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Post by todd on Feb 2, 2009 0:49:26 GMT
Some of the recent talk over whether Annie wants Reynardine to listen in or not prompted these thoughts.
Even before she visited Coyote in the woods and learned that Reynardine had been infatuated with her mother (which is no doubt why Annie's so uneasy about him now), Annie had been cautious about him. As late as Chapter Nineteen, she reminds Kat that Reynardine had tried to kill her, and brings it up again in Chapter Twenty. She knows that he can be useful, that he even saved her life in Chapter Fourteen, but she's still on her guard.
And Reynardine has never yet shown any contrition for deceiving and trying to possess (and thereby kill) her in Chapter Three. Furthermore, his action was all the worse because he knew at the time that Annie was the daughter of the woman whom he had been in love with (apparently still is, from his response to the news of her death), and still tried doing those things to her. (And I'm afraid that he really was targeting Annie rather than the plush toy all along, since he had almost reached her eyes when Eglamore came to the rescue.) Under those circumstances, Annie should be wary of him - and she is.
It's possible that Reynardine is changing for the better, but it's also possible that, since he knows he's under Annie's control, he wants to get on her good side (remember how he sabotaged Kat's competitors in the Year 7 science fair for that purpose) and make her think he's changed. He displays much comedy in his plush toy form, and grandeur and loyalty in his wolf form - but that may not be enough as long as he's shown no sign that he's sorry for what he tried doing to her when they first met.
Annie's earned my respect all the more for remaining vigilant around him; she's clearly not likely to be lured into forgetting that a dangerous character's dangerous simply because he looks majestic. This is one girl who doesn't fall for the "bad boy" (though we have yet to see Annie fall for any kind of boy).
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Post by Mezzaphor on Feb 2, 2009 2:45:05 GMT
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Post by Babble-jargon Bill on Feb 2, 2009 3:13:57 GMT
I think, given his circumstances over the last year, Reynardine must be a very confused er...guy. The general consensus, from what I can tell, is that Rey tried to take Annie's body the first time out of desperation and possibly from hysteria. Since then, he has been imprisoned in the wolf toy and under the control (to an extent) of a 12 year old girl. He tried at first to gain her favour, but I think he's realized that he can't really impress Annie in any sort of way, so he just tries to be helpful, or failing that, not try and do something stupid. Over the course of the story so far we see that Rey has come to genuinely care for Annie and has, as we all know, saved her life. I think now he's just trying to make the best of his current situation. But that doesn't change the fact that he hasn't once shown any remorse or given any sort of apology for his actions.
To me he sees himself as a sort of guardian to her, making sure that she does alright and everything. Remember when he offered to chaperone the girls during their trip to see the power station? He must feel responsible for her safety, seeing as how he did try to kill her once, and thinks that if he acts as Antimony's protector, the Court will eventually forgive him for his past actions.
We all know Rey isn't Annie's father, but she doesn't know that as of now. Sooner or later she is going to make Reynardine tell the whole story of the time he took the body of the man and snuck into the Court. But at the moment she probably feels a little apprehensive about talking to him, seeing as how it was just days ago that she learned that he not only was in love with her mother, but also that he loved her so much he took the body of some poor guy just so that he could be with Surma. I'm really interested to learn how Surma reacted to this. From the picture we have seen of her with Rey in Gillitie, the two were good friends.
Maybe in the next few pages we will see Anja discuss Reynardine with the girls a bit. I'm interested to see what her current impression of him is. At least she said hi this time.
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Post by sebastian on Feb 2, 2009 8:25:51 GMT
There is another point to consider, that he is trying to protect her because he is not sure what would happen if she dies while he is under her ownership contract, or whatever it is called. Maybe he would be free, or maybe his (its?) ownership is passed to the school, or to Antimony's father and he probably don't want to risk either.
I'am not sure this is the case, but it is a possibility.
