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Post by evilanagram on Apr 2, 2010 18:34:26 GMT
As a side note, the fact that he's bound to something of a wolf form because he's occupying a stuffed wolf suggests that Aristotelian Forms are in play here. That means that there's something transcendental about the idea of a wolf that Reynardine has to adhere to. That's a good point, but it could be that the wolfishness is limited to form and does not affect his mind. Plus, the fact that his shape shifting is limited to variations on the them of wolf could be more a limit to his own powers than an example of Aristotelian Forms. It might even be a simple choice on his part. Okay, check out comic 408, panel 1. Reynardine was annoyed that random people were teasing Antimony. She allowed him to chase them off in a threatening manner in the previous comic. His mood has now changed into something cheerful and perhaps irreverent but his form hasn't changed. He is heading back to Antimony at a self-satisfied trot that is very inconsistent with cartoon-wolf body but quite suited to full-size wolf body. True, people are capable of a wide range of emotions, but I think the above example is evidence that Reynardine- when the mood that caused him to change form has passed- then reacts somewhat differently to experiences depending on his form; ie, his mind changes his body and his body changes his mind. Is disagree. When I saw he changes form as his mood changes, I mean he consciously shifts his shape because he wants to appear that way, and the way he wants to look (while limited to being something wolfish) depends on his mood. The fact that he didn't immediately gone into serious protective mode the moment he shifted forms and is acting smug and self-satisfied after scaring them off (a mood much more commonly associated with his cartoonish form) demonstrates that his shape does not affect his mind. His shape changing is a conscious action; which shape he is in depends on which shape he is in the mood to be in, and the particular variation on the theme of "wolf" doesn't really affect his mind.
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Post by warrl on Apr 3, 2010 1:24:33 GMT
That's a good point, but it could be that the wolfishness is limited to form and does not affect his mind. It would be easy to fall into a false dichotomy here. It's entirely possible for his shape to affect his mind/mood... but not necessarily determine them.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Apr 4, 2010 10:50:45 GMT
Perhaps we should back up a bit here...
Can we agree that the sensory organs of animals are not the same from species to species? The pupils in the eyes of goats, for example, are constructed very differently than a human eye.
Does that mean that different species experience sensory events differently, or is there anyone who would argue that the Form of an eye (for example) is that organ that sees, therefore no matter its construction it sees the same?
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Post by La Goon on Apr 4, 2010 11:52:37 GMT
I'm not completely sure what you're hinting at here, but it just occurred to me that the body Reynardine is currently occupying doesn't actually have any sensory organs, so he must either be sensing his surroundings magically, or his presence in the toy has enhanced the faked organs to actually work. That may also give a different result
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Apr 4, 2010 15:29:35 GMT
I'm not completely sure what you're hinting at here, but it just occurred to me that the body Reynardine is currently occupying doesn't actually have any sensory organs, so he must either be sensing his surroundings magically, or his presence in the toy has enhanced the faked organs to actually work. That may also give a different result I'm seeing if we can get everyone onto the same page as far as the premises behind Mind/Body dualism. You're quite right about Reynard but for the moment let's stick with the [debatable] reality of [ivory tower] philosophy. If nobody wants me to explain why I think that sense organs have definable mechanical traits as opposed to a Form I'll skip it and move on to how that applies to what I've posted before.
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Post by Casey on Apr 4, 2010 16:32:32 GMT
Why debate points that La Goon has already demonstrated aren't applicable to the topic at hand? Clearly you can't generalize the situation of an immortal folk spirit in the body of a cotton-stuffed toy to any reality-based theoretical philosophy.
In my humble opinion, having watched this back-and-forth for several pages, it still seems to me that the best course of action is to just accept what Tom Siddell said about his own creative work, and accept that Rey was being sarcastic, and be content with that.
One could certainly debate the points of whether a theoretical real world person's world-view would be changed by transformation into another creature (Kafka's Metamorphosis, anyone?), but what I'm trying to say here is that such a debate would have no bearing on what we can expect from "reality" in the given case, where you're talking about a different kind of entity in a fictional universe.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Apr 5, 2010 2:31:38 GMT
Why debate points that La Goon has already demonstrated aren't applicable to the topic at hand? Clearly you can't generalize the situation of an immortal folk spirit in the body of a cotton-stuffed toy to any reality-based theoretical philosophy. Not yet applicable to the conversation isn't the same thing as not applicable. I thought maybe it would be simpler to talk about general ideas first and then get down to specific cases. One could certainly debate the points of whether a theoretical real world person's world-view would be changed by transformation into another creature (Kafka's Metamorphosis, anyone?), but what I'm trying to say here is that such a debate would have no bearing on what we can expect from "reality" in the given case, where you're talking about a different kind of entity in a fictional universe. I have this weird idea that logic applies in both reality and analyzing works of fiction. I was actually trying to see if I could skip some tangents and move on to more relevant things. In my humble opinion, having watched this back-and-forth for several pages, it still seems to me that the best course of action is to just accept what Tom Siddell said about his own creative work, and accept that Rey was being sarcastic, and be content with that. Respectfully, I think you're reading something into what Tom said that isn't really there. The question that prompted that response was about if Reynard's experiences at Court would have a lasting effect on his personality. That Reynard changes his forms to suit his mood and not the other way around I in fact do accept, and I have said so before. That is absolutely not the same thing as saying that the way Reynard experiences things remains unchanged regardless of what body he's in.
