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Post by Mezzaphor on Jul 2, 2009 2:33:13 GMT
As for Jeanne not being known, that might be easier than we think. Could go like this: The Court and Diego rather angrily part their ways in some massive verbal battle which winds up with him being blackballed, his designs changed so that a) the Court doesn't have to rely on him to maintain them, and b) they lose most of that fixation with Jeanne, as they would be going on about "We did nothing" which kinda kaputs the conspiracy. There's a good chance not all the reprogramming was that effective, given the box-hauling bots have an odd fixation with that painting. Maybe the Court covered up her existence because it was the only way to get the Robots to work properly again.
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Post by ethelmercaptan on Jul 2, 2009 4:10:08 GMT
Perhaps Jeanne was an adversary of the Court, but Diego loved her anyway (Romeo & Juliet style.) Young killed her in defense of the court, and Diego, being both a member of the Court and a coward, did nothing.
Now that we know there is an official Defender of the Court, is anyone else intrigued by the deeper purpose of the sword training going on when Jones first pulled Annie from class for medium training? If Annie is assumed (by some people at least) to be the future Official Medium, is there someone assumed to be Eglamore's replacement?
Parley does seem to be skilled at Liechtenauer...
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Post by Acnorn Landeth on Jul 2, 2009 14:53:23 GMT
Perhaps Jeanne simply isn't a real person. The painting could be of some wealthy person who Diego knew before fleeing to the forest. (Or, perhaps he knew a real Jeanne before fleeing and that painting is of her, but she never went to the forest)
Jeanne could be a representation of the relationship between people and the forest, and eventually the court and the forest. The ghost of Jeanne is literally the spirit of their friendship and cooperation, the peace in a new world surrounded by war and humanity, now trapped forever in the divide between the court and the forest.
This could very well explain Diego's anger at Young/Bullbot for doing what he did to "her" and "her" dying and them doing nothing.
Think about it. Young could have jeopardized the friendship, pulling at the seams and refusing to cooperate, doing what he did to "her." Then as all talk came to a standstill and the sides were near war, Diego, the coward, realized that they could still save the relationship, but did nothing, and blames everyone for doing the same (because honestly, it's probably true. People aren't usually brave enough to stand up for what they believe in.) "She" died, and we did nothing.
Diego seems to be a man who finds a balance between technology and etheric sciences. His "robots," if they can be called such, are driven by an unknown power source, almost certainly etheric in nautre. He escaped conflict once, and did not want to see another one develop.
That's why Jeanne has no record in Court history, she didn't exist, or at least not in the Court or forest.
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Post by bisected8 on Jul 2, 2009 15:18:29 GMT
So that's a ghost of a relationship hanging around by the river?
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Post by Saccha on Jul 2, 2009 17:36:20 GMT
I don't think so, I think she is a real person, though she may symbolize the peace between the court and forest in the story.
My theories on Jeanne in relation to this scene; -She's already died before it takes place -She hasn't yet arrived, or even been born (in the picture in the shrine to Jeanne, Diego appears to be older. Maybe she's his daughter?) - She's not human, so she is not "a woman amongst the humans" and thus not considered very relevant by the court -She is the seed bismuth. Or perhaps her corpse is.
On a different note, I like how you can find representations of the residents of the court/forest among the original robots. And is it just me or does the guy on panel 4 of comic 582 look like boxbot in all his lameness?
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Post by fidodo on Jul 2, 2009 18:17:35 GMT
She couldn't have already died, or why would her ghost be stuck in Annan waters? They haven't been created yet. Also, I think Muuts presence implies that she is human.
You bring up a good point in pointing out that she's not necessarily a love interest. We kinda jumped to that conclusion, but she could also be a daughter or a loved one in a different way.
Maybe, there's no record of her because Diego didn't want her to be remembered badly. If she was the catalyst that broke the bonds between the forest and the court she would be villianized in history, and Diego wouldn't want that.
