would. That might work well with the notion that whoever Jeanne is waiting for would need to know she was there, and how Young wouldn't want anyone not involved with the plan on the Court side to notice. Why the flow of air? The Japanese signal arrows were also to serve as a ward against evil spirits. We know the barrier here is permanent, we don't hear the arrow when it's travelling through air and we've seen it depicted in the middle of the river (which would be able to 'fuel' the arrow forever).
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Chrome
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Post by Chrome on Aug 31, 2010 17:42:32 GMT
That ward against evil spirits bit is interesting - suggests some of the purpose might've been to fortify the waters to ward against the creatures of the Wood. Add in tying a restless spirit to the shores and the waters, and you've got a pretty nice etheric moat there. And it'd be all powered by the ether in the Waters.
I think when Jeanne crossed the Waters to get at Annie the first time, there's a good possibility the stone combined with Annie's own abilities were also somehow boosted by the local ether (would also explain Annie and Zimmy's mind switch near the power station when you think about it), and they brought Jeanne towards her, because Jeanne herself probably saw Annie's energy as the closest thing to an "out" from where she was trapped.
Either way, I don't think Jeanne was the target given what's implied by various clues here. I think the Court meant to alter the etheric effect of the Annan Waters to make them unpassable to the Wood creatures. That entire part above about "warding evil spirits" really would fit, which is why I grabbed onto it.
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