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Post by djublonskopf on Jun 23, 2010 16:07:22 GMT
So . . . Jones said she was interested in seeing what Annie did next. It doesn't seem like Annie did much of anything at all . . ..
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Post by Rex on Jun 23, 2010 16:29:24 GMT
So did Jack accomplish his goal? Can he still accomplish it? It looks like the 8th memory-Jack was gopped, but by whom? Hopefully spider-Jack didn't absorb it though it certainly looks as if he did. But then Zimmy wouldn't be smiling, right? Or would she? What if Zimmy wanted spider-Jack to find the last memory-Jack so the spider would leave Zimmingham? I mean, I don't doubt that the Court wouldn't want a powerful malevolent force like the spider running about, but why would Zimmy care as long as the spider otherwise left her alone? - Did Spider Jack accomplish his goal? No. It rained before he could assimilate/do whatever to to Memory Jack #8. This brought Zimmy out of Zimmingham. - Was 8th Memory Jack gopped? No. He simply acted like the rest of that world the moment Spider Jack lunged at him in a mad grab and vanished. Honestly, I haven't the foggiest idea why Zimmy is smiling at Jack while ignoring the other two. Like I said earlier, maybe we'll see an uncharacteristic move from her in this state.
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lovecraft1024
Full Member
What does anything mean? Basically
Posts: 118
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Post by lovecraft1024 on Jun 23, 2010 16:31:15 GMT
So did Jack accomplish his goal? Can he still accomplish it? It looks like the 8th memory-Jack was gopped, but by whom? Hopefully spider-Jack didn't absorb it though it certainly looks as if he did. But then Zimmy wouldn't be smiling, right? Or would she? What if Zimmy wanted spider-Jack to find the last memory-Jack so the spider would leave Zimmingham? I mean, I don't doubt that the Court wouldn't want a powerful malevolent force like the spider running about, but why would Zimmy care as long as the spider otherwise left her alone? I think the 8th memory Jack dissolved in the rain, whcih could be considered "gopping". But my main reason for replying is that I think we still don't really know what Jack's goal was. Was it to trap Zimmy? Perhaps not - he didn't seem too concerned with her - either in the form of Annie or as Annie in the form of Zimmy. Was it to get all 8 Jacks? I think so, but to what end? And would that be a good end - that is, would it heal Jack? Or would it instead give him +8 spider power? And yeah, there are still a whole host of questions as to Zimmy's motivations, or even if there were motivations. I mean, it could be just that all this happened to her without her control and she was just along for the ride. This line of thought made me remember that really funny movie "Being John Malkovich". Definitely worth watching if you haven't seen it!
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Post by atteSmythe on Jun 23, 2010 16:37:48 GMT
So . . . Jones said she was interested in seeing what Annie did next. It doesn't seem like Annie did much of anything at all . . .. She investigated and acclimated to Birminghell (a phenomenon the Court is studying), located a memory of the uncorrupted Jack Hyland before Jack himself could find it, discovered the location of the lair of an aetheric entity intent on manipulating the physical realm, and protected Gamma while Zimmy was unable to. She discovered the mechanism, if not the motivation or goal, of the Spider's plan, as well as information suggesting that Jack's been back to Birminghell more frequently than we'd known about. And she stayed safe in the process. Not too shabby.
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Post by Rex on Jun 23, 2010 16:47:50 GMT
I doubt it'd be anything remotely good if Spider Jack managed to get that last Memory Jack. It's not surprising that the number of completion for him is 8, but I have no doubt in my mind that the spider getting what he wants is bad news bears.
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lovecraft1024
Full Member
What does anything mean? Basically
Posts: 118
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Post by lovecraft1024 on Jun 23, 2010 17:13:44 GMT
So . . . Jones said she was interested in seeing what Annie did next. It doesn't seem like Annie did much of anything at all . . .. She investigated and acclimated to Birminghell (a phenomenon the Court is studying), located a memory of the uncorrupted Jack Hyland before Jack himself could find it, discovered the location of the lair of an aetheric entity intent on manipulating the physical realm, and protected Gamma while Zimmy was unable to. She discovered the mechanism, if not the motivation or goal, of the Spider's plan, as well as information suggesting that Jack's been back to Birminghell more frequently than we'd known about. And she stayed safe in the process. Not too shabby. Yeah, I was wondering the same thing as djublonskopf. I agree with the positives you mentioned, but perhaps here's another one: she kept Zimmy from getting caught by Jack? I mean if Annie grabbing Gamma's arm set Zimmy off like it did, perhaps that kept Zimmy from getting too close to Jack. Question is whether Annie knew that would happen. And also whether Jack was still trying to get Zimmy. But tell me: what leads you to say that Jack's been to Birminghell more than this time and during the power plant episode?
