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Post by hal9000 on May 26, 2010 15:25:23 GMT
It is patently unbelievable that the court (or at least Jones) has no idea about the power station's effects on Zimmy at this very moment.
Jones: "Well, if he believes the ether station drew Zimmy out of hiding once, he has every reason to believe it will happen again." Annie: "Aren't we going to stop him?" Jones:"It will be far more interesting to see what happens if we don't."
Jones KNOWS that the ether station 'drew zimmy out of hiding' once, and knows that it caused some drastically negative interaction between Zimmy and Jack. She seems to have some idea about how Zimmy's problem/powers work.
And, knowing these things, Jones is now ordering the same set of conditions to be recreated, not for any particular good reason other than to observe the outcome.
How is that ethical? I don't think it actually is.
And extrapolating from that, I have to question the court's motives behavior, and intentions here.
Also, to address this point: Zimmy has said in previous strips that the plant had been messing with her head for some time before she actually went to see it, so presumably that will happen again regardless of how far away she is.
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Post by Casey on May 26, 2010 15:43:18 GMT
Jones KNOWS that the ether station 'drew zimmy out of hiding' once, and knows that it caused some drastically negative interaction between Zimmy and Jack. I think if you look at it more closely and with perhaps a slightly more objective eye, you might see that there's no link given between "Jack was affected by his encounter with Zimmy" and the Power Station. Further there's no evidence that they know how or why the Power Station drew Zimmy out... or even that it did. Only that Jack believed that it did, and they therefore know why Jack tried to do it again. It seems you want to make an argument that the Court is being unethical, and to make the argument, you're interpreting and assuming things that lean towards the argument you're trying to support. I'd suggest looking at it again, if you can, and try to see it the other way around if for no other reason than to error-check.
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Post by violet on May 26, 2010 16:22:55 GMT
So, Jack was right all along. Yes, about the food. No, just about the food. (It was less Dark Ominous Reveal and more Heheh Funny Reveal, anyway.) The coldness with which Jones is approaching this situation does make me a bit uneasy, but, well, that's Jones for you. It's not like her strategy is terrible. I can't, off-hand, think of a better. If Zimmy shows up, Jones can control the situation if Jack proves dangerous to her, even if she doesn't intend to interfere initially. And let's face it, Jack is whack-a-loon, but he's probably right that Zimmy is the only person who can fix him, or at least help him understand what's going on. And if Zimmy doesn't show, the station fires, the data collectors collect, and so on. It's not like that wasn't going to happen again at some point, anyway.
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Post by lurker on May 26, 2010 16:34:41 GMT
At least it wasn't the clothes!
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Post by Nicolescrib on May 26, 2010 17:12:10 GMT
The "tracking people in food" thing reminds me of a book I read..."The Supernaturalists", by the guy who wrote the Artemis Fowl books. This kid lives in an orphanage and they track the orphans through particles in the food, I think. Or maybe in the shower water.
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Post by Mr Pitchfork on May 26, 2010 17:52:11 GMT
I would love for Annie to ask that question. Are there any instances of Jones dodging questions? She did dodge once, on the question of her allegiance to the court/forest: here. Didn't she also completely interrupt Annie at one point? (Do my bidding, research monkey!)
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Post by crysiana on May 26, 2010 17:53:29 GMT
2) Just because a crazy character was right about something doesn't make him no longer crazy. Anyone who lures a classmate and her supernatural sidekick out in the middle of the night, tricks the latter into a torture trap, and leaves the former stuck there to take the blame for it, all for the sake of setting a distraction to aid him in obsessively hunting down another classmate, is clearly not operating within the bounds of common and acceptable human behavior. To be entirely fair to Jack (who I agree is crazy, regardless of his being right about the food), he left Annie behind when she refused to go with him. Now, she refused to go with him because he'd hurt her friend and she wanted to save him, but it didn't seem that Jack's initial intent was to leave Annie behind. In regards to the general discussion people are having about the Court, we do know the Court's current ambition. "It is man's endeavor to become god." Of course, that answer is so vague as to be almost completely useless, but it's something. Regarding the ethics of the Court: Bringing Zimmy to the Court for observation is not the nicest thing to do but we don't know what she would have done to herself or the world around her if they hadn't. Gamma was with Zimmy wherever they were, but while the Court can ensure Gamma's relative safety, it's impossible to say what might have happened to her on the outside. However, I disagree that the Court doesn't realize the possible effect of the ether station on Zimmy now. While they didn't know in the past, Annie's conversation with Jones indicates that she's told Jones at least the bare bones of what happened to make Jack believe that Zimmy would come when the station was turned on. This means that the Court is willing to risk either a confrontation between Zimmy and Jack or possibly even a sudden occurrence of !Birmingham just for observation's sake, if Jones is being honest. I admit that it's possible that people are heading over to intercept Jack, so that's pure speculation. However, the Court is fully aware that they might be precipitating a visit to !Birmingham for Zimmy, at least. Which doesn't strike me as particularly ethical, since I can't imagine that they don't know that her "distortions" can be dangerous. I don't know that they realize that the distortions also cause her anguish, so I can't speak to the ethics concerns there, but one would hope that Annie might mention it.
