Rymdljus
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Beautiful songbird
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Post by Rymdljus on Nov 16, 2012 13:47:05 GMT
Looking back on past chapters-- I've noticed that Coyote can affect Jones. He stopped time, which also stopped her. Hmmm distressing for the whole Jones vs Coyote debate. This fact alone makes Coyote infinitely more powerful than Jones. Or, maybe not "infinitely", but I mean... stopping time!Jones could stand still forever. Coyote could make everybody stand still forever. 1-0 to Coyote. And for that matter: Jones can bathe in lava while looking bored. Coyote can bathe in lava while looking amused. 2-0 to Coyote.
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Post by rainofsteel on Nov 16, 2012 14:26:54 GMT
Think Coyote's tooth could cut her? No. It's part and parcel of her telling Coyote she could take Annie away from him if she wanted. ------------------ This whole chapter has been a stunner. As was mentioned in an earlier topic, while we do get some answers, they don't actually tell us the whole story nor reveal to us the final why or wherefore. Well played, Tom. I think it's interesting that she mentions her hair. I had specifically noticed that her hair style hadn't changed, and was thinking she definitely wasn't emotionally normal, as I know of no woman who could go that long without changing her hair around. (Yes, that's a total stereotype, but I was thinking it anyway.) Interesting. An emotional girl who puts on a stoic mask talks to a stoic girl who puts on an emotional mask That's pretty good! However, Annie has not been nearly so reserved since her return from her summer excursion. She doesn't yet wear her life on her sleeve, but she isn't the same girl from chapter one.
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Post by chendzeea on Nov 16, 2012 14:41:28 GMT
Rethinking my earlier comment about Coyote stopping time. It's possible, more likely in retrospect, that his affect was on Annie in particular. Who knows if he could do that to just anyone.
He yanked her out of the time stream a moment if you will.
Example, could have had Annie in that void for years and then return her back in an instant. To any one one on the outside they'd not have left.
Since Jones' senses are normal, she wouldn't have noticed.
This lets him do insane things like that, but still keep in line of other major players without directly altering them. Otherwise, you start asking, if he actually stopped time.... then what can you do.
But then you have to ask, could he yank Jones into a time bubble like that. Which is easier to question. Than a outright TIME STOP effect.
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Rymdljus
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Post by Rymdljus on Nov 16, 2012 14:52:40 GMT
Rethinking my earlier comment about Coyote stopping time. It's possible, more likely in retrospect, that his affect was on Annie in particular. Who knows if he could do that to just anyone. He yanked her out of the time stream a moment if you will. Example, could have had Annie in that void for years and then return her back in an instant. To any one one on the outside they'd not have left. Since Jones' senses are normal, she wouldn't have noticed. This lets him do insane things like that, but still keep in line of other major players without directly altering them. Otherwise, you start asking, if he actually stopped time.... then what can you do. But then you have to ask, could he yank Jones into a time bubble like that. Which is easier to question. Than a outright TIME STOP effect. It doesn't make any difference if he yanked Annie out of the flow of time, or made time itself stop flowing though the universe. If I'm not entirely missing something, it's the exact same thing. If the "spell" was cast on Annie or the universe doesn't matter. For there to be any effect, there need to be someone who still experience time flowing, while others do not. If you stopped time for everyone, no one would notice it. I wonder, though, if he could do the opposite; stop time for just one person? Like Jones for example.
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Post by zimmyzims on Nov 16, 2012 15:18:24 GMT
Rethinking my earlier comment about Coyote stopping time. It's possible, more likely in retrospect, that his affect was on Annie in particular. Who knows if he could do that to just anyone. He yanked her out of the time stream a moment if you will. Example, could have had Annie in that void for years and then return her back in an instant. To any one one on the outside they'd not have left. Since Jones' senses are normal, she wouldn't have noticed. This lets him do insane things like that, but still keep in line of other major players without directly altering them. Otherwise, you start asking, if he actually stopped time.... then what can you do. But then you have to ask, could he yank Jones into a time bubble like that. Which is easier to question. Than a outright TIME STOP effect. It doesn't make any difference if he yanked Annie out of the flow of time, or made time itself stop flowing though the universe. If I'm not entirely missing something, it's the exact same thing. If the "spell" was cast on Annie or the universe doesn't matter. For there to be any effect, there need to be someone who still experience time flowing, while others do not. If you stopped time for everyone, no one would notice it. I wonder, though, if he could do the opposite; stop time for just one person? Like Jones. But it precisely is not the same thing. If he stops time, as generally, that is an immense power that effects everybody and thing in the world. It would have been that everything in the world aside from himself and Annie was stopped. Now, if he just takes Annie out of that timeline, then it only affects Annie, he could not, for example, keep whole world still forever, all he could do is to make it seem like that to one person. It would make it something that happened only between them two, while stopping the time would have made it happening for everybody, but only them two noticing it. And there's a difference here, be it little apparent from psychological point of view. In fact, that's precisely that he "stopped the time for one person", Annie. To her, time seemed stopped at that point. She moved, but there were no influences except between her and Coyote. Now, if the time of the world actually was not stopped, then to everybody else time kept flying.