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Post by Snes on Jun 23, 2010 17:41:23 GMT
I think the reason I didn't want the theory to be true was that people had already guessed it. I like it so much better when we're all thrown for a loop together.
Still, when you're given weeks to wrack your brain about every little detail, I guess it's much more likely someone will notice the early tells. If I had just started reading this comic and I read this chapter all at once, I'm sure I'd be surprised at this development.
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Post by violet on Jun 23, 2010 18:14:52 GMT
I wonder if Zimmy's going to pluck that spider off Jack's head and chase it off. Annie did do something—she lent Zimmy her self for a while, and gamely took on hers. That's got to count for something. Aside: I wish I hadn't let Annie-as-Zimmy's speech patterns confuzzle me, and had thought about it a bit more—of course that was Annie. That's the whole bleeding point innit?
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Post by Per on Jun 23, 2010 18:37:27 GMT
I wonder if Zimmy's going to pluck that spider off Jack's head and chase it off. Zimmy always has a snack after being rained on. There's plenty of spider right there!
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Post by atteSmythe on Jun 23, 2010 18:51:43 GMT
But tell me: what leads you to say that Jack's been to Birminghell more than this time and during the power plant episode? It's a guess based on the 7 other captured Jacks...though I suppose it's possible that just one fragment got away the first time, it seemed to me that the implication was that SpiderJack had been busy.
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Post by foresterr on Jun 23, 2010 19:01:22 GMT
I love this page. I don't know why, but, even though objectively it hardly explains anything (we see reality as it is, but that still leaves most of the whys and hows intact), to me it fells so packed with narrative closure it feels like a gut punch. Maybe it's the rain. Maybe the illusions washing away, mad Jack's desperate lunge, and memory Jack disappearing in a wisp of smoke. Maybe it's Zimmy's smile. Seeing Zimmy's true face like that is always something very special. And it's not even end of a chapter! OK, enough with the gushy ravings! ;D My REAL awesome theory is that the magic power station processed rain caused Annie and Zimmy to switch places. Hilarity will ensue. OK, maybe not. My other theory, which is even super awesome, is that Kat is going to construct a MiniPowerStationPoweredEtherShower for Zimmy ;-) (I actually think it was "fake" rain - but the station didn't suck whatever it sucks out from it. There was the collection stage, but no transmission stage - and whatever the station collected, dissipated with the rain, making it "real" for all intents and purposes)
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Post by the bandit on Jun 23, 2010 19:22:29 GMT
So, the illusion has washed away, and yet we still have no more information than a week ago. in any case, "wacko" should be reserved for the people wearing tinfoil hats, and that definitely does NOT apply to anybody here. I'm not so sure. At the very least, there's me, and one or two others spring to mind. Welcome, all, to the reason why I think virtual "cookies" for guessing crap right is such a terrible, terrible idea. Trying to domineer something, or be competitive in a non-competitive activity (like, say, reading an internet comic) sucks all the joy out of it. Just leave off already. I'll take it a step further: this is why I express despisement of speculation. People naturally factionalize, it's how we're wired. Breaking up into factions over mysteries that will eventually be solved seems silly, but it's inevitable if you insist on coming up with the wrapped-up-with-a-bow-on-it explanation of a mystery you've only known for a day. Either your speculation turns out to be right or turns out to be wrong, but in both cases you often forget to simply enjoy the ride. Sure, you can recognize the mysteries and have an inkling of where you think they're headed, that's part of the thrill of the ride, but don't miss the ride because you're too busy drawing your own conclusions. The conclusion will come in its due time. C'mon! Why so many long faces in here today? This foray into Zimmingham was a trip! Zimmy-pretending-to-be-Annie seeing Annie-pretending-to-be-Zimmy clutching at Gamma. You said this and then like three other people parroted it, some even giving Annie intentionality of grabbing onto Gamma. But this is the opposite of what happened.
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Post by Gemini Jim on Jun 23, 2010 20:05:35 GMT
Tea-San has always been a bit mysterious with us. If he hadn't been, it wouldn't be Gunnerkrigg Court. It would be some ridiculously straight-forward and utterly boring Web comic where we would know everything, from where Annie's father has been to what Jones is.
This particular comic (which isn't over yet) has been, IMHO, much more mysterious than average. And mystery naturally, and inevitably tends to lead to speculation.
I don't have a problem with speculation, because I think that is a natural part of the Gunnerkrigg reading experience (Jones' a robot! No, she's a golem! A terminator! A cyborg! A superpowered human! An alien!).
The problem is when people take theories too seriously, or too personally or get too smug about it. Nobody here is Sherlock Holmes, and acting like it does rub people the wrong way. A few posts back, I was definately rubbed the wrong way, and the trouble with that is that it tends to escalate. If my getting rubbed the wrong way rubbed anybody else the wrong way, I apologize.