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Post by Casey on Apr 5, 2010 3:12:36 GMT
That is absolutely not the same thing as saying that the way Reynard experiences things remains unchanged regardless of what body he's in. Would it be too troublesome to point out that Rey isn't even changing bodies?
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Apr 5, 2010 4:08:29 GMT
That is absolutely not the same thing as saying that the way Reynard experiences things remains unchanged regardless of what body he's in. Would it be too troublesome to point out that Rey isn't even changing bodies? Between stuffed wolf, large wolf mode and cartoon wolf mode, you mean? That sure looks like a change to me. I don't think Antimony would've been able to ride Reynard if the change was illusory and he was only a foot tall, eh? Since Reynard-changing questions are verboten I've Formspring'd a general question to Tom about the mind and shape changing/ body switching. Perhaps he'll clarify.
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Post by Casey on Apr 5, 2010 5:53:03 GMT
Eh, I've posted and then subsequently deleted two different posts responding, but ultimately decided that engaging this just isn't worth it to me. Suffice to say that I for one see some very large inconsistencies in your differing arguments. Got way more important things to think about than this debate though... no insult to you, of course, it's just that this is merely a Pointless Internet Argument.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Apr 5, 2010 7:29:58 GMT
I think the fun's been sucked out of this conversation but just in case there are people reading trying to figure out what I was trying to say, I'll summarize.
While I agree Reynard's mood/mind is fully in control, I would argue that his mood/mind seems to have a dynamic relationship with his body; it is not wholly independent and inviolate. The dynamic changes when the body changes, be it changing his own form or taking someone else's body, the change within the dynamic being proportional to the change in body. I think that I could build a case from general philosophy that this is at least possible within, perhaps even consistent with, what we've seen of the GC universe.
As I was about to post that I saw Tom's reply on Formspring.
q: "About beings in your comic who change shape or possess bodies: Is their mind colored by the new form at all or is it like how a driver is the same no matter what car he drives? If the latter, if they stay in another form long enough does that change?
a: "Sometimes their behaviour can be affected, but the personality is the same. Much like Reynardine." [April 5]
I'm not entirely sure if that makes me right or wrong.
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Post by warrl on Apr 5, 2010 8:32:59 GMT
Would it be too troublesome to point out that Rey isn't even changing bodies? Between stuffed wolf, large wolf mode and cartoon wolf mode, you mean? That sure looks like a change to me. It is a change. A shape change. He doesn't have several bodies and switch from one to another. (Where would he stash them, to have them always on hand?)
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Apr 5, 2010 9:36:52 GMT
Between stuffed wolf, large wolf mode and cartoon wolf mode, you mean? That sure looks like a change to me. It is a change. A shape change. He doesn't have several bodies and switch from one to another. (Where would he stash them, to have them always on hand?) Someone asked on Formspring if the weight (presumably meaning mass) of Reynard changed when we went from one form to another, and Tom replied "Yes, somewhat." I think that demonstrates that whatever magical reordering happens is more complex then a simple reforming of cloth and stuffing into a bigger hollow shape. His eyes appear yellow and more wolf-like, his nose looks more functional as well. I admit it is not a huge change of shape/form and it is not as drastic as if he'd stolen someone else's body, but I think there are some slight changes in behavior that I can point to as evidence in favor of my theory.
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Post by shouqi on Apr 5, 2010 13:33:43 GMT
I'm not sure this whole deal is really relevant - likely we'll see Reynardine's current body weight change between heavy and light as the plot requires. I say this not to kill the discussion, but to suggest that Tom is probably not going to feed you too much information on it, because in the comic itself it's not really important.