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Post by warrl on May 26, 2010 18:28:07 GMT
However, the Court is fully aware that they might be precipitating a visit to !Birmingham for Zimmy, at least. We don't know that. We know that Jones is NOW aware that the power station affects Zimmy, but we don't know that anyone else in authority knows, or that Jones knew before she got off the boat at the power station. (Please note, I am not asserting that Annie - or Zimmy - did NOT tell her earlier. I'm saying we don't know.) We also know that Jones, or someone in authority such that Jones has access to the work, has studied Zimmy on occasion in the past. Probably repeatedly. But we have no details. If you want to presume that the Court is aware of how the power station affects Zimmy... why not also presume that once they became aware of it (sometime after the incident with Annie and Jack), they gave Zimmy the schedule and advised that during experiments she might want to be in selected areas of the Court that are far from both the lake and the discharge paths. Thus allowing the experiments to continue with minimal disruption to this particularly sensitive individual. That still leaves this unscheduled event... but we don't know how many stages the process goes through before the discharge and the rain - which was apparently what set Zimmy off before. Currently the station is just in, or leading up to, the collection stage. Maybe there's really lots of time to prevent known undesired consequences.
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Post by hal9000 on May 26, 2010 19:08:34 GMT
However, the Court is fully aware that they might be precipitating a visit to !Birmingham for Zimmy, at least. We don't know that. We know that Jones is NOW aware that the power station affects Zimmy, but we don't know that anyone else in authority knows, or that Jones knew before she got off the boat at the power station. (Please note, I am not asserting that Annie - or Zimmy - did NOT tell her earlier. I'm saying we don't know.) We also know that Jones, or someone in authority such that Jones has access to the work, has studied Zimmy on occasion in the past. Probably repeatedly. But we have no details. If you want to presume that the Court is aware of how the power station affects Zimmy... why not also presume that once they became aware of it (sometime after the incident with Annie and Jack), they gave Zimmy the schedule and advised that during experiments she might want to be in selected areas of the Court that are far from both the lake and the discharge paths. Thus allowing the experiments to continue with minimal disruption to this particularly sensitive individual. That still leaves this unscheduled event... but we don't know how many stages the process goes through before the discharge and the rain - which was apparently what set Zimmy off before. Currently the station is just in, or leading up to, the collection stage. Maybe there's really lots of time to prevent known undesired consequences. Well, Jones is the woman in charge of this operation, apparently, and she's probably the second most powerful person of authority we've seen in the comic, with the headmaster being the first. So, if Jones isn't going all rogue agent on everybody, then her will here can safely be assumed to be roughly equivalent to the Court's will and thus the original statement holds.
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Post by violet on May 26, 2010 19:13:18 GMT
Bringing Zimmy to the Court for observation is not the nicest thing to do but we don't know what she would have done to herself or the world around her if they hadn't. Was it involuntary? I didn't get that impression from what Jones said, or from this page. (About which: gold buttons! And is that Shell in the background? Probably not.) It really does look like Zimmy was expecting the rain to do its cool soothing cleansing thing, and it… didn't. As Tom said, she let go too soon.
