|
Post by Rasselas on Jul 17, 2009 20:09:06 GMT
Interestingly, for some reason I also think Anthony is behind the tic-tocs. It's just a hunch on my side, though, and I have no real rational explanation for it. Except maybe for the fact that Anja and the Court have no idea where they came from, and that makes me feel like it's a new development, and Anthony has been away from the Court for something like the duration of his marriage or Annie's early childhood. Hum, seems I do have a rational explanation for that hunch after all, it's just that my brain subconsciously puts it all together. Weird.
|
|
|
Post by ducksweeper on Jul 17, 2009 20:16:55 GMT
I think you missed part of what I said. "if it turns out to have been something other than Diego creating the Tic-Tocs, it will come out of left field which wouldn't seem right." ... And don't refute people's points just for the sake of argument. They might make long expository essays like this one in response. The Tic-Tocs were first introduced on page 13. Diego doesn't show up until page 422 or page 432. That's a pretty large gap. Theoretically, Tom could introduce the responsible character 100 pages from now and still have enough time to make it foreshadowing. Your argument seems to assume we are going to find out who made them almost immeadiately. At the current time, with the currently available information, it seems most likely that Diego would have made them. However, there isn't enough information available to declare one true answer.
|
|
|
Post by Per on Jul 17, 2009 20:27:33 GMT
It's Chekov's Gun versus Deus ex Machina. I wouldn't say that. We know Diego made a set of robots and we suspect the present day Court robots are iterations of those. The Tic-Tocs represent another mystery and another set of robots. It's very possible that Diego made them (whether or not someone else later appropriated and/or modified them), but to say that he must have made them because he made other robots is not the only sensible option. I didn't figure it out, but I did notice the "clues" and if you don't know they're supposed to be clues they just look like the movie was badly made. I would name Fight Club as an example of a story that handles that sort of thing much better. How much do we have left?
|
|
|
Post by Ulysses on Jul 17, 2009 20:30:01 GMT
Of course she's not a robot! She's an android! Don't be absurd. She's a gynoid. Don't be absurd! She must be a gyroid. "A while now"? That's not helpful Renard! How long exactly?!
|
|
|
Post by Casey on Jul 17, 2009 20:46:59 GMT
It's very possible that Diego made them (whether or not someone else later appropriated and/or modified them), but to say that he must have made them because he made other robots is not the only sensible option. Yeah, but, I didn't say that. I said that having the Tic Toc's creator be some newly introduced character wouldn't seem right. The concept of Anthony is certainly plausible and falls within the ideas I mentioned. Man, I love that movie. I'm surprised I didn't think to use it as an example. I understand the point you're making here. We did -just- have Young, Steadman, and the Artilleryman introduced after all. But we've also had the main characters speculate about the Tic Toc's origins, after Diego was introduced. That more strongly pushes the concept that Annie's conclusion was right... and it would take an equally convincing push in the other direction to make the real answer, assuming it were something else, feel as convincing. Again, the idea of Anthony being involved fits the plausibility, even though I don't personally believe that conjecture is correct.
|
|
|
Post by zingbat on Jul 17, 2009 20:57:11 GMT
We know Diego made a set of robots and we suspect the present day Court robots are iterations of those. I thought that wasn't just a suspicion anymore? Jones comes right out and says on this page that Diego's the one "credited with the creation of the original court robots." (or were you including Jones & the court in the "we suspect"?) Regarding the rest of the discussion, it actually seems unlikely to me that Diego was the one behind the creation of the Tictocs. For one thing, the style of the tictocs is completely different from the style of the robots that Diego made. Diego's robots were very ornate and detailed, but you'd never mistake them for anything other than robots. The tictocs, on the other hand, are physically indistinguishable from normal, organic birds (with the exception of the ticking noise), until you cut them open. It also seems strange that the Court would know about the origin of all the rest of the robots but not about that of the tictocs, if it was in fact Diego who created all of them. I suppose it's possible that at some point Diego decided to break with his previous style and create a whole new, completely different (and top secret!) type of robot, but I don't know that we have any evidence for that. You could probably argue that Jeanne's death might have been the catalyst for such a switch, but I feel like that's getting into the realm of speculation without sufficient data, and Sherlock Holmes breaks into my room at night and sits by my bed and sobs when I do that. It's creepy.