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Post by Ulysses on Jul 2, 2009 19:41:56 GMT
Acnornlandeth, following on from your point of 'Jeanne' representing the relationship between the Court and the Forest. Although I don't think she is metaphorical spirit you were talking about, I do think there is the possibility that, just as Young was the first Protector, maybe Jeanne was the first medium. That could be why she is stuck half-way between the Court and the Forest.
Why not go even further and say that it was her death that created the Waters? Maybe Young got uppity with Coyote, and Jeanne, as the Medium, tried to prevent a fight but got caught in the middle. Or Coyote was going to kill Jeanne for some reason, and Young refused to rescue her because he was afraid of being hurt or killed by Coyote. The reason for Coyote killing Jeanne could be a subversion of the ol' "Blood of a Virgin" ritual - the Waters are not merely a physical barrier, there is something etheric going on there, so maybe to get the full separation effect the Medium had to die. The bridge built later was an attempt to recreate the original effect of the Medium but obviously a human Medium works much better.
Either scenario gives Diego fairly solid grounds for hating Young, whether Jeanne was his daughter, love-interest, secretary, or whatever.
This should probably be in Wild Spec but what the heck, it's here now.
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Post by Saccha on Jul 2, 2009 20:32:20 GMT
Coyote said that the court did something so no living thing could cross, maybe it was her death that did it?
Also, I gotta wonder how Coyote messed up the power balance between the etheric beings already living in the forest and the humans. Did everyone even want the two sides to be completely seperated or did Coyote just bust onto the scene one day and decide he was running the show?
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Post by Casey on Jul 2, 2009 21:27:36 GMT
Also, I think Muuts presence implies that she is human. Muut was there because he was collecting the soul of the shadow man that Eglamore killed on the bridge. The one that was controlling Robot. See, the shadow men were Coyote's creation, and came with him to Gillitie Wood from the Americas. Muut is a Native American psychopomp, and that is why he is the psychopomp for dead shadow men. This is all in the archives somewhere. Also, I gotta wonder how Coyote messed up the power balance between the etheric beings already living in the forest and the humans. I'm curious why you think Coyote had anything to do with it? Coyote collected Ysengrin and Renard and came to Gillitie Wood to make it a place of great power and union, but all he found was a terrible squabble. The humans were already trying to deconstruct the nature of the etherium and tame the forest creatures when the Trio got there. That is unless you think Coyote was lying to Annie. But keep in mind, Jones said that Coyote is no liar. All this information is found in Medium Beginning and Coyote Stories.
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Post by Saccha on Jul 2, 2009 21:54:40 GMT
I'm curious why you think Coyote had anything to do with it? Coyote collected Ysengrin and Renard and came to Gillitie Wood to make it a place of great power and union, but all he found was a terrible squabble. The humans were already trying to deconstruct the nature of the etherium and tame the forest creatures when the Trio got there. That is unless you think Coyote was lying to Annie. But keep in mind, Jones said that Coyote is no liar. All this information is found in Medium Beginning and Coyote Stories. I don't think Coyote had anything to do with the squabble, I just wonder what kind of effect several super-powerful etheric beings suddenly appearing in the forest would have on the balance of power. I'm sure whoever was in charge before then didn't appreciate suddenly being trumped by some dog from across the ocean. Also, I don't think it's very likely that the coyote did much consulting with the other beings before physically splitting the forest and the court. He seems to be a pretty impulsive guy, he most likely intended to keep the grudge from escalating, but didn't really think it through. Maybe he made the already existent grudge worse, maybe he softened it, I don't know. I also don't think Coyote had done anything to directly cause Jeanne's death, otherwise Diego probably would have vilified him.
