[2960] "It's real as long as it remains."

[mglvna]

I am now considering the possibility that the "Kat will kill Zimmy" prediction is actually some form of mercy kill--Omega or someone does something that prevents the distortion from ending, leaving Zimmy trapped in suffering, and well, only one way left to end the illusion...

[basser]

Jun 28, 2024 14:47:43 GMT mglvna said:

I am now considering the possibility that the "Kat will kill Zimmy" prediction is actually some form of mercy kill--Omega or someone does something that prevents the distortion from ending, leaving Zimmy trapped in suffering, and well, only one way left to end the illusion...

Why Don't We Just Kill the Kid in the Omelas Hole

[silicondream]

Jun 28, 2024 14:13:01 GMT linkzeldi said:

It's the flaw of utilitarian logic, you can see saving one hundred people is justified by sacrificing one person, but it's different if you're the one being sacrificed.

That's not so much a logical flaw as garden-variety hypocrisy. There are lots of ethical decisions that are much easier to recommend for someone else than to follow through on yourself.

Personally, I'd say this is more of a weakness in the Golden Rule. "Do as you would be done by" doesn't always lead to social harmony if people don't all have the same preferences for how to be treated.

Jun 28, 2024 14:10:19 GMT ctso74 said:

Now I'm wondering, how much of Meg's bluntness is from severe lack of socializing vs psychopathy?

She doesn't strike me as a psychopath at all. She has strong emotional connections with a few other people, doesn't appear to be deliberately cruel, and has decent impulse control.

Omega's very confident about her choices, including ethical choices, but that's not inherently pathological. It's not even surprising, given her age, wealth of information, and precognitive powers. She very rarely has to make snap decisions.

Jun 28, 2024 14:47:43 GMT mglvna said:

I am now considering the possibility that the "Kat will kill Zimmy" prediction is actually some form of mercy kill--Omega or someone does something that prevents the distortion from ending, leaving Zimmy trapped in suffering, and well, only one way left to end the illusion...

It's also possible that they'll free Zimmy by depowering her, which the current/past her perceives as death because her precognition ends at that point.

Of course, given Zimmy's paranoia and delusions of reference, almost any future act of violence toward anybody could be reinterpreted as someone killing her. She's always had a tendency to absorb other people's traumas.

[basser]

You know now that I'm reading that story again I would be delighted if all the post-apocalyptic stuff in the intermission pages with Tom and Tea is actually the end result of killing the kid in the Court hole.

[laaaa]

I was thinking about how they should set Omega on fire (half joking, half NOT) and then I remembered she can currently teleport herself ANYWHERE at a moment's thought and they'll have no idea where she is but she knows more or less where EVERYTHING is and THIS WILL BE TRICKY GUYS. DEALING WITH HER WILL BE VERY TRICKY.

[crater]

The worse part is Omega is talking to Annie, a medium, someone who could probably take Zimmy's place in the Zimmy Hole.

[Gemini Jim]

Is Tony's house (and the Star Ocean, for that matter) outside the Distortion? Meg in panel 3 says "you saw what it was like inside." Not present tense.

Everything looks normal, but that doesn't prove anything. Of course, I've assumed that Meg needs to be inside the Distortion, but maybe she just needs the Distortion to be up and running.

(Or maybe she doesn't need the Distortion at all, and she just hates Zimmy that much? She's been observing everything, maybe Zimmy has a nails-on-a-blackboard feel to her.)

[ezpak]

Jun 28, 2024 16:14:37 GMT basser said:

Jun 28, 2024 14:47:43 GMT mglvna said:

I am now considering the possibility that the "Kat will kill Zimmy" prediction is actually some form of mercy kill--Omega or someone does something that prevents the distortion from ending, leaving Zimmy trapped in suffering, and well, only one way left to end the illusion...

Why Don't We Just Kill the Kid in the Omelas Hole

Just spent the last 15 minutes reading this excellent story.

[drmemory]

Annie is the medium of the forest. Smitty is the medium of the court (though we haven't seen him lately).