|
|
|
Post by Per on Jul 17, 2009 21:15:34 GMT
I thought that wasn't just a suspicion anymore? Jones comes right out and says on this page that Diego's the one "credited with the creation of the original court robots." (or were you including Jones & the court in the "we suspect"?) I guess the uncertainty is mainly about whether the present robots can all be cleanly attributed to Diego or whether there have been progressive additions and/or modifications either by Court engineers or other robot-making parties in the modern world. We can tell there's a direct line from the old to the new Seraph model, but we're not sure (I think) whether the same is true for clerkbots, mitt-bots, don't-run-from-us-please-bots and so on. I think it's the common assumption, though. It's possible of course that the Court has been tinkering and modifying and branching out bot types, but that none of it would have been possible if not for Diego. I feel like that's getting into the realm of speculation without sufficient data, and Sherlock Holmes breaks into my room at night and sits by my bed and sobs when I do that. It's creepy. Well, SH has been responsible for a few rash inductions in his days, but if you use that against him he might just sob even louder, which does not solve your creepiness problem I guess. Edit: Here's a link to a review of a new flash platform game where you play Renard a fox. You collect regional fairies or something.
|
|
|
Post by Casey on Jul 17, 2009 21:56:28 GMT
I guess the uncertainty is mainly about whether the present robots can all be cleanly attributed to Diego or whether there have been progressive additions and/or modifications either by Court engineers or other robot-making parties in the modern world. We can tell there's a direct line from the old to the new Seraph model, but we're not sure (I think) whether the same is true for clerkbots, mitt-bots, don't-run-from-us-please-bots and so on. I think it's the common assumption, though. It's possible of course that the Court has been tinkering and modifying and branching out bot types, but that none of it would have been possible if not for Diego. This is an interesting speculation. But I thought Robot was pretty clear... when he said the robots maintained themselves, there's no indication that he's only talking about some of the robots, and that would be a glaring discrepancy in the accuracy of his answer.
|
|
|
Post by Mezzaphor on Jul 17, 2009 22:23:44 GMT
So here, it's late enough in the telling of GC How much do we have left? "And so did I wait for word from my father, unaware that I would not hear from him for over two years." I think it's a reasonable assumption that we'll see Annie get word from her father, which means the story will continue until the end of Annie's Year 9 at the absolute minimum. When asked if the break between Ch 22 and 23 represented the winter holiday, Tom basically said "Sure, why not". Which gives us a year and a half of in-story time, at minimum, remaining. The first print volume and the projected second volume each cover a semester apiece. Assuming this holds true*, we've got at least three more print volumes to go before the end. I think we're not even halfway into the complete story yet. *I grant this is a big assumption, since the chapters-to-in-story-time ratio hasn't held steady.
|
|
|
Post by ronokki on Jul 17, 2009 22:54:28 GMT
I don't think Diego made the Tic-Tocs. And I personally will never think it a possibility until we see a Tic-Toc in an old gang flashback.
|
|
|
Post by sandjosieph on Jul 18, 2009 1:07:23 GMT
Quick, goofy question: What's the Tic-Tocs favorite game? Tic-Toc-Toe! HAHAHAHA!!!
|
|
|
Post by Per on Jul 18, 2009 1:12:33 GMT
What title did the Tic-Tocs earn after a million undecided games of Tic-Toc-Toe? Tedium of the Court! Ahahahaha *16 ton weight*
|
|
|
Post by King Mir on Jul 18, 2009 5:28:47 GMT
Diego doesn't fit anyway. His creations we representative models. Intricate, but undeniably robotic. They also at the time used wireless etheric energy, which they were not able to duplicate apparently. By contrast the Tic-Tocs are well made wired robots. Made to have feathers and look convincingly like birds. There isn't even any indication that Diego had access to the wire based technology of the modern robots. I also from a story point of view don't think it likely that one person have two unrelated secrets. And aside from both being mechanical now, ticktocks and robots are not related in anyway so far. Anthony carver would be a candidate, except that Jones says that he didn't have patience for non scientific matters. Yet Zimmy can sense the gaze of a Tic-Toc, suggesting an etheric nature. Given the views of the court with regards to anything etheric, it seems unlikely that a scientific person from present day like Anthony would delve into a project like that. I suspect that whoever the creator is we haven't met him yet.
