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Post by arkadi on Jan 1, 2024 8:39:21 GMT
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Post by zbeeblebrox on Jan 1, 2024 9:09:51 GMT
This is exactly the kind of thing that will prompt Kat to be like "fine, I'll simply make them unkillable"
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Post by silicondream on Jan 1, 2024 9:14:09 GMT
It should be possible to create something like the ROTD. Perhaps the New Person souls can even do it without Kat's help; it seems like the ROTD is run entirely by human souls. Given the selflessness of the average NP, I'm sure many of their ghosts would be happy to keep an eye on the living and recruit the souls of the newly dead. The ROTD can probably provide some tips on warding off etheric parasites and predators, too. Mort didn't seem like he had a particularly hazardous afterlife. |
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Post by grahamf on Jan 1, 2024 10:24:19 GMT
Could Robot become the new guide? He's the one that has been by Kat's side the longest and would be more then happy to take on that role if asked. Once Kat figures out what exactly that role is and how to perform it using technology
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Post by bedinsis on Jan 1, 2024 10:35:27 GMT
So does this call for every single New Person to be assigned a tracker if they were to die?
Happy new Years, incidentally.
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Post by blahzor on Jan 1, 2024 11:21:53 GMT
Since she can be anywhere with a computer like thing is...hey NP how about a device implanted in the back of your neck for...reasons
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Post by silicondream on Jan 1, 2024 13:40:09 GMT
So does this call for every single New Person to be assigned a tracker if they were to die? Since she can be anywhere with a computer like thing is...hey NP how about a device implanted in the back of your neck for...reasons Business as usual in the Court, then? It would probably be useful for the NPs to have a smartphone-equivalent anyway, implanted or otherwise. They're pretty naive to a lot of dangers. |
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Post by Per on Jan 1, 2024 13:43:15 GMT
"I'll bet their spiritual well-being on my competence in an unknown field."
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morrahadesigns
Full Member
Skinamarinky dinky-dink. Skinamarinky doo.
Posts: 223
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Post by morrahadesigns on Jan 1, 2024 15:12:36 GMT
"I'll bet their spiritual well-being on my competence in an unknown field." Yep, I foresee Kat developing what is essentially a "secular" afterlife setup for the New People since she can't see into the ether without massive assistance. |
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Post by gpvos on Jan 1, 2024 15:51:34 GMT
Well, so much for finding out when Lana dies.
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Post by drmemory on Jan 1, 2024 17:15:41 GMT
I can't believe I didn't see this before. The Arbiter is indeed a lawyer (it's in the name really), but he also runs or helps run the psychopomp organization.
Some evidence: He took offense when Kat trivialized their role. He knows how it all works. He came here today to make sure the NP had a psychopomp assigned.
I'm still not sure whether this means that it's all one org, with the Arbiter and his contracts at the top, or if the psychopomps existed first and at some point called in (or created?) the Arbiter to settle disputes. Really, I suspect he's higher up than just the psychopomp organization - it seems like the ROTD and the psychopomps are competing organizations, with their roles and responsibilities defined by contracts. Which the Arbiter seems to be in charge of.
That doesn't mean he's at the top of things - there still could be someone actually in charge of all this, with him as the lawyer and enforcement branch. But it also doesn't mean he isn't.
Consider the USG structure. Three branches - executive, legislative, judicial. We haven't seen an executive in Tom's world (unless it is the Arbiter), but he really does seem to be doing both of the other roles. But Tom isn't American, and we're probably seeing a structure patterned after a different country. I don't know much about the GB structure - House of Commons, House of Lords, and a Monarch? We haven't seen a Monarch either...
None of this is all that important AFAIK, just found it interesting. I am curious about whether the psychopomps work for the Arbiter, however. Best guess - no, but they answer to him on anything to do with their contracts. Think "Scary Corporate Lawyer".