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Rymdljus
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Post by Rymdljus on Nov 16, 2012 15:55:24 GMT
But it precisely is not the same thing. If he stops time, as generally, that is an immense power that effects everybody and thing in the world. It would have been that everything in the world aside from himself and Annie was stopped. Now, if he just takes Annie out of that timeline, then it only affects Annie, he could not, for example, keep whole world still forever, all he could do is to make it seem like that to one person. It would make it something that happened only between them two, while stopping the time would have made it happening for everybody, but only them two noticing it. And there's a difference here, be it little apparent from psychological point of view. In fact, that's precisely that he "stopped the time for one person", Annie. To her, time seemed stopped at that point. She moved, but there were no influences except between her and Coyote. Now, if the time of the world actually was not stopped, then to everybody else time kept flying. I still say it's the same thing. If you stop time, the only one who is going to experience it is the one(s) for whom time continues to flow. You could stop the universe dead in it's tracks, but the moment you start it again, you will effectively have done nothing for everyone and everything that was stopped. To stop time for everyone, the one stopping it would be the only one to notice. You can't stop time forever, since the concept of forever requires time. I'm getting dizzy here. But oh dear, I realize now that my thoughts kind of went astray there for a moment regarding the last bit, about making time stop for just one person. That was very silly of me. ;D
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ryos
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Post by ryos on Nov 16, 2012 16:02:34 GMT
She hasn't been tested with a direct, point blank, nuclear explosion yet though... Says you. I'm thinking she could survive one. She'd be thrown rapidly by the blast wave and may never be directly exposed to the very high temperatures that are briefly present in the heart of the explosion.
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Post by quanticle on Nov 16, 2012 16:22:39 GMT
She hasn't been tested with a direct, point blank, nuclear explosion yet though... Says you. I'm thinking she could survive one. She'd be thrown rapidly by the blast wave and may never be directly exposed to the very high temperatures that are briefly present in the heart of the explosion. I don't think she'd be thrown very far by the blast wave. Jones is heavy, after all.
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Post by quanticle on Nov 16, 2012 16:26:52 GMT
Is Jones a P-Zombie? Even if she doesn't meet the strict definition of having no qualia, I would say that her inability to feel emotion or imagination certainly limits the level of consciousness she can achieve. Maybe she's a P-Zombie that can introspect?
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Post by exdevlin on Nov 16, 2012 16:33:08 GMT
I really want Jones to sound like she resents her ability to have that human capability to feel emotions and have real connections with others, but I know she's just stating everything about herself in a very matter of fact way.
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Post by smjjames on Nov 16, 2012 16:56:53 GMT
When I read the bit about emotional detachment, I thought she sounded like a vulcan there. Also, she'd have to be at least a little bit creative since she can certainly plan to an extent. She doesn't need to be artistically creative though. The bit about 'recording' every moment with perfect clarity makes her sound like some kind of recording device, or if you want to get metaphorical, she is like an eye, which in itself is like a camera 'recording' everything it sees (although not always with perfect clarity. Anyways, like the others said, I also think Tom needs to explain how she looks human LONG before life even started. exdevlin: Sounds kind of like Spock.
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Post by TBeholder on Nov 16, 2012 17:06:43 GMT
As was already said, her human shape (with human movement limitations?) probably was just Annie's imagination of her story. She may be capable of mimicry not only in behaviour. Or just reflecting her environment.
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qiam
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Post by qiam on Nov 16, 2012 17:25:17 GMT
I think a good question is, do we think Jones can feel emotions? Or are we simply projecting our own emotions on to her when we think she feels them?
Where do you draw the line between mimicry of emotion and genuine emotion?