But the overall discussion has been great, and I think as long as we all play nice and if we remember who's really in charge around here (hint: it's not the reader), there shouldn't be a problem with people coming up with wild theories.
The only person around here who deserves cookies is Tea-San. Tea and biscuits.
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Post by Zayzie on Jun 23, 2010 20:17:02 GMT
I think the most frustrating part about this was how people ignored other evidence in order to make their theories true. Like when people said Zimmy was Zimmy, despite the fact that Zimmy could not gop people. Now if a theory were to explain away Jack's mentioning of this, then I think it would've been less frustrating, but no such theory was usually given, and (like gemini mentioned) people just took things too personally.
I also think skimming over posts, and or skimming over comic pages, have drawn some off conclusions. If you want to make something sure, double-check, like the Anni-clutching-Gamma theory, it would've taken-what? four clicks to make sure that theory was true?
I think that people let confusion get the best of them while attempting to unravel this mystery, and started to make theories out of context of what was going on, rather than looking back at everything as a whole and asking, Does this fit into the story, considering all of the following evidence? That's why when this story arc started I decided to go have a look at the forums, just to see if anyone could explain things away. I actually wanted to see what Gamma was telling Zimmy-as-Annie on the 3rd page after she ran onto to the roof, but saw a bunch of theories. But I hopped on with the, it's an illusion and it they're switched, because it fit with all the evidence being presented, and even moreso as the story wore on.
I understand people who want to enjoy the ride, but another fun part of enjoying a story is drawing your own conclusions, and then taking a double take when something throws that conclusion out the window. The Murder of Roger Ackroyd is a great example. The narrator draws so many conclusions for you, but in the process, you ignore the narrator, only to find that at the end, he is the murderer and you may have or may have not been ignoring him.
Was whackos meant to be demeaning? No I think it was a lighthearted nudge, and should not have been taken personally, and the cookie remark was meant to lighten up the mood, and say, "nice job guys." I don't think anyone is trying to tell everyone else I toldja so. I just think people are just frustrated with how much people wanted to discredit their identity crisis theory despite the overwhelming evidence of said theories, if not just to provide more theories that ignored the evidence appearing.
Is anyone to be blamed? No. It's the internet, you can't hear what people are saying, you don't know what they truly mean, so stop trying to put a meaning behind something they said where a meaning may or may not be implied. These are debates and discussion, and as an unspoken rule, I think we should all be courteous and assume there is no malicious intent unless otherwise stated. Recently someone mentioned to me, "The internet is all about communication, yet so much is lost in translation."
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Post by cortin on Jun 23, 2010 20:33:06 GMT
I'm interested in finding out what Annie-as-Zimmy was up to. We found her talking to not crazy Jack. Did something important happen there?
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Post by mithrandir on Jun 23, 2010 21:00:24 GMT
(Long time reader -- First time forumer) Alright. So, on Page 729, the panels are all crooked. Then they become straight once more. Any speculations? The panels started going crooked again in strip 735when they entered the spider's lair, and straightened out again in today's strip when the rain brought everyone out. So the crooked panels seem to indicate reality warping. Annie transitioned from conventional reality to altered reality in 729, which meant that her local reality warped, then stabilized into the alternate reality. The spider's lair, on the other hand, is continuously warped reality.
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Post by Dvandaemon on Jun 23, 2010 21:02:12 GMT
Could be that operational parameters of power station changed on Ms. Jones' orders to reverse extraction process. Ether component reintroduced into airborne vapour creating condensate that falls like normal rain. Should help stabilize abilities of subject Zeta. Results promising. Well said. Frankly, I just love eeing Zimmy like this and I want that as my new avatar
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Post by Casey on Jun 23, 2010 21:26:53 GMT
(Long time reader -- First time forumer) Alright. So, on Page 729, the panels are all crooked. Then they become straight once more. Any speculations? The panels started going crooked again in strip 735when they entered the spider's lair, and straightened out again in today's strip when the rain brought everyone out. So the crooked panels seem to indicate reality warping. Annie transitioned from conventional reality to altered reality in 729, which meant that her local reality warped, then stabilized into the alternate reality. The spider's lair, on the other hand, is continuously warped reality. Tom has used asymmetrical panels throughout the comic, to indicate action, or to draw the reader's eyes, to denote emotion, or bending of reality, and so forth. It's a great effect, and definitely a good use of it here. I recommend Ch. 10 (Dr. Disaster) as another example of this that comes immediately to mind, although you'll find examples throughout the comic. It's definitely a cool touch. If my memory serves me, I think once or twice he's even penetrated the outside edges of the comic (though I cannot remember where now off the top of my head).
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Post by dawngazer on Jun 23, 2010 21:52:50 GMT
I think that's the best smile I've ever seen on Zimmy. Hell maybe the ONLY smile.