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Post by todd on Feb 2, 2009 11:41:03 GMT
To me he sees himself as a sort of guardian to her, making sure that she does alright and everything. Remember when he offered to chaperone the girls during their trip to see the power station? He must feel responsible for her safety, seeing as how he did try to kill her once, and thinks that if he acts as Antimony's protector, the Court will eventually forgive him for his past actions. I've sometimes wondered whether his offer was motivated by protectiveness, or by jealousy (scaring off any boys who might show an interest in Annie). For that matter, ever since Coyote's revelations in Chapter Twenty, I've wondered about Reynardine's question in Chapter Eighteen whether Annie's had her eyes on any of the boys at school - was that so he could figure out whom to possess if he ever got free? (Which would mean that he doesn't learn from his mistakes - but then, this is the guy who made a rude gesture at Annie while he was under the silent treatment, without stopping to think what Annie would do if she saw it.) |
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Post by Refugee on Feb 2, 2009 18:17:41 GMT
I concur with Confusticated Bill.
===
Why the insistence on an apology? That's a human conceit, and I doubt that he gives a verbal apology any weight at all.
He might not even see that he has anything to apologize for; he acted in accordance with what he thought were his best options at the time.
What matters to him (and beings like him) are deeds, not words. By his actions he shows himself on Annie's side.
===
One more thing: He is completely at Annie's mercy. He is, in a very real sense, Annie's slave. In my scheme of things, slaves have absolutely nothing to apologize for. (Note: this analysis is complicated by the fact that his attempt on her life preceded her possession of him. He tried to make her his slave; in that sense, this is simply fair-play turnabout. I believe, however, my main point still stands.)
Now, as slave owners go, Annie has treated him very well, with a few exceptions (like forgetting that she'd placed a silence on him). She has allowed him to defend his dignity. She is granting him increasing liberties as he shows himself trustworthy.
The day is coming, I expect, when Annie will free him -- all she has to do, I think, is tell him "Do as you will".
Until that day, he owes no apology.
===
Flashback to Inuyasha: It always bothered me that, at least in the TV series episodes that I've watched (most of them), Kagome never removed the command necklace from Inuyasha's neck.
The scene I wanted to see, desperately:
She takes off the necklace, and gives it to him.
Later, against Kagome's advice and desperate pleas, he does something that makes her abandon him, something he comes to be ashamed of.
And he heals the breach by voluntarily giving the necklace back to her, and asking that she again bind him, voluntarily accepting her as his conscience.
That's not slavery, that's true love, true trust, and a true apology, and I look for the day when something like that happens between Rey and Annie.
[edited numerous times, as my thought developed. I think I'm done now.]
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Post by Rasselas on Feb 2, 2009 19:17:42 GMT
(And I'm afraid that he really was targeting Annie rather than the plush toy all along, since he had almost reached her eyes when Eglamore came to the rescue.) I am still not completely convinced. It seems to me that Reynardine would've had to pretend to attack Annie so Eglamore wouldn't pay attention to the toy. If he'd transitioned to the toy immediately, it would've been obvious and everyone would've known. Furthermore, Elgamore could've destroyed it on the spot. There's a sort of harsh self-justice in making everyone think you wanted to kill someone again, never letting yourself be forgiven. Another question remains unanswered: why didn't he make an attempt to possess her earlier on the roof? I suppose it's because that would've caused just another pointless death, as Eglamore would've seen it and either killed or imprisoned the Reynardine in Annie's body. Or perhaps he was still surprised from realizing the girl's connection with Surma. Then again, making Reynardine into a tragically misunderstood white knight could also take away a level of depth from the character. Of course, if you find yourself imprisoned for years without much hope of breaking free, one might even start considering murder as an option. It's weaknesses like that that make characters imperfect and consequently interesting, rather than idealistic archetypes that are too perfect to be believable. |
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Post by fjodor on Feb 2, 2009 20:34:44 GMT
I'm with Rasselas on this one. Reynardine is a trickster. If he had possessed Annie, he would not have been able to hide. I think that he tried to escape by taking the wolf body, but that he did not realise that he would be a slave to the owner of the toy. In the world of Gunnerkrigg I am sure that all animals and humans are free. I do not recall any reference to someone having a pet dog, for example. I can also imagine that Reynardine wanted to take a lifeless body so that he would not have to kill after his next 'jump'.