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Post by crysiana on May 26, 2010 19:15:51 GMT
However, the Court is fully aware that they might be precipitating a visit to !Birmingham for Zimmy, at least. We don't know that. We know that Jones is NOW aware that the power station affects Zimmy, but we don't know that anyone else in authority knows, or that Jones knew before she got off the boat at the power station. (Please note, I am not asserting that Annie - or Zimmy - did NOT tell her earlier. I'm saying we don't know.) We also know that Jones, or someone in authority such that Jones has access to the work, has studied Zimmy on occasion in the past. Probably repeatedly. But we have no details. If you want to presume that the Court is aware of how the power station affects Zimmy... why not also presume that once they became aware of it (sometime after the incident with Annie and Jack), they gave Zimmy the schedule and advised that during experiments she might want to be in selected areas of the Court that are far from both the lake and the discharge paths. Thus allowing the experiments to continue with minimal disruption to this particularly sensitive individual. That still leaves this unscheduled event... but we don't know how many stages the process goes through before the discharge and the rain - which was apparently what set Zimmy off before. Currently the station is just in, or leading up to, the collection stage. Maybe there's really lots of time to prevent known undesired consequences. hal9000 is correct; I was taking Jones as a representative of the Court. However, since we don't know how much, if anything, she tells the Court of various things, you have a point. Jones is in control of this operation though, and I suppose it is therefore her ethics that are in question in continuing the experiment.
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Post by the bandit on May 26, 2010 19:16:04 GMT
It's always a trip to see what creative discussions crop up from a given page. At least it wasn't the clothes! The bonus page for this chapter is the characters giving a PSA regarding anorexia.
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Post by crysiana on May 26, 2010 19:22:45 GMT
Bringing Zimmy to the Court for observation is not the nicest thing to do but we don't know what she would have done to herself or the world around her if they hadn't. Was it involuntary? I didn't get that impression from what Jones said, or from this page. (About which: gold buttons! And is that Shell in the background? Probably not.) It really does look like Zimmy was expecting the rain to do its cool soothing cleansing thing, and it… didn't. As Tom said, she let go too soon. I didn't mean to imply that Zimmy's coming to the Court was involuntary, sorry. I just meant that Court agents went out to find her and persuade her to come. My problem with the experiment is more that Jones at least knows that !Birmingham is a possibility, and considers the potential damage an acceptable risk, since she's going through with it anyway.
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Post by Charlotte on May 26, 2010 20:33:35 GMT
If'n Zimmy draws ether from the air into her mind, and when it builds up to a certain point it overloads and manifests into the real world, and if the power station also sucks ether from the atmosphere, why did Zimmy have a "very big" episode in the situation where the local ether was being depleted by some other ether-filtering entity? Shouldn't drawing ether away from Zimmy relieve her symptoms rather than exacerbate them?
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Post by spacemilk on May 26, 2010 20:39:31 GMT
for quick reference, my post is referring to the discussion around: www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=193Not only did the Court agents come to get her, they apparently pulled her in to Zimmingham when doing so - or at least a different part of Zimmingham, implying they can enter it at will and possibly even influence it. Hence her sitting in front of a bookshelf saying "huh" (and one of the previous flashbacks shows her saying to Gamma "we were almost to the library!") and then suddenly appearing at an alley wall without knowing what's going on. I think Zimmingham is an actual place, that people can access if they want to. I don't know why it's so dark. Maybe this belongs more in the wild speculation thread, but I think it's a place that Zimmy maybe largely created (but it's an ether-place - since she can affect things in the ether, she can perhaps create things there?) and yet it can be touched or accessed by others who are ether-sensitive. However she doesn't have full control of it, as evidenced by the Court agents jerking her around; perhaps if she learned to control her abilities, she would. What's curious to me is that Gamma apparently met Zimmy in Zimmingham. And I am not sure Gamma got pulled in by Zimmy, either; I think she got there on her own, or - more wild speculation - she may be a creation of Zimmy's but Zimmy does not realize this. It is interesting that the Court agents make sure they mention that Gamma will be "safe" there. If you are trying to talk someone in to something, wouldn't you say it was fun, or she would enjoy it? And why does Zimmy have her arm thrown in front of Gamma - has Gamma been attacked before, and why? The most interesting thing for me, though, is that for some reason the time box that was there for the chapter is scrambled for this comic. And the library shelf she's sitting in front of sure looks an awful lot like the shelf she's sitting in front of with Annie, in the previous comics. Yet clearly the events of this comic are long before the encounter with Annie, yet occur after the previous flashbacks. Interesting... Heh, this is probably way too much wild speculation to belong in here.