Makes you wonder. Is she REALLY smiling because all went well with the downpour, or is it because she spotted a dog to garrote? We'll have to wait for the next comic and find out!
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Post by wanderer on Jun 23, 2010 22:07:31 GMT
I think that's the best smile I've ever seen on Zimmy. Hell maybe the ONLY smile. She has smiled before, under the same basic circumstances.I hope one benefit of the rain will be to allow her to get rid of the spider. Hopefully for good. People really shouldn't be getting upset over differences in speculation. This comic is BUILT for speculation: there's just so much to it, both overt and hidden. It doesn't seem right especially for people here to start making it personal.
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Post by dawngazer on Jun 23, 2010 22:10:14 GMT
Oh right. It's been a while.
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Post by Afalstein on Jun 23, 2010 22:17:34 GMT
Okay, I need to say this... I was wrong. Completely wrong. Annie WAS Zimmy and vice-versa.
In my defense, it was totally OOC of Zimmy to try to help Jack, just as it is OOC for her to be smiling right now. Perhaps when she thinks she's someone else, she takes on their traits? Or did she feel sorry for Jack's state after all?
Oh, and how is the rain working now? I thought the rain here didn't affect Zimmy like normal rain. It seems a little too convenient for their to have been a natural storm at the same time as the activated powerstation.
By the way, from the looks of things, the water was dissolving that spider on Jack's head. That should make him feel better... for a while, anyway.
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Post by todd on Jun 23, 2010 22:24:11 GMT
So . . . Jones said she was interested in seeing what Annie did next. It doesn't seem like Annie did much of anything at all . . .. That was the main reason why I found it difficult to believe the "Annie is really Zimmy" for so long; Jones' remark (and actions accompanying it) seemed to be building up to Annie facing a major trial. Maybe the point *was* that Annie did very little - and that it was Zimmy who did all the conventional "action hero" behavior that we'd have expected (constantly searching for Jack, chasing him, shouting to the memory of Jack, "Don't listen to him!", etc.), which accomplished almost nothing. Annie learning to take the more subtle approach (protecting Gamma - and maybe her standing next to Gamma and thereby arousing Zimmy's jealousy was important - Zimmy's fit of jealous rage just *might* have helped the rain break through and dissolve the illusion before Jack could assimilate the memory), just as Jones has done (look at how she handled Parley and Smith in Chapter Twenty-three).
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Post by Ignotus Somnium on Jun 23, 2010 22:37:11 GMT
Oh, Zimmy, you so fine You so fine you blow my mind~
And apparently everyone else's, too. I love the melting-illusion frames here. Really cool way to transition.
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Post by legion on Jun 23, 2010 22:39:26 GMT
Guys, I would like to point out that in pannel 5, the Power Station is off and the lake is full, which seems to imply this is real rain, not Power Station rain.
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Post by wanderer on Jun 23, 2010 22:45:46 GMT
Guys, I would like to point out that in pannel 5, the Power Station is off and the lake is full, which seems to imply this is real rain, not Power Station rain. Whatever has happened, the situation is more complicated than it might initially seem. ...And that should probably win an award for most obvious statement of the week, or something. ;D
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Post by Mezzaphor on Jun 23, 2010 22:52:00 GMT
Could be that operational parameters of power station changed on Ms. Jones' orders to reverse extraction process. Ether component reintroduced into airborne vapour creating condensate that falls like normal rain. Should help stabilize abilities of subject Zeta. Results promising. Well said. Frankly, I just love eeing Zimmy like this and I want that as my new avatar Knock yourself out. I'll be using one of them on another forum.
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Post by Ulysses on Jun 23, 2010 23:11:32 GMT
All of Jack's webbing has been washed away. Has the spider gone too, or is it clinging on, too tiny to be seen in panel 5? I wonder of Zimmy has a spider too, or if the spider was just from her illusions?
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Post by ih8pkmn on Jun 23, 2010 23:48:12 GMT
Wow, a straight-up answer to who was who and who wasn't real? Now that's a surprise. Now if only we knew how the pink-haired girl on page 730 knew that Jack was looking for Zimmy. Maybe the ether is like a collective consciousness. Maybe it can transfer memories,thoughts,and feelings from one person to another. Although, If Annie was chasing after Zimmy when she entered Birminghell, then where was she afterwords? The next time we see her is talking with Jack near the Iron Leaning. Also, this is bizarre: 735Since when does Annie use language like that? I don't think we've even heard her say "Darn!"
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Post by Rex on Jun 23, 2010 23:54:52 GMT
All of Jack's webbing has been washed away. Has the spider gone too, or is it clinging on, too tiny to be seen in panel 5? I wonder of Zimmy has a spider too, or if the spider was just from her illusions? We'll find that out on Friday since the scene pulled away from him pretty quickly after the lunge. My guess is that the spider is still with him and Zimmy will do something to it.
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