|
|
|
Post by Casey on Jul 18, 2009 6:39:13 GMT
You know, near the beginning of this thread I was pretty confident that Diego was responsible for making the Tic-Tocs. But you all have made such good arguments that now I doubt my certainty, and see the flaws in my argument. This is very interesting!
|
|
rageboy
Junior Member
just like real cows! only with lasers.
Posts: 91
|
Post by rageboy on Jul 18, 2009 8:55:08 GMT
I actually didn't think of King Mir's points. I was just refuting that we had to have met the creator of the birds already because of the oft-quoted "How much time is left" point. Well done, King Mir!
|
|
|
Post by Ulysses on Jul 18, 2009 11:01:03 GMT
It certainly does suggest an etheric nature, but in Zimmy rather than the birds, and we already know that Zimmy is fairly etheric anyway. The TicTocs appear to be entirely wire/electricity based (to my eyes, anyway), and I suggest it's to do with Zimmy's condition that she can't stand them looking at her rather than their nature. Anthony's still a contender, but I reckon the TicTocs were created by a third party, still unintroduced.
|
|
|
Post by imaginaryfriend on Jul 18, 2009 14:21:05 GMT
Jones is not a robot. Hmm... Jones is very heavy, swords bounce off her face, and she is detatched but promotes romance.
I bet Jones is Galatea.
|
|
|
Post by Yin on Jul 18, 2009 14:40:54 GMT
And who's her Pygmalion, then?
|
|
|
Post by omegax123 on Jul 18, 2009 15:53:14 GMT
And who's her Pygmalion, then? Randy?
|
|
|
Post by imaginaryfriend on Jul 19, 2009 0:25:09 GMT
And who's her Pygmalion, then? Dunno, maybe nobody living. Maybe several people. You know Aphrodite's reputation.
|
|
|
Post by wanderer on Jul 19, 2009 12:48:39 GMT
It certainly does suggest an etheric nature, but in Zimmy rather than the birds, and we already know that Zimmy is fairly etheric anyway. The TicTocs appear to be entirely wire/electricity based (to my eyes, anyway), and I suggest it's to do with Zimmy's condition that she can't stand them looking at her rather than their nature. Anthony's still a contender, but I reckon the TicTocs were created by a third party, still unintroduced. Don't be silly. The TicTocs are obviously three-dimensional extrusions of an eldritch abomination. They're all just part of a single enormous creature, the part we are capable of perceiving. Everyone knows that by now.
|
|
|
Post by King Mir on Jul 19, 2009 19:35:05 GMT
It certainly does suggest an etheric nature, but in Zimmy rather than the birds, and we already know that Zimmy is fairly etheric anyway. The TicTocs appear to be entirely wire/electricity based (to my eyes, anyway), and I suggest it's to do with Zimmy's condition that she can't stand them looking at her rather than their nature. Anthony's still a contender, but I reckon the TicTocs were created by a third party, still unintroduced. How can she feel the stare of a machine? Further there are machines all over the court, but there is no indication she can't stand most of them. If it is truly their stare that she can feel, then I cannot think of a no explanation that can be attributed to electric or mechanical technology. It is possible that they emit some sort of radiation that Zimmy is sensitive to. But otherwise I think there has to be an etheric explanation. I agree though that this is not enough to rule Anthony out completely.
|
|
|
Post by pepoluan on Jul 19, 2009 19:37:45 GMT
Don't be silly. The TicTocs are obviously three-dimensional extrusions of an eldritch abomination. They're all just part of a single enormous creature, the part we are capable of perceiving. Everyone knows that by now. nope, they are similar to the white mice in The Hitchhiker's Guide to The Galaxy: Representations of beings from another dimension in our dimension More seriously (I can't believe I said that while discussing a webcomic!), if Ysengrin can be believed, how come a pure-wires-and-components creatures grow itself on the cliff wall? Impossible. Unless they are some sort of self-building self-configuring nanomachines... And I believe nanomachines are strictly in the realm of science.