Would his 'original' body still be in the Forest?
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Post by todd on Feb 3, 2009 0:26:40 GMT
Incidentally, recalling the last paragraph of my original post:
So far, "Gunnerkrigg Court" seems refreshingly free of girls falling for "bad boys". The only example I can think of is Janet (and I'd say that she and Winsbury deserve each other). The other girls either go for nicer boys (Kat and Alistair, Margot and Sullivan's John) or don't seem interested in boys at all (Annie, Zimmy, Gamma).
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ding
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Post by ding on Feb 3, 2009 1:50:49 GMT
The vulpines are not to be trusted... Reynard is sly, amoral, cowardly, and self-seeking, he is still a sympathetic hero, whose cunning is a necessity for survival. He symbolizes the triumph of craft over brute strength, usually personified by Isengrim, the greedy and dull-witted wolf. www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/500778/Reynard-the-FoxReynard will have his day... |
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Post by Refugee on Feb 3, 2009 3:34:05 GMT
Reynard is sly, amoral, cowardly, and self-seeking, he is still a sympathetic hero, whose cunning is a necessity for survival. He symbolizes the triumph of craft over brute strength, usually personified by Isengrim, the greedy and dull-witted wolf. Fascinating quote; I had no idea Isengrim was also an ancient fable. Nevertheless, I don't see any suggestion that Rey is dishonorable -- certainly not to the extent of killing someone who has treated him honorably and kindly, given the circumstances. |
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Post by todd on Feb 3, 2009 12:11:48 GMT
Ysengrin seems less dull-witted than his beast-fable counterpart, though also less mentally stable. (Of course, the beast-fables were composed before Coyote bestowed his gift upon him.)
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Post by menschenjaeger on Feb 3, 2009 14:46:55 GMT
This is in regards to Rey's apparent lack of contrition for nearly killing Antimony. I think the explanation for Rey's behavior in his early appearances falls into one of three categories. 1) Reynardine is/was evil. I doubt it. He's been imprisoned for a long time. Perhaps his his escape was of great enough importance to warrant the sacrifice of another life, even a girl that resembled his lost love. 2) The character and the main plotline have both evolved quite a lot from GC's early days. As in many serialized stories, the earliest chapters become sort of a foggy or unreliable memory of the original events. I don't know of a term for this, so allow me to put forward "soft retconning."  3) Rey never intended to actually take Antimony's body. He knew the "loophole" in the rules governing his powers and being a trickster, was thrilled to see that Eglamore was around: A perfectly reliable witness to a failed possession attempt! His greatest adversary, and he would be utterly convinced of Reynardine's destruction! And a body that would be, as he said himself, the perfect disguise. Again, being a trickster, his admission of "attempted murder" was most likely some trash-talkin', to intimidate/alienate Antimony, or...possibly the result of a guilty conscience. |
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Chrome
Full Member
The Shiny One
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Post by Chrome on Feb 3, 2009 16:32:57 GMT
Huh. There's an idea I just thought of.
What if Reyn willingly jumped into Sivo's body out of guilt? I mean, once Surma found out about his possession, things would've gone downhill between them. If Sivo gave himself up as a trap to hold Reynardine in one place, then it's possible Rey was smart enough to see that trap.
But if Surma had turned away from him after realizing what he did, what other option did he have than to go get himself locked up, away, because the girl he loved is now pissed at him?
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Post by menschenjaeger on Feb 3, 2009 17:33:26 GMT
It's a nice theory, but Antimony's older than five, or even ten. UNLESS you subscribe to an "Antimony is an homonculus" theory. |
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Post by todd on Feb 6, 2009 23:30:32 GMT
A further thought about Reynardine, which I thought I'd add to this thread.
While his attempt to possess Annie comes as a shock, not only to her, but also to the readers (I assume - that was my response the first time I read the chapter), there are hints earlier that Reynardine's pose of being the unjustly persecuted monster and Eglamore the villainous monster-hunter is just that.