Who is the medium of the current place, where the boundary between the forest and the court has been destroyed by Loup?

If the distortion persists, will it get a medium as well? Or is "medium of X" an obsolete concept?

I suspect this is related to the "who is in charge now" question, as well as "who will be in charge of the court once the ones who don't like the ether all leave". If Aata and others remain, will there still be an official court? What about now, is there one now?

[drmemory]

Totally different question - why does Annie think Zimmy is in torment? Nobody has seen Zimmy nor talked to her since this all started. For all we know she could be fine.

[Gemminie]

After showing no concern for Zimmy's welfare because the needs of the many the one outweigh the needs of the one, Omega opines that the distortion that Coyote and Zimmy have made seems very stable – seems. Omega thinks it could last indefinitely, and that within it, people can imagine whatever places they like. Annie counters that it's all illusion, not real, but Omega believes that it's real as long as the distortion lasts. Annie believes Zimmy is in torment as long as the distortion lasts. Omega is unconcerned.

First of all, Zimmy is mortal. Unless she's somehow getting some kind of immortality from having her Ether whatevers mixed up with Coyote's, the distortion has a maximum lifespan of Zimmy's lifespan. What's more, yes, we did see what it was like inside, and what one person imagined was deadly to another person. And they didn't stick around long enough for those spider monsters to harm anyone, but they didn't look friendly. It's not a rose garden in there for everyone. People can die.

However, Annie's assuming that Zimmy's in torment in there, and that's also something we don't know. Maybe for Zimmy it's just another day. Maybe this is actually better than usual for her. The point is that we don't know, and until we do, we can't assume things are either terrible or great for her. But: if things are terrible, it would be unethical not to try to ameliorate them. If things are great, or more or less the same, then fine, leave her alone. Oh, by the way, if her life is a living hell now, that's likely to shorten her lifespan and thus the lifespan of the distortion, unless of course Coyote's power is somehow making her immortal.

I reiterate that the Court has clearly set things up to go to another planet never to return, cutting themselves off from the Ether and arranging for everyone who remains behind to forget they ever existed. (I see no reason to assume that this wouldn't include Omega.) They claim they want to make things better for the human race, but with no connection to the Ether, are they going to be able to come back, even if they want to? Without any evidence that they've made any plan to return, they therefore want to make things better for the part of the human race that is them, and screw everyone else. They've taken what they needed from Ether-sensitive individuals, and now they're dropping them like yesterday's used Kleenex. Once they've left, we've learned, they plan to shut down the star ocean, meaning that it will stop draining Ether from the distortion, so the coastal area won't be free of distortion effects anymore, and who knows what happens then? They wanted to drain Coyote's energy for this, so their trip could also shut the distortion down when they leave.

There are just too many unknowns for Omega's sanguine certainty that we're seeing here. Is she truly that oblivious? Maybe this is what happens to someone who's used to having Knowledge of Everything but now doesn't: maybe it seems great not to know everything, but they're not used to terrible things sneaking up on them unforeseen and don't know what that's like.

[King Mir]

Jun 28, 2024 7:11:45 GMT laaaa said:

All in favor of punching Omega say "aye"

Nay, let's not do violence to people just because we disagree with. It seems Omega is a utilitarian, which must come naturally to her since she has a unique ability to calculate utility, her literally being a computer.

[Geekette]

So I have a question - how does the distortion handle intrusive thoughts?


Because - and this isn't the only scenario, its just its the really obvious example - Zimmy's said that Kat's going to kill her. Zimmy and Kat both know that's what Zimmy thinks, so if Zimmy's already considered it a foregone conclusion its all on Kat to not make it happen.
In this distorted place, what's stopping murder from being as simple as Kat (being a direct-shooting problem solver) just thinking "Maybe it would be kinder to put her out of her misery than stay like this"? Does it actually matter whether she really believes and agrees with it, if the the thought comes at the right time?

[csj]

How long before you *calibrate* her face?

