[2961] "Zimmy isn't a machine!"

[Timberwere]

Annie telling it like it is.

[imaginaryfriend]

I wonder if Omega is projecting her own desired/fated outcome of device status onto Zeta, thus deciding it's no big deal even if Zeta doesn't want it if it enables a lot of other stuff that Omega wants, or if Omega just doesn't care about the whole self-determination and human rights thing.

[edit] At the risk of being ham-handed, what I'm saying is that if Omega has a mechanistic view of the universe then she may consider free will an illusion or an irrelevance, and negative rights as negotiable for sufficiently preferred ends. [/edit]

[Gemini Jim]

I can't tell if Meg is becoming evil, or just "a jerk, perhaps..."


Seriously, she's been treading a very fine line for a while now. Although, she could also be deliberately pushing Annie's buttons (for what purpose, I don't know). There's a fiery inferno just waiting to come out.


Technically speaking, Meg never actually said that Zimmy was a machine, just figuratively speaking; and she's been very, very blunt about it.


Incidentally, Annie is looking very birdlike - like an angry, long-legged, squawking cartoon flamingo or something - in the last panel. If they are still in the Distortion/ able to be affected by the Distortion, losing her composure like that might be a bad thing....

[bicarbonat]

Kat is supposed to use* Omega to kill Zimmy – if Omega truly doesn't want to stop being the dead goose, she's in a real spot.

A prognostication about you, a prognosticator, and how someone will use you to destroy your ticket to freedom. I'd be pissed.

* Meanwhile, Kat's keeping busy.

[worldsong]

Technically we're all machines, but sapient machines are still the best you've got when it comes to a primary axis for morality.

It does look like Omega would rather render Zeta a non-person, which is hardly surprising given that her goal of living an actual life relies on it.

That is, unless there's another level to her plan which she isn't sharing.

Barring that, Omega isn't just someone who'd stay in Omelas, she helped create the place.

[laaaa]

Keep in mind that Zimmy said "they won't like what I'm going to do". She will RETALIATE.
It's likely she'll turn the distortion into something so horrible even Omega will be all "whoops! Changed my mind, let's call this off" and give Zimmy's location to Kat, allowing for Kat to kill her.

[tibert]

Annie "Zimmy isn't a machine!"
Omega "If it will calm you down, I can show her the ropes."

[rafk]

I suppose the comeback to the obvious is that the Court don't need the Zimmyote ether generation to remain stable all that long. Once all the loyal and non etherically gifted peons - I mean, loyal court members - are across the ocean, they will actively want the star ocean to shut down anyway.

Also at this point I'm practically expecting to see Annie or Omega in passing hanging a literal lampshade on a lamp with Omelas written on it.

[blahzor]

Jun 28, 2024 7:21:14 GMT blahzor said:

chaos plus selective chaos = stablity

Bam

[silicondream]

Jul 1, 2024 8:53:04 GMT tibert said:

Annie "Zimmy isn't a machine!"
Omega "If it will calm you down, I can show her the ropes."

All the New People descend from the bus!

[Angry Robot]

Attention Tom, typo alert: in panel 3, "dissipates" is mis-spelled "disspates". #crowdsourcedproofreading

[Corvo]

Yeah! That's Jones' job!

[Per]

Jul 1, 2024 11:27:16 GMT Angry Robot said:

Attention Tom, typo alert: in panel 3, "dissipates" is mis-spelled "disspates". #crowdsourcedproofreading

("Catylist" remains unfixed in 2952.)

[morrahadesigns]

Omega continues to be a stone cold b*tch.

[Sky Schemer]

"Also, you suck, lady!"

[Gemminie]

So on the previous page, Annie's assuming Zimmy's in torment, while Omega's assuming the distortion is great for everyone*, so it's worth it for one person to be in Schrödinger's torment as long as things are great for everyone else.

On this page, Omega continues: not only is the distortion allowing the Court to embark on their great voyage, it benefits everyone.