|
|
|
Post by King Mir on Jul 19, 2009 19:48:13 GMT
Well if Kat can build a gravity generator out of coat hangers, then it seems possible that somebody else can make a machine that can grow.
|
|
|
Post by pepoluan on Jul 19, 2009 20:00:46 GMT
How can she feel the stare of a machine? Further there are machines all over the court, but there is no indication she can't stand most of them. If it is truly their stare that she can feel, then I cannot think of a no explanation that can be attributed to electric or mechanical technology. It is possible that they emit some sort of radiation that Zimmy is sensitive to. But otherwise I think there has to be an etheric explanation. I agree though that this is not enough to rule Anthony out completely. There are three questions I'd like to raise here: 1. Zimmy said that the ticktocks are "A thousand eyes". What significance could we attach there? 2. The ticktocks appear to keep watch over the etheric students. Would you agree? 3. Despite Zimmy's etheric qualities, she is quite... disturbed by the power station's periodic discharges. Doesn't that mean that somehow the science world (electricity or EM) can affect the etheric world, and sometimes so significantly?
|
|
|
Post by Ulysses on Jul 19, 2009 20:24:03 GMT
1. I'd forgotten about the "thousand-eyes" thing. This suggests to me, and I know somebody else has already brought this up as a possibility, that the TicTocs are individual parts of a larger organism. Maybe there's a thousand of them, or if we're being more literal maybe there's 500 with 2 eyes each. It's more likely 1000 is just a generic large number though, I feel, plus it has a better ring than the "million-eyes", or even the "thousand-and-twenty-three-eyes".
2. We've only seen them take care of Annie so far, and one isn't a large enough number to be conclusive, or even form an educated opinion. Besides, Zimmy is definitely etheric and they don't exactly look after her.
3. Or that the power station is an etheric experiment rather than/as well as a scientific one. Reading through the chapter again the first sign of anything happening there is the water spontanneously rising up in streams and turning into clouds. That's definitely etheric. Or just really fast evaporation and condensation, I haven't decided yet ;D
|
|
|
Post by Tenebrais on Jul 19, 2009 21:27:00 GMT
Well, I was going to suggest that she was freaked out by the tic-tocs because she could clearly see them looking at her but couldn't feel a soul looking at her, possibly as an inversion of the faceless ones in her nightmarescape (but equally disturbing). A sort of spiritual motion sickness. But I can't really think of a way to link that with calling them thousand-eyes.
|
|
|
Post by Per on Jul 19, 2009 22:45:55 GMT
I think it's still possible that she could sense them and call them thousand-eyes if they make up a sort of electronic spy network. Magic and technology aren't entirely non-overlapping entities in the Gunnerverse (... right?).
|
|
|
Post by pepoluan on Jul 19, 2009 22:50:26 GMT
To revisit my 3 questions, I'll throw some of my thoughts which I just came up with:
- Maybe the ticktocks are surveillance devices? That should explain the thousand eyes. In relation to what Ulysses wrote. And also explains what Tenebraise mention about soulless things.
- If they are surveillance devices, then they are not actually taking care of the etheric students. Just watching them. But they are sufficiently equipped just-in-case, like when they have to stop Annie's fall
Ah! The soup thickens!
If they *are* surveillance devices, whose? And why?
And are they related to Jones?
Or maybe Jones made them after molecularly replacing all her bones with lightweight high-tensile alloy and her skin with a phase-change polymer?
. . .
We're fighting a losing battle with Tom's awesome creativity here...
|
|
|
Post by pepoluan on Jul 19, 2009 22:58:41 GMT
Per and me posted at the same time. Gee, great minds do think alike I also remember another thing: to clarify point 3 of Ulysses: what about natural rain? I think natural rain is not etheric, yet it does affect Zimmy.
|
|