[silicondream]

Jun 28, 2024 22:48:43 GMT Geekette said:

So I have a question - how does the distortion handle intrusive thoughts?


Because - and this isn't the only scenario, its just its the really obvious example - Zimmy's said that Kat's going to kill her. Zimmy and Kat both know that's what Zimmy thinks, so if Zimmy's already considered it a foregone conclusion its all on Kat to not make it happen.
In this distorted place, what's stopping murder from being as simple as Kat (being a direct-shooting problem solver) just thinking "Maybe it would be kinder to put her out of her misery than stay like this"? Does it actually matter whether she really believes and agrees with it, if the the thought comes at the right time?

Likewise, what's stopping suicide from being as simple as Zimmy thinking "Kat's gonna kill me" and the distortion forcing it to happen?

[mindset]

Jun 28, 2024 18:53:50 GMT Gemini Jim said:

Is Tony's house (and the Star Ocean, for that matter) outside the Distortion? Meg in panel 3 says "you saw what it was like inside." Not present tense.

Everything looks normal, but that doesn't prove anything. Of course, I've assumed that Meg needs to be inside the Distortion, but maybe she just needs the Distortion to be up and running.

They're on the outskirts of the distortion, where the Star Ocean is sucking up ether, so it's not as distorted there. "Inside" = closer to the center of the distortion, where the ether is stronger.

[Corvo]

~ 45 chapters later, when they finally manage to separate Zimmy from Coyote/Loup ~
Zimmy: What?! Why did you do that, it was great in there! I had as many Gammas as I wanted!! PUT ME BACK INSIDE! ~ trying to enter Coyote's mouth ~

[imaginaryfriend]

Jun 28, 2024 22:48:43 GMT Geekette said:

So I have a question - how does the distortion handle intrusive thoughts? Because - and this isn't the only scenario, its just its the really obvious example - Zimmy's said that Kat's going to kill her. Zimmy and Kat both know that's what Zimmy thinks, so if Zimmy's already considered it a foregone conclusion its all on Kat to not make it happen.
In this distorted place, what's stopping murder from being as simple as Kat (being a direct-shooting problem solver) just thinking "Maybe it would be kinder to put her out of her misery than stay like this"? Does it actually matter whether she really believes and agrees with it, if the the thought comes at the right time?

I think it's not just thought that makes things happen in the distortion, it's feelings and memory (or memories and memories of feelings). There needs to be enough continuity for the minds involved to fail to reject what's happening. So for example if Antimony and Paz are walking across the Annan bridge and Paz has an intrusive thought about kicking Antimony off the bridge, it doesn't just happen of its own accord. Paz either restrains herself and nothing happens or she goes for it and I guess everybody rolls initiative. On the other hand, say Paz remembers how very excited she felt when she watched Han, Chewie, Luke and Leia fall down the garbage chute and wind up in the compactor. If she's able to go there her feelings may be able to drag Antimony there with her if Antimony is caught unaware; once there they can maybe play out the scenario to the point of opening the door (probably via calling Kat to work hack-magic) but then should Paz close the door and reactivate the compactor before Antimony gets out, Antimony is in trouble. She would have to reopen the door, shut the compactor down again, or escape by changing scenes... or else get squished.

However, Paz isn't in the distortion because no matter how powerful Kat gets and how much Kat (who is in the distortion) wants to see her, Kat knows Paz isn't in the distortion. Should a Noob accidentally rearrange things in the lab the way that Paz used to, causing Kat to expect to see Kat Paz even for a millisecond, then Paz might be there. If it is the real Paz or another Paz remains to be seen, though.

Theoretically, pretty much anything's possible in the distortion. The level of what is practically possible for humans in the distortion is an open question. People who want to manipulate things would have to fight their own... continuity, sanity, object permanence? Things someone knows they can do, they can do. The trick is to get to the point where you can then do the thing while ignoring anything that would prevent you from succeeding. Say you remember a candy store you were excited to visit as a kid. You could absolutely visit it in the distortion, but you couldn't run around stuffing candies in your mouth without the store employees catching you and kicking you out unless you could fail to remember the employees being there. If you can do that, then not only can you go wild in the candy you can also clean out the cash register. Once you figure out that trick you can do pretty much whatever you want.