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Post by hifranc on Nov 16, 2012 17:50:30 GMT
[...] 2) Jones is like super-autistic. The term you're looking for is psychopath. From what I can recall of a documentary on criminals a few years ago: Psychopath: No emotions, the decision of whether to kill or not is much like a decision of which pair of socks to wear and made solely on perceived cost-benefit analysis. They only mimic other people's emotions (e.g. "that sounds like a joke, I'd better laugh"). An autistic person still has emotions. Their problems of perception are that they are not good at picking up social clues. * * * Q: If she is so emotionless, why become Eaglemore's lover? If she truly was emotionless what is the "benefit" side of the relationship to her given the amount of effort people have to put in to maintaining a relationship?
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Post by hargharg on Nov 16, 2012 18:26:00 GMT
Think Coyote's tooth could cut her? Good question! But I doubt it, due to her saying, " You know I can take her if I wish." Now, we have some idea of what she actually meant. I always thought that statement was about politics and not powerlevels.
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hajo
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Post by hajo on Nov 16, 2012 19:08:10 GMT
I've noticed that Coyote can affect Jones. He stopped time, which also stopped her. Maybe Coyote just accelerated himself and Annie ? He just needed a bit of extra time to give Annie the bind... Also, Jones could be making diamonds in her spare time
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Post by Lightice on Nov 16, 2012 20:15:31 GMT
Psychopath: No emotions, the decision of whether to kill or not is much like a decision of which pair of socks to wear and made solely on perceived cost-benefit analysis. They only mimic other people's emotions (e.g. "that sounds like a joke, I'd better laugh"). Psychopaths have emotions. What they don't have is the ability to relate to others. Psychopaths can feel fear, pain, sadness and so on just as easily as anyone else, they just can't connect the dots when it comes to others experiencing these emotions, which makes them very self-centered. But most psychopaths are not murderers or even criminals because it's a long way between self-centered and outright crazy. Incidentally, people have been commenting of Jones being Caucasian, but I have to wonder. Her hair is blonde, true, but she has dusky skin and almond-shaped eyes. I wonder if her ethnicity actually perfectly matches anything found in real life.
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Post by jasmijn on Nov 16, 2012 20:43:54 GMT
[...] 2) Jones is like super-autistic. The term you're looking for is psychopath. From what I can recall of a documentary on criminals a few years ago: Psychopath: No emotions, the decision of whether to kill or not is much like a decision of which pair of socks to wear and made solely on perceived cost-benefit analysis. They only mimic other people's emotions (e.g. "that sounds like a joke, I'd better laugh"). An autistic person still has emotions. Their problems of perception are that they are not good at picking up social clues. Maybe. I was thinking about the whole mimicry thing. I mean, she has had thousands of years to learn to act human, and she still comes across as cold and emotionless. Autistic people can come across as cold and emotionless, because they sometimes forget to show how they feel (I think I still do that sometimes, even though I've learned a lot about showing my internal state). Jones has obviously no trouble picking up social clues, which is why she is "like super autistic" rather than "super autistic". Also, Jones might or might not have emotions (she thinks she doesn't, but Dexter thinks he can't care about people and that's not true either), which makes here distinctly not human (autistic, psychopath, neurotypical or otherwise). I forgot where I was going with this.
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Post by phyzome on Nov 16, 2012 21:05:34 GMT
Her body "cannot bend, or break, or manipulate like wet clay." You really need to re-read that panel. If she can't bend, how does she walk?
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Post by seaofalchemy on Nov 16, 2012 22:01:51 GMT
Her body "cannot bend, or break, or manipulate like wet clay." You really need to re-read that panel. If she can't bend, how does she walk? I re-read the panel. Re-read it yourself. "Except for my own body, there is no material in existence that I cannot bend, or break, or manipulate like wet clay." Let's break this sentence down. Paraphrase 1: There is no material in existence that I cannot bend, or break, or manipulate. Let's get rid of the “no” and “cannot” since those can be canceled out and it would still be an accurate paraphrase. Let's change “cannot” into “can.” Paraphrase 2: There is no material in existence that I can not bend, or break, or manipulate. Paraphrase 2: There is material in existence that can I bend, break, or manipulate. Let's add “except for my own body.” Paraphrase 3: There is material in existence that can I bend, break, or manipulate except for my own body. Paraphrase 4: I can bend, break, or manipulate material in existence except for my own body. So, yes, she can still walk. She even says in the next panel, "My movement and senses fall well within human boundaries..." But I think she was referring to (and I, too, was referring to) her body not being able to be damaged in anyway. It's a mouthful-of-a-sentence. I could still be reading it wrong despite my attempt to understand it by re-wording it. Perhaps someone can better explain what Jones is trying to say.