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Post by evilanagram on Apr 5, 2010 17:24:11 GMT
That's a good point, but it could be that the wolfishness is limited to form and does not affect his mind. It would be easy to fall into a false dichotomy here. It's entirely possible for his shape to affect his mind/mood... but not necessarily determine them. That is an excellent distinction to make. Perhaps we should back up a bit here... Can we agree that the sensory organs of animals are not the same from species to species? The pupils in the eyes of goats, for example, are constructed very differently than a human eye. Does that mean that different species experience sensory events differently, or is there anyone who would argue that the Form of an eye (for example) is that organ that sees, therefore no matter its construction it sees the same? You're seriously trying to make Aristotelian Form apply to real life? It doesn't. He was full of it. Granted, he didn't have centuries of empirical research and observation behind him, and his overall philosophy was a giant leap forward from Plato's, but he's still full of it. Sensory organs are different, and differently constructed organs will perceive things differently. In real life. In GK, the idea of an eye is apparently enough for Rey, but he's magic.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Apr 6, 2010 2:57:59 GMT
It would be easy to fall into a false dichotomy here. It's entirely possible for his shape to affect his mind/mood... but not necessarily determine them. That is an excellent distinction to make. Agree. Perhaps we should back up a bit here... Can we agree that the sensory organs of animals are not the same from species to species? The pupils in the eyes of goats, for example, are constructed very differently than a human eye. Does that mean that different species experience sensory events differently, or is there anyone who would argue that the Form of an eye (for example) is that organ that sees, therefore no matter its construction it sees the same? You're seriously trying to make Aristotelian Form apply to real life? It doesn't. He was full of it. Granted, he didn't have centuries of empirical research and observation behind him, and his overall philosophy was a giant leap forward from Plato's, but he's still full of it. Sensory organs are different, and differently constructed organs will perceive things differently. In real life. In GK, the idea of an eye is apparently enough for Rey, but he's magic. Okay, I think I can untangle this confusion about what I've been saying if I clarify two points. First, the only time I favorably mentioned Aristotelian Forms was as a side note. Reynard's transformations so far seem to be limited to wolves because the toy he possesses is a stuffed wolf, so Forms may be in play within the fictional universe of the comic. If they are in play then it strengthens my argument about the importance of changing bodies/forms/shapes (see below). The post you quote might have been more clear if I'd written "doesn't that mean" or "doesn't it follow that" instead of "does that mean." I wasn't arguing for the Forms of sense organs in reality. I was asking if we all agreed that sense organs have mechanical traits so we could move on to the implication that has for my argument. I've tried to clarify this twice before but appear to have failed. The implication of sense organs having mechanical traits and not Forms is very important to my argument because if bodies' senses work mechanically then reality is experienced differently from body to body and form to form. The greater the difference in the mechanical construction of the sense organs, the greater the difference in how reality is experienced. [See? I was going somewhere with that.] Second, I have been using the words "body" and "form" and "shape" interchangeably because for my argument it doesn't matter. The quality or amount the body/shape/form changes only affects the degree of impact the form/body/shape later has on the mood/mind. That's where the distinction of degree comes in once we've established that it's a possibility. Again, I agree that the mind/mood of Reynard is in complete control, but the form/body/shape he assumes when he changes then has an impact on his mood/mind. The impact may be minimal or even negligible but we do have evidence within the comic that bodies have mechanical traits instead of Forms. We also have a Formspring response that if Reynard possessed a girl his voice would sound like a girl, which I would argue means that Reynard's possession doesn't alter the mechanical construction of a living body per se. With a nonliving body he appears to have a lot more ability to transform it, including increasing its mass and changing the shape and characteristics.
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Post by avurai on Apr 6, 2010 5:01:39 GMT
My theory is “It’s just a comic."
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Apr 6, 2010 6:17:55 GMT
Oh believe me, nobody regrets where this thread's gone more than I do. All that philosophical-speak in my previous post was at least as tedious to write as it was to read.
However, I felt obligated to write it to defend my previous highly-controversial positions such as Reynard acting a little different in big wolf form, and maybe having an obligation to protect and comfort Antimony because he's in the body of a stuffed toy.
[edit] On further reflection, if a single reader anywhere on the net was entertained then it was all worthwhile. [/edit]
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Post by La Goon on Apr 6, 2010 9:23:25 GMT
I actually think your speculation makes sense, and Tom's answer on Formspring even seams to support it on some level: q: "About beings in your comic who change shape or possess bodies: Is their mind colored by the new form at all or is it like how a driver is the same no matter what car he drives? If the latter, if they stay in another form long enough does that change? a: "Sometimes their behaviour can be affected, but the personality is the same. Much like Reynardine." [April 5] Like a driver's mood and behavior can be affected by the vehicle he/she is driving, so can Reynardine's be affected by the body/shape he's currently in and how it "handles" (including senses).
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Apr 6, 2010 14:16:50 GMT
Bless you, though I don't regret my ideas... just my lack of ability to clearly communicate them. Even now I can't think of a simple and concise way to explain the reasons behind them.
At least I didn't bring up Ernst Mach or Edwin Boring.
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Post by avurai on Apr 6, 2010 17:51:31 GMT
At least I didn't bring up Ernst Mach or Edwin Boring. Well, too late now.
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Post by evilanagram on Apr 6, 2010 22:48:53 GMT
Your last long post did a great job clarifying your points.
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