Last thing: This applies to the typical person. Non-typical people will have different experiences. People with etheric mojo probably get their way a little easier. They not only have a higher base ether level but they've also got one or more additional things they can do, so there's more ways to get things they want. They're probably more able to be mentally flexible about etheric stuff on average. The normies are probably less likely to be flexible but may have non-typical minds, and I'm not strictly talking about illness or disorder here. Say somebody's stuck on their highschool sweetheart(s) and think about them multiple times per day every day of their life. In the distortion they'd be either bwipping to or bwipping in a sweetheart whenever cued up to do so until they learn how to not do that... assuming they don't want that.

Jun 28, 2024 16:58:25 GMT basser said:

You know now that I'm reading that story again I would be delighted if all the post-apocalyptic stuff in the intermission pages with Tom and Tea is actually the end result of killing the kid in the Court hole.

For some reason I am picturing Zeta pulling her shirt up over the back of her head and saying, "I AM COURTHOLIO."

[lightshade]

Jun 28, 2024 20:51:29 GMT drmemory said:

Totally different question - why does Annie think Zimmy is in torment? Nobody has seen Zimmy nor talked to her since this all started. For all we know she could be fine.

That's what I'm wondering. Annie's doing a bit of assumption here without having all the facts. For all we know, creating an outside distortion like this is finally what stabilizes Zimmy internally in her own mind, given how it's allowed Omega some peace after so many years of information overload. Chaos outside, order within, that sort of thing, which another way the "death of personality" theory could go as far as Zimmy still living past Kat apparently killing her.

Or maybe she's just munching popcorn while Gamma takes a nap as she watches Loup and Coyote go at it for the fourth round in a row.

[imaginaryfriend]

I don't think Antimony knows what's going on with Zeta. We the readers don't even know if Zeta and Gamma are separated. They might be having the best time of their lives but I think it's reasonable to think they might be in distress and proceed according to that assumption. I'm assuming that's what Antimony is thinking, but I don't know that either.

[drmemory]

Jun 29, 2024 3:24:32 GMT lightshade said:

Jun 28, 2024 20:51:29 GMT drmemory said:

Totally different question - why does Annie think Zimmy is in torment? Nobody has seen Zimmy nor talked to her since this all started. For all we know she could be fine.

That's what I'm wondering. Annie's doing a bit of assumption here without having all the facts. For all we know, creating an outside distortion like this is finally what stabilizes Zimmy internally in her own mind, given how it's allowed Omega some peace after so many years of information overload. Chaos outside, order within, that sort of thing, which another way the "death of personality" theory could go as far as Zimmy still living past Kat apparently killing her.

Or maybe she's just munching popcorn while Gamma takes a nap as she watches Loup and Coyote go at it for the fourth round in a row.

Right, right!  Annie has no evidence for what she said.  Even if she were there with Z when the distortion started, all she would have seen was Zimmy freaked out because Loup and Coyote were right there, fighting.  That does not translate to "and she's been in torment ever since"...  If anything, I'd suspect she might be less stressed right now, given the plentiful power source.  Now it might not be stable long-term, but again, that doesn't necessarily translate to "torment".

The only thing we've seen cause Zimmy any real torment is being separated from Gamma, and again, we have no evidence as to whether that's the case.

Another, related thought - the court re-calibrated the star ocean to suck power from someone else after Coyote eluded them once too many times.  Everyone assumed that it was re-calibrated to take power from Zimmy.  I don't disagree - that is probably true.  The thing is, if Zimmy is powering this huge distortion using Coyote's energy, supplied by Loup and/or Coyote's revenant, would that really hurt Zimmy?  I remember Zimmy saying she can't control the power but I do not recall her ever saying it actually hurt to use it.

I do not believe we've been shown anything that would allow us to conclude that Zimmy is currently being tormented.  Annoyed, yes.  Frightened and/or stressed, perhaps.  But tormented?  That wouldn't have been my guess.