1. When they first meet on the roof, Reynardine tells Annie that the "Dragon Slayer" will not approach him so long as she is close by. It recently struck me that if the "Dragon Slayer" really was a villainous character, he'd be more likely to go after Reynardine no matter where he was, even if there was a child near by - and might ruthlessly dispose of the child as well. (Not that this is necessarily the case; a man who hunts dragons - or, in this case, Rogat Orjaks - for ignoble reasons, such as a fanatical hatred of the species or a desire for a trophy over his fireplace, might have enough of a twisted sense of honor to spare human innocents and restrain himself for their sake.)
2. More significantly, when Annie enters the holding cell, Reynardine's saying to Eglamore, in a gloating manner, "It was worth it to see the look on your face. I almost took you that time." To which Eglamore tells him that "Hiding behind a little girl isn't exactly very sporting." The tone of that conversation doesn't suggest a gentle misunderstood monster being wrongfully persecuted by an armored bully, but an imprisoned criminal confronting his jailer.
We don't know whether Annie overheard those specific words or not (the fact that they're printed in the story doesn't tell us anything; we've seen a few conversations in the course of the webcomic that Annie could not have overheard, because she was absent or - in the case of Reynardine realizing that Surma is dead and mourning her - unconscious); it's likely that she was too distracted by the realization that Reynardine had apparently known her mother, and her desire to know more, to take in the significance of those words. But it's possible that if she'd been more alert, she might have realized that something was not entirely right here, before Reynardine tried possessing her.
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Post by sinewmire on Feb 7, 2009 14:12:13 GMT
Sorry, I don't believe it. The artwork makes it seem very close (to the point where Antimony's eyes have no pupils, always a bad sign) and Reynard was obviously desperate, abandoning his old body as he sees the possibility of escape fast vanishing. Eglamore will never let him have another chance, and might even have decided then and there that it was too dangerous to allow his continued existance.
Had he even seen the doll before? I need to go back over that, I think, before I talk about that bit.
Rey has been trying to ingratiate himself of late, as much as his pride will let him, and telling Antimony that he wasn't actually trying to kill her would do that pretty well, I'm thinking.
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Post by nevermore on Feb 7, 2009 15:24:15 GMT
Sorry, I don't believe it. The artwork makes it seem very close (to the point where Antimony's eyes have no pupils, always a bad sign) and Reynard was obviously desperate, abandoning his old body as he sees the possibility of escape fast vanishing. Eglamore will never let him have another chance, and might even have decided then and there that it was too dangerous to allow his continued existance. Had he even seen the doll before? I need to go back over that, I think, before I talk about that bit. Rey has been trying to ingratiate himself of late, as much as his pride will let him, and telling Antimony that he wasn't actually trying to kill her would do that pretty well, I'm thinking. One of the first things he did was take note of the toy wolf, here: www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=46It seems a strange thing to ask about, and is at least a good possibility that he planned to take the toy all along. |
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Post by todd on Feb 7, 2009 23:24:05 GMT
Rey has been trying to ingratiate himself of late, as much as his pride will let him, and telling Antimony that he wasn't actually trying to kill her would do that pretty well, I'm thinking. Which he wouldn't be able to do, if that really *had* been his intent, since Annie's hold over him prevents him from lying to her. (The most he can do is tell her things that he believes to be true, where he's honestly mistaken.) |
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Post by Mezzaphor on Feb 8, 2009 0:02:13 GMT
I think it's interesting that Rey has almost nothing whatsoever to do with demons as they're portrayed in Christian cosmology. I guess when Eglamore called him a demon way back in chapter 3, it was a reference to Rey's body-snatching powers and nothing more.