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Post by spacemilk on May 26, 2010 20:44:18 GMT
If'n Zimmy draws ether from the air into her mind, and when it builds up to a certain point it overloads and manifests into the real world, and if the power station also sucks ether from the atmosphere, why did Zimmy have a "very big" episode in the situation where the local ether was being depleted by some other ether-filtering entity? Shouldn't drawing ether away from Zimmy relieve her symptoms rather than exacerbate them? I don't know that the station necessarily draws ether away from Zimmy. I think the problem in that situation is that Zimmy was expecting it to rain, so she let herself go - she let the ether "bubble up" so the rain could begin to cool it or draw it away. Unfortunately the rain did nothing of the sort. Keep in mind that the power station extracts ether only from evaporated water, it doesn't pull the ether from any other source. So it wouldn't draw any of the ether out from Zimmy. So, when Zimmy had her "unfortunate episode" I would postulate that it had less to do with the power station itself and its process, and more to do with the result of the process, which created rainfall that didn't help Zimmy. However the station may cause more stress on Zimmy, which may cause her to need rainfall (or cooling) more quickly than she normally would, perhaps causing more frequent "episodes."
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Post by the bandit on May 26, 2010 21:02:12 GMT
I think there's some confusion as to the meaning of Jones's explanation. What I have comprehended, from past and recent reveals, is that Zimmingham is a manifestation of Zimmy's mind or memories.
The power station draws etheric energy from the water and then sends it in a concentrated form [i.e., the lightning] down the relay to the next station.
Zimmy sees the etheric about her, and she unconsciously draws etheric energy, but unlike the power station she is unable to easily direct and control the accrued energy. Mild episodes leave her surrounded (internally) by her own hellish, twisted memories of Birmingham. More severe episodes have physical manifestations of her nightmares. EDIT: Id est, by way of Jones's analogy, Zimmingham is the equivalent to the Power Station's lightning, but in an uncontrolled form.
My understanding of page 193 (linked by spacemilk) is that Annie's presence does not dissipate as well as Gamma's, and Zimmy got sucked into an old memory. Note a) that she is already at the Court while having this episode in Zimmingham and b) Zimmy's frantic insistence that what just happened had happened already.
Zimmy is constantly overloading. Spacemilk is right on target with the reason we get a trip to Birminghell in Chapter 19. It's not because the Power Station caused Zimmy to overload; rather, Zimmy stopped holding back Birminghell in her psyche because she had thought the rain would dissipate her "cpu heat," but having been altered by the Power Station, it had no effect (like with a shower), and it was too late to hold it back. I think Zimmy has to walk around 24/7 with the same psychological strain as the physical of a person trying to hold back diarrhea. Or consider her Birminghell manifestations having to constantly be held back in the same manner of Confessors' power in Goodkind's novels. That's why she's so elated from the release she received from the rain in Chapter 11.
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Post by warrl on May 26, 2010 21:36:16 GMT
We don't know that. We know that Jones is NOW aware that the power station affects Zimmy, but we don't know that anyone else in authority knows, or that Jones knew before she got off the boat at the power station. hal9000 is correct; I was taking Jones as a representative of the Court. Which is pretty much irrelevant if NOBODY official knew until about five minutes ago...