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Post by ultrabluesky on Jul 6, 2009 15:56:32 GMT
I have a quick theory. Please forgive me if this has been mentioned already in the thread--I am running out to rehearsal in a few moments. The robots which are shown in the comic to correspond with real people, say "She died and we did nothing" Which previously was thought to mean that nothing was done to save her. Perhaps she could not be saved anyway and what is referred to is avenging her death. I theorize that Jeanne was not human, a link between the ether and the science of gunnerkrigg & gillitie, but when she was killed by one side, the other did not avenge her. They let her death slide, and now soemthing else has happened, split the two sides, and the robots regret not avangering her death. They regret being patient maybe? Uhm, she habors ill will as well, seen in her attracking Annie. Don't know for sure what this implies. Uh, just read back into the Archives and it seems that the S1 robot says "You will pay for what you did to her" After telling Annie and Kat that Jeanne "died and we did nothing." So it seems my theory may be out the window, but I also suggested she was a link between the two, Gillitie and Gunnerkrigg, maybe she was the first medium? Not present in the courts beginnings, but present in the split between the Court and the Creatures? It's really interesting to read into the archives, puts a whole new spin on some of my thoughts when I read this comic one page at a time. Tom, Gunnerkrigg court is very impressive. Congrats on a great job so far, keep up the outstanding work!
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Post by ultrabluesky on Jul 6, 2009 16:15:01 GMT
Acnornlandeth, following on from your point of 'Jeanne' representing the relationship between the Court and the Forest. Although I don't think she is metaphorical spirit you were talking about, I do think there is the possibility that, just as Young was the first Protector, maybe Jeanne was the first medium. That could be why she is stuck half-way between the Court and the Forest. Why not go even further and say that it was her death that created the Waters? Maybe Young got uppity with Coyote, and Jeanne, as the Medium, tried to prevent a fight but got caught in the middle. Or Coyote was going to kill Jeanne for some reason, and Young refused to rescue her because he was afraid of being hurt or killed by Coyote. The reason for Coyote killing Jeanne could be a subversion of the ol' "Blood of a Virgin" ritual - the Waters are not merely a physical barrier, there is something etheric going on there, so maybe to get the full separation effect the Medium had to die. The bridge built later was an attempt to recreate the original effect of the Medium but obviously a human Medium works much better. Either scenario gives Diego fairly solid grounds for hating Young, whether Jeanne was his daughter, love-interest, secretary, or whatever. This should probably be in Wild Spec but what the heck, it's here now. This would make sense, but I'd go further to say that Young didn't mind seeing the divide between the Forest and Court, I read back a little as Jones is explaining the court to Annie ( page) she says that mediums weren't needed until the two divided. So, let's say that the two groups began to see differences and so the Humans devised mediums as a way to better understand the ether, and communicate. The ether might've not liked this new introduction and tried to destroy Jeanne, the first medium, but while Diego was worried about her death, his devotion to the relationship between the Court and the Forest, Young wanted to see the division. He wanted the waters to divide. But where does Coyote come into this? And truly, we can see he bears no ill will towards mediums in general... He especially likes Annie as we can see. Going back to Jones's words, she says the Humans were offered refuge. Humans are grateful, but those like Young see it as a burden after a while, living in the rule of the Forest. There is a divide, naturally, and Young wants it to occur. But Jeanne, who is bridging the gap that has begun to appear between the Court and the Forest, does want it to grow. She's peaceful and so on, and doesn't like the divide. There is a conflict where Young grows angry with Jeanne, she may not even have been a medium, merely a foot soldier (thus the sword) or a courtesan, who wanted peace between Forest and Court, or maybe she was Human, but grew more and more into part of the Forest, and dislikes Humans. Young had a conflict with her, because he didn't like the Forest any more. Or not even conflicted with her, but for all she stood for--the combination of Humans and the ether. Jeanne appealed to Coyote, as a part of the Forest, and when Young would not yield (and someone on his side, or him, possibly, killed Jeanne and tore the combination of the Humans and the ether finally asunder) Coyote became very angry and might have said "Fine, you can have your division." And tore the two apart. Possibly peeing on the border to mark his territory, thus Annan waters. He would totally do that, don't deny he would do that.
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