Tony has been listening and makes some statements about how the power is flowing here: A "tremendous" source of power is required here, because it's powering the distortion, which in turn is powering the star ocean**, which then basically just throws that power into space. Omega says that he's correct and that it works because Zimmy's an etheric generator and Coyote's stabilizing her.

Annie objects, because Omega's talking about Zimmy as if she's a machine, which she isn't.

* Except Sam. Oh, and his death proves that the distortion can be deadly. And that means he's just the only death we know about. Tony just said there are lots of people in the central Court whom he can't contact. Maybe they're fine, maybe they're all dead, or maybe somewhere in between.

** Once the Court leaves, they plan to shut down the star ocean. Presumably there'll be a lot less power demand at that point. Nobody's talking about what happens then.

Is it likely that Zimmy's suffering? Well, let's see. She needs Gamma around as a heat sink of sorts at all times except when Annie sort-of-takes-over for short times ... and except for when it rains. Rain (though natural rain only) apparently contains natural Ether, and that alleviates Zimmy's distress. How this works has never been made fully clear. The last time Zimmy was forced to create a distortion she was annoyed, but as we didn't see her during the bulk of it, it's not clear how it affected her; we only saw her as the distortion was collapsing. All we know is that she needed help to walk. But of course that didn't involve Coyote or an energy drain this large.

I'm reminding myself that Omega's talking to (1) a person whose life Zimmy literally saved and (2) the person Zimmy saved her from, who now feels intense remorse about what he did and therefore gratitude toward Zimmy for preventing him from doing something terrible. Both Annie and Tony are likely going to be on Zimmy's side in this.

[ctso74]

I'm imagining Meg's retort being "We're all machines" or simply "She is now"

[shadow3]

The plot twist might be that Omega actually died a long time ago, and what was left is an impostor who intends to send the traveling Court members into their Other/Outer God tummy.

[storyteller]

Jul 1, 2024 15:19:52 GMT Gemminie said:

On this page, Omega continues: not only is the distortion allowing the Court to embark on their great voyage, it benefits everyone.

Tony has been listening and makes some statements about how the power is flowing here: A "tremendous" source of power is required here, because it's powering the distortion, which in turn is powering the star ocean**, which then basically just throws that power into space. Omega says that he's correct and that it works because Zimmy's an etheric generator and Coyote's stabilizing her.

Annie objects, because Omega's talking about Zimmy as if she's a machine, which she isn't.

* Except Sam. Oh, and his death proves that the distortion can be deadly. And that means he's just the only death we know about. Tony just said there are lots of people in the central Court whom he can't contact. Maybe they're fine, maybe they're all dead, or maybe somewhere in between.

** Once the Court leaves, they plan to shut down the star ocean. Presumably there'll be a lot less power demand at that point. Nobody's talking about what happens then.

Is it likely that Zimmy's suffering? Well, let's see. She needs Gamma around as a heat sink of sorts at all times except when Annie sort-of-takes-over for short times ... and except for when it rains. Rain (though natural rain only) apparently contains natural Ether, and that alleviates Zimmy's distress. How this works has never been made fully clear. The last time Zimmy was forced to create a distortion she was annoyed, but as we didn't see her during the bulk of it, it's not clear how it affected her; we only saw her as the distortion was collapsing. All we know is that she needed help to walk. But of course that didn't involve Coyote or an energy drain this large.

I'm reminding myself that Omega's talking to (1) a person whose life Zimmy literally saved and (2) the person Zimmy saved her from, who now feels intense remorse about what he did and therefore gratitude toward Zimmy for preventing him from doing something terrible. Both Annie and Tony are likely going to be on Zimmy's side in this.

So here's the thing with Zimmy that's always been a thing.

She always treated her distortions as deadly. Annie asking about control so long ago immediately angered her, and we've seen with the Seraphs that other people using Zimmy goes haywire.

The kids resolved the situation but everyone was moving quickly to get Zimmy under rain on the cruise ship for a reason.

Zimmy can barely control her own powers with support without rainfall. And just - Zimmy honestly works a bit like someone with a condition that's improved but not fixed with medication.