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Post by todd on Feb 8, 2009 0:18:15 GMT
I think it's interesting that Rey has almost nothing whatsoever to do with demons as they're portrayed in Christian cosmology. I guess when Eglamore called him a demon way back in chapter 3, it was a reference to Rey's body-snatching powers and nothing more. Yes, I initially thought (before we found out more about him) that Reynardine was a conventional demon who had no body of his own and had to possess the bodies of others to do anything in our world. Now we know that he was once a talking fox who'd been given body-snatching abilities by Coyote that didn't work as well as he thought they would. Eglamore might have been biased against Reynardine because of the fox's crush on Surma - though he'd have just cause to be concerned about Reynardine's activities, even without it. We know that Reynardine is responsible for at least two deaths in the Court, and maybe more (we don't know whether he jumped straight from the young man's body to Sivo's, or if he went through a few other hosts first) - not to mention that rabbit in the forest. |
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Post by Xeeron on Feb 12, 2009 23:42:43 GMT
Character analysis: ReynardineBackground (according to Coyote) Reynardine "rained misery and joy on the humans" 490, likely somewhere in Europe, when he was found by Coyote. He made friends among the humans and refused Coyote's powers 495. He fell in love with Surma 496 and finally accepted Coyote's power to be close to her in human form he took over. For that, he was imprisoned 497. So far there is no reason to doubt Coyote's words, but of course, Coyote might not tell the full story.There is also a pretty clear rivalry between Reynardine and Ysengrin, but he is also fencing (at least words) with Coyote 283. Reynardine and AnnieThis will of course come down to the take-over scene 55 but first let's look at Reynardine later on. He *does* care for Annie. Not only by saving life (e.g. 285) her, but also in many other instances. Take 215 and 216 for example. He is perfectly happy mocking her, but as soon as he realised she seriously needs help, his behaviour changes drastically from being mocking to that of a guardian. This is not simply due to her commanding him (unless her command over him is ridiculously powerful, enough to make him suggest on his own ways in which he can be useful to here. That would be a quite boring concept for taking his entire free will away). Together with the many references to Reynardine and Surma, it is clear that Reynardine does not want to harm Annie, does try to protect her and cares for her. Maybe initially only because she is the daughter of Surma, but later, quite likely, also for her own sake. Back to the take-over scene. If he cares for her later, why does he try to take her over? Possible explanations: A: He did want to take her over. A1: He does care for her, but cares for his own freedom even more. Not totally outlandish, since it plays well with Reynardine being selfish. However note that he did feel a lot for Surma.A2: He did want to take her over to achieve magical XYZ. The deus ex machina option. Something along the lines of "if he takes over her body, world peace&harmony will be achieved" or "Surma wanted to give up her body for him to use in awesome ritual to achieve world peace&harmony, but they were interrupted and now he is using Annie instead". While definitely an option, I don't like it.B: He did not want to take her over. B1: He calculated that Eglamore would stop him. A very strong one. He is known as a trickster, he must have known about Eglamore's ability to stop him, he noticed the wolf before and he needed a distraction. My personal bet is on this one.B2: He tried to take her over out of temporary rage. When thinking about it calmly, he would not hurt her, but in the heat of the moment (being imprisoned, hurt and ridiculed) he jumps at her.ConclusionReynardine is a trickster and likes to play around. However he knows when matters require him to become serious. While not especially talkative about himself, he is a person Annie can rely on. He regards her as a person to be guarded and from a position of being wiser and more powerful (together with him loving his freedom, this is why he does not enjoy her using her ownership power on him). The thing to watch out for is a conflict between him and Ysengrin, which might lead him to forget about other priorities. Meta-analysisIn my opinion, meta analysis is kind of lame and takes away from the enjoyment of the story. GC is all about emersing in a fantasy world, not about comparing it to other pieces of literature. So read this bit only if you really want to.Reynardine is filling a very typical role in the comic, the "grumpy gangster" who, while being presented as dangerous, is not really doing any harm (at least in the present) and is instead helping the main character. The fun of the role stems from the contraposition of being presented as "bad"/"dangerous" and doing "good" at the same time. It also leaves the warm glow of seeing a bad guy transform into a good guy over time. He is a figurative father for the main character. If you have ever seen a film with a low key gangster suddenly caring for a small child (and not really doing anything extraordinary bad at all during the film, except the first few minutes), this is him. In your typically hollywood movie, you'd see him die (heroically giving up his life for the main char) close to the end of the film.