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Post by 0o0f on Nov 16, 2012 23:01:44 GMT
Interesting. An emotional girl who puts on a stoic mask talks to a stoic girl who puts on an emotional mask I know, right? ;D And now I'm worried something WILL hurt Jones... but at least she won't feel fear, I guess? :/
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Post by aaroncampbell on Nov 16, 2012 23:32:38 GMT
So everyone keeps talking about Jones vs. Coyote. I just thought I'd take a moment to throw another thought into the mix. Zimmy. Imagine the three of them on a long road trip together. Or on second thought, don't. Too much power, not enough sanity.
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varil
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Post by varil on Nov 16, 2012 23:56:03 GMT
Jones seems less like an aspect of earth and more like a being of 'order', as opposed to Coyote, who might represent 'chaos'. Coyote does as he wishes and looks however he likes. Jones has a shape which is absolute and unchanging, and has no wishes in particular, but instead she seems to just go with the path of least resistance, which right now is generally falling into line with humanity and being as close to human as possible.
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Post by blahzor on Nov 17, 2012 1:50:36 GMT
I'm not even wild speculating right now but I'm starting to believe that Kat created Jones in the future
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Post by phyzome on Nov 17, 2012 2:04:19 GMT
So, yes, she can still walk. She even says in the next panel, "My movement and senses fall well within human boundaries..." But I think she was referring to (and I, too, was referring to) her body not being able to be damaged in anyway. It's a mouthful-of-a-sentence. I could still be reading it wrong despite my attempt to understand it by re-wording it. Perhaps someone can better explain what Jones is trying to say. Yeah, you're right -- my apologies. (I also didn't mean it to come across as harshly as it may have.) My understanding of Jones' statement hasn't changed; however, my understanding of your statements has. I misunderstood your conclusion here: "So, I guess she cannot bare children since a fetus needs to grow in her, manipulating her body." I took that to mean you were saying that her body could not alter of its own accord (which I disagree with, since any movement does this) but now I see that you're talking about the stretching that a growing fetus causes: Since the fetus is pretty much a separate organism, it would not be able to induce structural changes in her body.
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Post by rosencrantz on Nov 17, 2012 4:06:17 GMT
Has anyone mentioned that Coyote replaced his tooth with a stone, after he gifted Annie the blade? It would be a sinister fate for Jones
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ryos
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Post by ryos on Nov 17, 2012 4:20:12 GMT
Two thoughts occur to me:
1) Jones is the perfect candidate for manned space exploration. She has no life support needs, could walk on Mars without a space suit, could withstand accelerations that would turn us into jelly. Years alone would not faze her.
2) Jones REALLY needs to start writing. Her first-hand observations of every period of the Earth would be invaluable to historians, archeologists, evolutionary biologists, and various other -ians and -ists. But, well, then again, first they'd have to accept her and what she is, and I think she'd have an uphill battle there.
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Post by Amethyst on Nov 17, 2012 4:55:27 GMT
A gravestone.
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Post by Nnelg on Nov 17, 2012 5:15:40 GMT
She hasn't been tested with a direct, point blank, nuclear explosion yet though, and probably wouldn't want to. Plus she would end up having to be entombed somewhere for a million years or something. You know, I'll bet if Jones took a handful of enriched uranium and squeezed, she'd be able to both compress it past critical mass and contain the resulting reaction. Also, I doubt Jones can become radioactive. That's because this requires external radiation to knock atoms into unstable configurations, and it's pretty clear that Jones' atoms (if she even has those) are immutable. ...Actually, one could say that Jones is an atom, in the original sense.
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Post by smjjames on Nov 17, 2012 5:28:54 GMT
She hasn't been tested with a direct, point blank, nuclear explosion yet though, and probably wouldn't want to. Plus she would end up having to be entombed somewhere for a million years or something. You know, I'll bet if Jones took a handful of enriched uranium and squeezed, she'd be able to both compress it past critical mass and contain the resulting reaction. Also, I doubt Jones can become radioactive. That's because this requires external radiation to knock atoms into unstable configurations, and it's pretty clear that Jones' atoms (if she even has those) are immutable. ...Actually, one could say that Jones is an atom, in the original sense. I was thinking of contamination rather than inducing jones to emit radiation.
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