Omega is showing the Court arrogance here in thinking they can use Zimmy's powers when Zimmy herself is quite clear as to the very hard control limit.

I don't think Omega is right on this - and given the exploitation that's always been a factor with the Forest/Chester students at the Court, I don't think thematically the story can let her be right without major collateral.

Jul 1, 2024 8:51:19 GMT laaaa said:

Keep in mind that Zimmy said "they won't like what I'm going to do". She will RETALIATE.
It's likely she'll turn the distortion into something so horrible even Omega will be all "whoops! Changed my mind, let's call this off" and give Zimmy's location to Kat, allowing for Kat to kill her.

I disagree that Zimmy will retaliate. I think that's just a statement that Zimmy's powers are dangerous when it is just Zimmy never mind when she's mixed with Coyote and Loup who are... Well dangerous and unstable. Zimmy is just dangerous and unstable due to her power set - personality wise, she's usually extremely even keeled when not personally panicked or scared.

Seriously Zeta puffs herself up to scare people away but she is personally not malicious, with her worst actions being ignoring Jack and translating incorrectly for Gamma years ago in story.

If there was any weighing towards people not dying before in a distortion it was her - Zimmy does have control when it rains, at least to hit the stop button and we have seen her have short bursts before it goes to pieces. If anything is weighing the odds to people not dying it is her.

Coyote would find it funny and Loup is lashing out, so she's out voted.

Really I'm waiting for the rain now because Zimmy getting to the wheel and what she does is very much what this situation can turn on. With a handy job for our protagonists in getting the rain to happen

[eyemyself]

Jul 1, 2024 17:22:56 GMT storyteller said:

Jul 1, 2024 15:19:52 GMT Gemminie said:

On this page, Omega continues: not only is the distortion allowing the Court to embark on their great voyage, it benefits everyone.

Tony has been listening and makes some statements about how the power is flowing here: A "tremendous" source of power is required here, because it's powering the distortion, which in turn is powering the star ocean**, which then basically just throws that power into space. Omega says that he's correct and that it works because Zimmy's an etheric generator and Coyote's stabilizing her.

Annie objects, because Omega's talking about Zimmy as if she's a machine, which she isn't.

* Except Sam. Oh, and his death proves that the distortion can be deadly. And that means he's just the only death we know about. Tony just said there are lots of people in the central Court whom he can't contact. Maybe they're fine, maybe they're all dead, or maybe somewhere in between.

** Once the Court leaves, they plan to shut down the star ocean. Presumably there'll be a lot less power demand at that point. Nobody's talking about what happens then.

Is it likely that Zimmy's suffering? Well, let's see. She needs Gamma around as a heat sink of sorts at all times except when Annie sort-of-takes-over for short times ... and except for when it rains. Rain (though natural rain only) apparently contains natural Ether, and that alleviates Zimmy's distress. How this works has never been made fully clear. The last time Zimmy was forced to create a distortion she was annoyed, but as we didn't see her during the bulk of it, it's not clear how it affected her; we only saw her as the distortion was collapsing. All we know is that she needed help to walk. But of course that didn't involve Coyote or an energy drain this large.

I'm reminding myself that Omega's talking to (1) a person whose life Zimmy literally saved and (2) the person Zimmy saved her from, who now feels intense remorse about what he did and therefore gratitude toward Zimmy for preventing him from doing something terrible. Both Annie and Tony are likely going to be on Zimmy's side in this.

So here's the thing with Zimmy that's always been a thing.

She always treated her distortions as deadly. Annie asking about control so long ago immediately angered her, and we've seen with the Seraphs that other people using Zimmy goes haywire.

The kids resolved the situation but everyone was moving quickly to get Zimmy under rain on the cruise ship for a reason.

Zimmy can barely control her own powers with support without rainfall. And just - Zimmy honestly works a bit like someone with a condition that's improved but not fixed with medication.

Omega is showing the Court arrogance here in thinking they can use Zimmy's powers when Zimmy herself is quite clear as to the very hard control limit.

I don't think Omega is right on this - and given the exploitation that's always been a factor with the Forest/Chester students at the Court, I don't think thematically the story can let her be right without major collateral.