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Post by Casey on May 26, 2010 21:46:59 GMT
I think there's some confusion as to the meaning of Jones's explanation. What I have comprehended, from past and recent reveals, is that Zimmingham is a manifestation of Zimmy's mind or memories. The power station draws etheric energy from the water and then sends it in a concentrated form [i.e., the lightning] down the relay to the next station. Zimmy sees the etheric about her, and she unconsciously draws etheric energy, but unlike the power station she is unable to easily direct and control the accrued energy. Mild episodes leave her surrounded (internally) by her own hellish, twisted memories of Birmingham. More severe episodes have physical manifestations of her nightmares. EDIT: Id est, by way of Jones's analogy, Zimmingham is the equivalent to the Power Station's lightning, but in an uncontrolled form. My understanding of page 193 (linked by spacemilk) is that Annie's presence does not dissipate as well as Gamma's, and Zimmy got sucked into an old memory. Note a) that she is already at the Court while having this episode in Zimmingham and b) Zimmy's frantic insistence that what just happened had happened already. Zimmy is constantly overloading. Spacemilk is right on target with the reason we get a trip to Birminghell in Chapter 19. It's not because the Power Station caused Zimmy to overload; rather, Zimmy stopped holding back Birminghell in her psyche because she had thought the rain would dissipate her "cpu heat," but having been altered by the Power Station, it had no effect (like with a shower), and it was too late to hold it back. I think Zimmy has to walk around 24/7 with the same psychological strain as the physical of a person trying to hold back diarrhea. Or consider her Birminghell manifestations having to constantly be held back in the same manner of Confessors' power in Goodkind's novels. That's why she's so elated from the release she received from the rain in Chapter 11. I give this post an A+. I've been trying to formulate in my head how to explain this all day, but you nailed it and saved me the trouble. Thank you.
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Post by todd on May 26, 2010 22:15:26 GMT
One other point (which may not be entirely relevant to the debate on how ethically the Court is behaving):
The Court did not force Jack to go out that night in Chapter Nineteen (and the preceding nights). He decided to go out, freely. He and the other children apparently knew that they weren't supposed to be out of their rooms after dark, but still went out , anyway - thus knowingly breaking the rules. And it wasn't even for a good purpose (as in some of Annie's examples of rule-breaking, such as rescuing Robot's chip in Chapter Twelve), but just to see the show.
Of course, the consequences outweigh the act; it's like being run down by a car and killed or made unable to walk for the rest of your life because you ran out into the street once against your parents' wishes.
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Post by jesses on May 26, 2010 22:23:56 GMT
Back tracking a bit onto the Food-Tracking...
Maybe I'm missing something in the archives were it states that Jones cannot tell lies or make jokes, but does anyone else think that not only could Jones have somehow overheard Jack and Annie's conversation but is now joking about it?
If the Court could really track people then a LOT of Annie's adventures no longer make as much sense to me.
So the Court just LET Annie discover the location of Renard despite how dangerous he is? I know you can argue it both ways, after all there WAS the fortuitous train, and Eglamore DID show up just in time to save her, but in the context of Gunnerkrigg those being happy coincidences makes as much sense to me.
What about in Chapter 8 when she has fallen off the Bridge, the tracking devices let everyone know where she is but they just leave her to rot in the Anan Waters?
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Post by todd on May 26, 2010 22:41:24 GMT
Not to mention that it's surprising that the Court didn't step in to deal with those nocturnal excursions, if they were tracking the children and would have known that they were sneaking out after dark and heading towards the area where the power station experiments were going on. Unless they don't have someone manning the monitors all the time.
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Post by Amethyst on May 26, 2010 22:42:46 GMT
This kind of dehumanization is used as a justification for everything from forced sterilization, to incarceration, to slavery, to murder and genocide, to the denial of basic human liberty, or to any number of inhumane treatments. The list of people who are actually hurt by these kinds of attitudes is long: African Americans (slavery), Jews (genocide), the developmentally disabled (genocide, incarceration, forced sterilization, institutional rape), the mentally ill (genocide, ect...), gypsies (genocide), ect... Don't forget the unborn in society today. Augh this can of worms, what have I done!
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Post by legion on May 26, 2010 22:54:00 GMT
This kind of dehumanization is used as a justification for everything from forced sterilization, to incarceration, to slavery, to murder and genocide, to the denial of basic human liberty, or to any number of inhumane treatments. The list of people who are actually hurt by these kinds of attitudes is long: African Americans (slavery), Jews (genocide), the developmentally disabled (genocide, incarceration, forced sterilization, institutional rape), the mentally ill (genocide, ect...), gypsies (genocide), ect... Don't forget the unborn in society today. Augh this can of worms, what have I done! QUICK, A DIVERSION! SAY YOU KNOW! All this talk about Zimmy's mind on a boat reminds me of something: Someone's rocking my dreamboat, someone's invading my dream. We were sailing along, so peaceful and calm, suddenly something went wrong. Someone's rocking my dreamboat, disturbing the beautiful dream. It's a mystery to me, this mutiny at sea, who can it be? A friendly breeze gave us a start to a paradise of our own. All at once a storm blew us apart and left me drifting alone. Someone's rocking my dreamboat, I'm captain without any crew. But with love as my guide, I'll follow the tide, I'll keep sailing 'til I find you. Someone's rocking my dreamboat, someone's invading my dream. We were sailing along, so peaceful and calm, suddenly something went wrong. Someone's rocking my dreamboat, disturbing our beautiful dream. It's a mystery to me, this mutiny at sea, who can it be? (Who can it be?) A friendly breeze gave us a start to a paradise of our own. All at once a storm blew us apart and left me drifting alone. Someone's rocking my dreamboat, I'm captain without any crew. But with love as my guide, I'll follow the tide, I'll keep sailing 'til I find you. FORESHADOWING? I THINK SO!