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Post by warrl on Feb 13, 2009 0:24:26 GMT
Pretty good, Xeeron.
I would add that - whether Rey originally intended to take over Annie or not - if Rey DID take over Annie, either earlier or now, it would not be long before he'd be either destroyed or locked up again. Perhaps in pain again.
In Annie's doll, on the other hand...
He has friends who will stand up for him;
Those who would capture and imprison him find it more effective to leave him be;
He has a fair amount of freedom, subject to rules that mostly amount to teaching him courtesy and respect;
He's learning a fair amount of interesting stuff;
His basic form is nearly immune to physical distress;
He can shapeshift to at least two other useful forms.
Not a bad deal, all considered.
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Post by todd on Feb 15, 2009 13:16:24 GMT
Of course, as I've mentioned elsewhere, the big reason why I don't think we'll see Reynardine taking Annie over is that it would automatically end the story (or at least, require a lot of major changes which, unless handled with precise care, could cause some real problems for it). There are a few possible ways of getting around that, of course:
1. Find a loophole to the rule that when Reynardine possesses someone, that person dies (which, alas, was discovered too late to save his previous victims).
2. Have Annie become a ghost like Jeanne and Martin, unable to move on until she completes her task of finding out exactly what's going on in the Court (or maybe having Kat build a robot body for her which looks just like her original one, for the ghost to move into - which just might be what Jones is, incidentally).
3. Have a protagonist shift with someone else (most likely Kat) as the new lead, though some of the plot threads (such as Jones' medium classes and Anthony's disappearance) might be harder to manage with Annie gone. And it would raise some questions about the narrator at the start of the story being written out halfway through (unless Annie's narrating from the afterlife, and observes the events after her death from there). Though it could add extra suspense to the webcomic: if the original lead can die well before it's over, then nothing can be certain any more.
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Post by sebastian on Feb 15, 2009 22:42:29 GMT
I'm with Rasselas on this one. Reynardine is a trickster. If he had possessed Annie, he would not have been able to hide. I think that he tried to escape by taking the wolf body, but that he did not realise that he would be a slave to the owner of the toy. In the world of Gunnerkrigg I am sure that all animals and humans are free. I do not recall any reference to someone having a pet dog, for example. I can also imagine that Reynardine wanted to take a lifeless body so that he would not have to kill after his next 'jump'. Would his 'original' body still be in the Forest? About the "slave of Annie" thing let me throw in another hypothesis, what if he is lying? what if it is just so he have an excuse to stay near Annie? After all I think Rey would be cunning enough to come up with something so convoluted even if it mean to suffer all those humiliations. Do we have some external confirmation about what Reynardine said? I remember Eglamore say something about it, but how certain they were about it? |
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Post by Xeeron on Feb 15, 2009 22:57:50 GMT
About the "slave of Annie" thing let me throw in another hypothesis, what if he is lying? what if it is just so he have an excuse to stay near Annie? After all I think Rey would be cunning enough to come up with something so convoluted even if it mean to suffer all those humiliations. Do we have some external confirmation about what Reynardine said? I remember Eglamore say something about it, but how certain they were about it? - Xeeron |
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Post by sebastian on Feb 15, 2009 22:58:17 GMT
About the relationship between Surma and Reynardine, did you considered how peculiar was for Surma to make a Reynardine-shaped doll for her daughter? I doubt she would have done it if she hated or distrusted him in any form.
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Post by sebastian on Feb 15, 2009 23:02:47 GMT
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Post by todd on Feb 15, 2009 23:24:09 GMT
The doll was shaped like a wolf, not a fox (the form that Surma would have known Reynardine in, back when he was Renard). It wouldn't have been "Reynardine-shaped" until after it became his new home. I doubt that Surma had the trickster fox in mind when she made it.
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Post by Rasselas on Feb 15, 2009 23:56:29 GMT
It's still interesting that she'd make a wolf toy for her daughter, it didn't occur to me until you mentioned it here. Speculization gears in overdrive.
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