Jul 1, 2024 8:51:19 GMT laaaa said:

Keep in mind that Zimmy said "they won't like what I'm going to do". She will RETALIATE.
It's likely she'll turn the distortion into something so horrible even Omega will be all "whoops! Changed my mind, let's call this off" and give Zimmy's location to Kat, allowing for Kat to kill her.

I disagree that Zimmy will retaliate. I think that's just a statement that Zimmy's powers are dangerous when it is just Zimmy never mind when she's mixed with Coyote and Loup who are... Well dangerous and unstable. Zimmy is just dangerous and unstable due to her power set - personality wise, she's usually extremely even keeled when not personally panicked or scared.

Seriously Zeta puffs herself up to scare people away but she is personally not malicious, with her worst actions being ignoring Jack and translating incorrectly for Gamma years ago in story.

If there was any weighing towards people not dying before in a distortion it was her - Zimmy does have control when it rains, at least to hit the stop button and we have seen her have short bursts before it goes to pieces. If anything is weighing the odds to people not dying it is her.

Coyote would find it funny and Loup is lashing out, so she's out voted.

Really I'm waiting for the rain now because Zimmy getting to the wheel and what she does is very much what this situation can turn on. With a handy job for our protagonists in getting the rain to happen

I think you've got a really solid read on what's happening here on all counts. We've even seen Zimmy flat out say she doesn't want to be the way she is and would give up her powers to live a normal life if she could.

Another thing I think is important to interpreting the events playing out right now is that we are in an unknown iteration of a very long time loop that first opened when Annie fell off the bridge. We know Kat without Annie went down "a very dark path" and presumably been resetting the time loop over and over again in order to get a more favorable timeline. And according to the Norns, her friendship with Annie is the key to that - and will transform the world. The timeline Omega is familiar with is the one where Annie dies, and, going out on a limb, Kat's very dark path is part of how the court gets what they want. I'm guessing that's where Omega's confidence stems from. She knows Annie is a source of chaos, but she's underestimated how Annie's influence changes Kat's behavior. It's possible Kat killing Zimmy using Omega is the crux of that "very dark path" and the events unfolding right now will lead to a timeline where Annie sways Kat onto an alternate course that disrupts the court's plans, leaves Zimmy alive, and thus changes the world.

[drmemory]

Zimmy might be fine. Not tormented at all. I say this because her biggest problem all along has been that she generates ether and couldn't control it. Rain acted as a damper (pun not intended). Gamma also helped, as did Annie (especially when there were two of them).

So now she's got something drawing away all that excess energy that was making her miserable. She may also be getting additional help from Coyote - like training in how to control it? When Omega says Coyote influence is stabilizing, that may not be passive. But even if it is, she finally has something sucking away all that excess energy that was making her life hell. I bet she's fine right now. Perhaps angry and/or freaked, but probably in much less pain than usual.

Not in torment. Maybe. She'll probably still retaliate though - she does not like being used. Who does?

I really like that Omega is being so forthcoming with info. These are questions we've wondered about for years! Now that we know Zimmy is an ether generator, which wasn't clear before, we know just how special she is. Are there any others around that actually generate ether? Coyote swims in the ether but I don't remember him ever saying he was a source of it, for example. All the courts effort have been to collect or steal ether from places it already is - they obviously can't generate it.

Anyway, if it's as unusual as I suspect for a single person to generate ether, that makes her rather important to the way the world works.

On the bright side, once the court has moved, there is really no reason they'd have to keep the bridge up, so they COULD release it and stop messing with Zimmy and such. But I think they are such control freaks that they won't be thinking that way.

[laaaa]

Jul 1, 2024 17:22:56 GMT storyteller said:

Jul 1, 2024 8:51:19 GMT laaaa said:

Keep in mind that Zimmy said "they won't like what I'm going to do". She will RETALIATE.
It's likely she'll turn the distortion into something so horrible even Omega will be all "whoops! Changed my mind, let's call this off" and give Zimmy's location to Kat, allowing for Kat to kill her.