Observation - we saw that the court is continuing with their plan, calmly loading up a ship at the dock, despite the distortion.  I've been assuming that this was happening inside the distortion - Omega certainly still thinks she's inside it!  What we didn't see is a painful-looking energy funnel sucking energy out of Zimmy (i.e. tormenting her).

[bedinsis]

First thought: Omega, please, when Annie found out that Jeanne was trapped in the Annan waters her instinct was to help her. You are omniscient; you should know this.

Second thought: Wait a minute, Annie only found out about Jeanne by surviving the fall into the Annan waters; Omega predicted she would die, she had no idea what would happen if Annie encountered a ghost (that Omega knew of).

Third thought: But then again, shouldn't she still be able to read that Annie does not want to her friend to work as a biological distortion generator for all time?

Fourth thought: Actually, she has been a biological computer for so long with access to all* knowledge for so long that her way of seeing at other people is basically alien. Ironically making her less knowledgeable.

Fifth thought: Annie surviving that fall really was the trigger for a lot of events that vastly changed the court. Her surviving led to Coyote making contact, which eventually led to him to transfer his strength to Ysengrin to ensure his own death, which led the court being invaded.

Sixth thought: Wait a minute, Coyote was a god, yet he was foiled in predicting that his fusion with Ysengrin called Jerrek would end up with Annie, she ended up with Lana (RIP). Is Omega and Coyote each other's equivalents.

Seventh thought: After rereading "Coyote knew this would happen" it appears Coyote had not perfect clairvoyance nor seeking it out, he just knew that "this would lead to that" yet he was foiled. And we know he didn't keep track of everything because it would be boring.

Eighth thought: Then again, his "this would lead to that" could just be a way for him to express his a-lot-closer-to-perfect-clairvoyance-than-not in human terms.

Ninth thought: Wait a minute, the thing that Coyote failed to predict was Jerrek and Lana getting together. The reason he failed to predict that could be that he had no idea the New People would be there (or something else), but psychologically it makes sense if he deemed it outside the realm of possibility that someone would fall in love with Ysengrin. He always belittled him and called him useless and Ysengrin never stood up to him, thereby never having anybody challenging his views. That ought to have gotten to Ysengrin, so when Lana exposed herself as "Yes, I'm in love with you even knowing the real you" it must've struck a chord.

*current inaccuracies aside.

[eyemyself]

Jun 28, 2024 7:34:12 GMT imaginaryfriend said:

Jun 28, 2024 7:31:16 GMT novia said:

why is the chair blue

No idea if it's an error or not but it's only blue in that one panel. Might be the distortion, might be Omega trying to influence things (Antimony in particular).

It seems too deliberate to be an error. My suspicion, we’re not out of the distortion yet and it’s a reflection of Annie’s internal conflict over what Omega is saying. I’m not sure Tony and Rey are real here. Omega just pointed out that the distortion can recreate environments based on memories. No reason that would be restricted to inanimate objects. Annie’s been alone with Omega since they left Shadow and Robot, so if this is still the distortion, this particular bit would be most strongly influenced by the two of them. Omega’s essentially brought Annie to her personal safe space. Her “home” with her two father figures who represent the two aspects of herself. Her human side which is more reserved and drawn to the order of the court and her fire elemental which is wild and drawn to the forest.

I suspect there is more going on here than just the Faustian dilemma. Kat’s apotheosis is still at play. So is Annie’s pact with the guides and and other old powers. They have already expressed concerns about how Kat’s activities are interfering with “the way things work.” This is an even bigger wrinkle in their system and they may have something to say about that.

We also haven’t really resolved the “haven’t been on earth for awhile now” bit about the courts pocket dimension and what happens to it when those who’ve been invited to depart leave for their further shore. The distortion is likely how they’ve rationalized whatever would have happened to those left behind without it. But we know they intend to severe their link when the reach the other shore. That might snap like a rubber band, shattering the distortion regardless of it’s stability.