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Post by hal9000 on May 26, 2010 23:40:34 GMT
Augh this can of worms, what have I done! Made a valiant effort to derail the thread into a debate about abortion, I'd say. Hopefully most people won't take the bait. Unless they don't have someone manning the monitors all the time. I can't imagine they would, they'd have an insane amount of data to sift through. They probably have the system set up with automated filtering, with flags to attract a human operator's attention when some specified event occurs. That's how virtually every other pervasive surveillance system that I'm aware of works, and you can't really do it differently unless you want to pay for having almost the same number of people to watch as you are tracking (or you develop a suitably powerful AI, but that's neither here nor there). For instance, the authorities didn't come down on Annie right away when she snuck out of her dorm, or when she was at the building during the events of Power Station, so presumably those places don't raise a red flag in the system. But, Jones and her hit-squad showed up pretty damn quick when Annie and Jack made their way across the lake, so then I imagine that the lake and power station proper must be restricted areas for students that actually will trigger the aforementioned red flag. This is all made even more interesting by the fact that there are apparently rudimentary motion detection systems at the dorms, which are almost laughable compared to our theoretical food-tracking system. I imagine those are probably there either as a method of providing a technical challenge to the students, or because access to the food-tracking system data is restricted to higher-level court personnel. Or, possibly, both.
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blue
Junior Member
Posts: 69
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Post by blue on May 27, 2010 0:35:32 GMT
I'll show YOU valiant effort! Cells have less feelings than Gunnerkrigg robots and don't count as people. The unborn are less sentient than even the undead. I bet they can't even pass the turing test.
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Post by Mezzaphor on May 27, 2010 0:58:22 GMT
What about in Chapter 8 when she has fallen off the Bridge, the tracking devices let everyone know where she is but they just leave her to rot in the Anan Waters? Recall that in Ch 7, Annie set off an alarm as soon as she set foot on the bridge. Robot crossed the same bridge in Ch 1 without setting the alarm. And even without the tracking devices in her food, the Court knew that Annie was alive at the bottom of the gorge: Annie's contract over Reynardine would have been broken had she died, and Anja knew enough about the contract that she noticed that Rey was still bound and was able to connect the dots. (Hence why, for the print edition, Kat's last line on page 144 was changed to "They said you were okay!" or something to that effect.) Why didn't the Court swoop in to rescue Annie? Because Kat was already on the job.
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blue
Junior Member
Posts: 69
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Post by blue on May 27, 2010 1:06:12 GMT
What I want to know - 1. Jack already left to look elsewhere 2. The common consensus seems to be that Zimmy knows the plant is worthless so she isn't going to show up 3. Annie hilariously fails to mention the big ol' etheric spider on Jack
Is the rest of the chapter just going to be boring times or what?
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Post by legion on May 27, 2010 1:21:11 GMT
I'll show YOU valiant effort! Cells have less feelings than Gunnerkrigg robots and don't count as people. The unborn are less sentient than even the undead. I bet they can't even pass the turing test. Actually the consensus among scientists goes more and more tow-STOP BREATHING ON THE EMBERS AND IGNORING MY DIVERSION >:V
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Post by edzepp on May 27, 2010 2:05:27 GMT
Has Annie grown about a head taller? Compare her height in the last panel of this strip from chapter 17 to her height in the third panel of yesterday's strip. In the former, she comes up to around Jones' shoulders, but now they're both about level. My, how she's grown. Yes, this is another diversion.
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