I disagree that Zimmy will retaliate. I think that's just a statement that Zimmy's powers are dangerous when it is just Zimmy never mind when she's mixed with Coyote and Loup who are... Well dangerous and unstable. Zimmy is just dangerous and unstable due to her power set - personality wise, she's usually extremely even keeled when not personally panicked or scared.

Seriously Zeta puffs herself up to scare people away but she is personally not malicious, with her worst actions being ignoring Jack and translating incorrectly for Gamma years ago in story.

If there was any weighing towards people not dying before in a distortion it was her - Zimmy does have control when it rains, at least to hit the stop button and we have seen her have short bursts before it goes to pieces. If anything is weighing the odds to people not dying it is her.

Coyote would find it funny and Loup is lashing out, so she's out voted.

Really I'm waiting for the rain now because Zimmy getting to the wheel and what she does is very much what this situation can turn on. With a handy job for our protagonists in getting the rain to happen

I didn't mean "retaliate" as in revenge, but as in self-defense. In a I'll-wreck-everything-to-survive-and-keep-Gamma-safe way. As in, her not dealing with this problem as a passive character, but trying to break free. And considering how terrified and angry she might currently be, things are likely to go ugly.

[ophidiophile]

If Coyote provides stability for Zimmy, does that mean that Zimmy is providing Coyote with power? Maybe a lot more power than everyone is used to? It doesn't take long for Coyote to get bored, so I think the distortion is going to get weirder and more dangerous as he starts flexing his creativity. Maybe that's where Kat steps in and stops them.
Thanks to bicarbonat for pointing that out, though the conversation starts at www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2726. Also, Zimmy seems to be able to see/predict the future, like Omega. I got the impression, though, that Zimmy has other things on her mind than seeing the future.

[drmemory]

Jul 1, 2024 7:05:41 GMT Timberwere said:

Annie telling it like it is.

How she thinks it is.    Tony and Omega are calmly discussing what the Star Ocean does and how it is powered, and Annie is making assumptions about how it affects Zimmy and freaking out.  She is also ignoring anything not related to her concerns, like if and how the court has helped others over the years they've been doing stuff.

I'm sort of hoping Jack and Sabrina check things out and actually talk to Zimmy, and solve all this w/o Annie doing anything. 

If there is indeed anything that needs to be solved!

[silicondream]

Jul 1, 2024 18:20:54 GMT eyemyself said:

Another thing I think is important to interpreting the events playing out right now is that we are in an unknown iteration of a very long time loop that first opened when Annie fell off the bridge. We know Kat without Annie went down "a very dark path" and presumably been resetting the time loop over and over again in order to get a more favorable timeline. And according to the Norns, her friendship with Annie is the key to that - and will transform the world. The timeline Omega is familiar with is the one where Annie dies, and, going out on a limb, Kat's very dark path is part of how the court gets what they want. I'm guessing that's where Omega's confidence stems from. She knows Annie is a source of chaos, but she's underestimated how Annie's influence changes Kat's behavior. It's possible Kat killing Zimmy using Omega is the crux of that "very dark path" and the events unfolding right now will lead to a timeline where Annie sways Kat onto an alternate course that disrupts the court's plans, leaves Zimmy alive, and thus changes the world.

While I disagree with the "time loop reset" part--I think that was just Kat's hypothesis about the twin Annies based off what Clippy said, and it turned out to be unnecessary because the whole thing was actually a causal loop--I think this does help to explain Zimmy's paranoia toward Kat. 

In an Annie-less timeline, not only would Kat go down her dark path, but Zimmy herself would be much more dangerous.  She would be even more isolated from the rest of the Court, even more manipulative toward Gamma (Annie could only point out Zimmy's gaslighting to her because she spoke Polish), and her distortions would hurt more people like Jack and she'd be less able to fix them.  Gamma also wouldn't have Annie to support her heat-sink role and let her get some rest when necessary, so she'd burn out faster and Zimmy would go further off the rails.