Omega is painting a very simple picture of a complex system. Coming from someone who personally has a lot at stake in what happens next, that’s awfully suspicious.

[eyemyself]

Jun 28, 2024 7:31:16 GMT novia said:

why is the chair blue

Jun 28, 2024 7:42:40 GMT basser said:

Tony standing awkwardly in the background is such a vibe.

Also we doing Omelas now, I guess? Omega got the suffering child role for a good long while and don't seem too fussed to hand that role off. Good for her.

She and Jeanne both. Jeanne didn’t get to hand it off, though. Although, I suppose in a way she did when she killed Andrew and then Annie cut a deal with the Psychopomps so Parley wouldn’t suffer the loss of her true love.

How many children in holes does the court have, do you think?

[imaginaryfriend]

Jun 29, 2024 10:12:22 GMT eyemyself said:

It seems too deliberate to be an error.

Omega is painting a very simple picture of a complex system. Coming from someone who personally has a lot at stake in what happens next, that’s awfully suspicious.

Agree about Omega's take on the situation. It sounds self-serving, it dismisses Zeta's situation and hand-waves the danger and hardship all the people trapped in the distortion are facing. I'd estimate the danger of this distortion is greater than being lost in the wilderness; a similar position would be saying that castaways can just make shelter and fire if they want so why rescue them. Of course, this could be a negotiating position. Omega could be angling for a new permanent body and Antimony's help getting it (probably via Kat and Anthony) in return for her help untangling the distortion.

The chair is blue in a panel where Omega is making an assertion about what Antimony experienced in the distortion. That may be a representation of her looking into Antimony's past by deducing current Antimony's past causes (as if I remember right Omega can't connect to the ethernet right now and use her limited omniscience).

That said, depending on how the chair was colored it could be a mistake. I've forgotten what tool I was using and tried to drag an image and in so doing accidentally colorfilled a layer now and then, sometimes without noticing, and I'm not very prolific. Actually, I barely draw at all these days.

[todd]

If the chair turning blue was intentional (to suggest local "distortions"), it has one drawback; it's potentially distracting. We wind up focusing on the chair and ignoring what Annie and Omega are saying. (I had a similar feeling about one of the pages where Annie and Jones were discussing Annie's freeing Jeanne and its consequences while passing through the force field, and the way the force field was drawn puzzled so many readers - based on the discussion about that page here - that it got more attention than the conversation itself.

[laaaa]

Jun 28, 2024 22:02:14 GMT King Mir said:

Jun 28, 2024 7:11:45 GMT laaaa said:

All in favor of punching Omega say "aye"

Nay, let's not do violence to people just because we disagree with. It seems Omega is a utilitarian, which must come naturally to her since she has a unique ability to calculate utility, her literally being a computer.

Aaaand we totally bang machines when they're not working properly. ALL IN FAVOR OF PUNCHING OMEGA SAY "AYE"

[Hatredman]

Jun 28, 2024 16:14:37 GMT basser said:

Why Don't We Just Kill the Kid in the Omelas Hole

I didn't know about this Omelas thing until recently, and through this forum. Now I'm obssessed.

[TBeholder]

Jun 28, 2024 16:53:22 GMT silicondream said:

Personally, I'd say this is more of a weakness in the Golden Rule.

I wonder whatever happened to Bob, too.

Jun 28, 2024 16:53:22 GMT silicondream said:

"Do as you would be done by" doesn't always lead to social harmony if people don't all have the same preferences for how to be treated.

And the obvious solution to this being “salami slicing”…

[pyradonis]

Jun 28, 2024 14:47:43 GMT mglvna said:

I am now considering the possibility that the "Kat will kill Zimmy" prediction is actually some form of mercy kill--Omega or someone does something that prevents the distortion from ending, leaving Zimmy trapped in suffering, and well, only one way left to end the illusion...

To be honest, I am mostly considering the possibility that it was BS. Zimmy is not omniscient. I mean, in the same chapter she accused Annie of deliberately leading the Court to her, which was obviously BS.