Under those circumstances, a darkened and Court-conformist Kat could easily see Zimmy as a useful machine at best, and a serious threat at worst.  Zimmy might be that timeline's Loup.

*EDIT* This might also be connected to the resemblance between Omega and Zimmy.  Perhaps Zimmy has expanded awareness like Omega, but her awareness is skewed toward the worst possible timelines, so it's less accurate and more pessimistic.

[blahzor]

If Zimmy retaliates it probably wouldn't be controlled. Or simply allowing the chaos happen and not making a effort to reach Gamma or Annie for a bit

[Hatredman]

My tuppence:

1. Annie is predicted (by Coyote himsef) to kill him with the tooth. And Kat would kill Zimmy. Zimmy herself realized both things. Both are yet to happen. None of this is being considered in the past few chapters.
   
2. They are burning ether, which means deleting huge portions of the "Souls Database". Not only they are leaving to another planet, but are also "disinfecting" the Earth. 

Given those, I can think of two plausible outcomes. WHAT IF...

A. They (Scooby Gang) can't reach Zimmy, she depletes all of the ether and becomes a  "normal girl" - it would be actually good for her. Forest creatures be damned. 

   OR

B. The motivation to kill both Zimmy and Coyote is not for petty personal fears, but for the greater good: tho save the Ether, the Forest and all etheric creatures.


Also, as others have said, it's rather likely that the whole "other planet" is an illusion.

EDIT: numbered lists don't work on the mobile version of the forum. Bummer.

[King Mir]

Jul 1, 2024 7:23:37 GMT Gemini Jim said:

Technically speaking, Meg never actually said that Zimmy was a machine, just figuratively speaking; and she's been very, very blunt about it.

Saying someone is a generator is calling them a machine. That's pretty literal to me.

[pyradonis]

Jul 1, 2024 15:19:52 GMT Gemminie said:

I'm reminding myself that Omega's talking to (1) a person whose life Zimmy literally saved and (2) the person Zimmy saved her from, who now feels intense remorse about what he did and therefore gratitude toward Zimmy for preventing him from doing something terrible. Both Annie and Tony are likely going to be on Zimmy's side in this.

While Tony was infinitely grateful "that... thing interfered", I doubt he ever learned it was Zimmy. I also don't think Annie knows, TBH. We as readers know it, but we were following Zimmy's POV in "Divine", and while Annie did hear Tony's confession about his epic fail, she had no possibility to glean from what he said that it was Zimmy who saved her. Kat believed she just had a weird dream about Zimmy while Annie was unconscious. [edit]And Zimmy doesn't want anyone to know she was there.[/edit] Unless Annie talked to Tony about this incident and he described the "thing", I believe no one except Zimmy and Gamma knows what had exactly happened.

[Gemminie]

Jul 3, 2024 10:54:10 GMT pyradonis said:

Jul 1, 2024 15:19:52 GMT Gemminie said:

I'm reminding myself that Omega's talking to (1) a person whose life Zimmy literally saved and (2) the person Zimmy saved her from, who now feels intense remorse about what he did and therefore gratitude toward Zimmy for preventing him from doing something terrible. Both Annie and Tony are likely going to be on Zimmy's side in this.

While Tony was infinitely grateful "that... thing interfered", I doubt he ever learned it was Zimmy. I also don't think Annie knows, TBH. We as readers know it, but we were following Zimmy's POV in "Divine", and while Annie did hear Tony's confession about his epic fail, she had no possibility to glean from what he said that it was Zimmy who saved her. Kat believed she just had a weird dream about Zimmy while Annie was unconscious. [edit]And Zimmy doesn't want anyone to know she was there.[/edit] Unless Annie talked to Tony about this incident and he described the "thing", I believe no one except Zimmy and Gamma knows what had exactly happened.

Although that's a good point, Kat was there, and as Annie's best friend she probably told Annie what she'd seen. But who knows; maybe not. She might have just considered it a weird dream. Then again, she might still have told Annie about the dream. But either way we don't know what Kat told Annie about it. And then of course there's the whole question of whether Annie in turn told her dad about it. So yes, you have a good point.