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Post by TBeholder on Jan 1, 2024 21:24:04 GMT
It would probably be useful for the NPs to have a smartphone-equivalent anyway, implanted or otherwise. They're pretty naive to a lot of dangers. I find these two phrases contradictory. In particular, considering good old Sudden Death By Staring At GPS Navigator Screen While Crossing Railways Syndrome. |
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Post by eyemyself on Jan 1, 2024 22:29:57 GMT
I can't believe I didn't see this before. The Arbiter is indeed a lawyer (it's in the name really), but he also runs or helps run the psychopomp organization. Some evidence: He took offense when Kat trivialized their role. He knows how it all works. He came here today to make sure the NP had a psychopomp assigned. I'm still not sure whether this means that it's all one org, with the Arbiter and his contracts at the top, or if the psychopomps existed first and at some point called in (or created?) the Arbiter to settle disputes. Really, I suspect he's higher up than just the psychopomp organization - it seems like the ROTD and the psychopomps are competing organizations, with their roles and responsibilities defined by contracts. Which the Arbiter seems to be in charge of. That doesn't mean he's at the top of things - there still could be someone actually in charge of all this, with him as the lawyer and enforcement branch. But it also doesn't mean he isn't. Consider the USG structure. Three branches - executive, legislative, judicial. We haven't seen an executive in Tom's world (unless it is the Arbiter), but he really does seem to be doing both of the other roles. But Tom isn't American, and we're probably seeing a structure patterned after a different country. I don't know much about the GB structure - House of Commons, House of Lords, and a Monarch? We haven't seen a Monarch either... None of this is all that important AFAIK, just found it interesting. I am curious about whether the psychopomps work for the Arbiter, however. Best guess - no, but they answer to him on anything to do with their contracts. Think "Scary Corporate Lawyer". I think you're on to something, but also assigning the arbiter, Saslamel, both more potential power and less actual authority than we've seen evidence of in the text. Saslamel definitely serves an important role re: dispute resolution, but I don't think he has authority of the guides, ROTD, or other mechanisms related to death beyond conflict resolution. And it's seems like he only gets called in for very high level stuff even then, since a lowly caseworker from the ROTD gets called to rule on Mort's case when Jones disputes Ankuo's claim to his spirit and even though Ankuo is an afterlife guide, he abides by the ruling with only minimal protest.    And he didn't intervene at all in Jeanne's case when Annie was squaring off with the afterlife guides.  He only showed up to see what was happening with the arrow until Kat attempted to use it in a way that would breach Annie's ownership contract over Rey. So his authority definitely includes contract negotiations that aren't related to death, such as object ownership and new life.   He's also limited when it comes to situations outside contract law, such as Annie being shifted.  Where, not only does he not have the ability to address it, he's not even clear on who does - since he refers them to temporal affairs, but when we meet the Norns later (in their role with temporal affairs) we find out they can't fix it either.  But Zimmy can and does with minimal effort in find yourself.  Even more interesting, since Coyote/Loup action's are outside the authority of both Salsamel and the Norns, that may mean Zimmy's are as well and that Kat is either on her way to being able to ignore the authority of beings like the arbiter and the Norns or already there and the arbiter/interpreter are thrying to get her under control before she figures that out.   |
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Post by Hatredman on Jan 2, 2024 2:38:19 GMT
...Kat is either on her way to being able to ignore the authority of beings like the arbiter and the Norns or already there and the arbiter/interpreter are thrying to get her under control before she figures that out. I suppose that you are absolutely right. Not only Kat is in her path to became God (I think she's already there), but I might add that: 1. She has the Arrow and know how to use it. 2. She is now aware that their children have souls when they die. 3. Some pages ago, she said that she could not recreate Lana because Lana's mind was lost. Well, now that she knows about souls, not anymore. So I propose that Kat will find a way to reinsert Baldy Sam's soul in another iteration of his body. Similar to what the Cylons did with their reincarnation ships in the reimagined Battlestar Galactica series. The NP will be, by all means, immortal. That would negate the need for an afterlife guide, because their souls would not return to the ether, but to new bodies. In doing so, Goddess Kat will not only have created an unkillable species, but also piss off the Psychopomps, the Arbiter and his smug interpreter, and whoever is the CEO of the ether. And getting Annie off the hook in the process. |
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Post by guntherkrieg on Jan 2, 2024 10:50:39 GMT
Could Robot become the new guide? He's the one that has been by Kat's side the longest and would be more then happy to take on that role if asked. Once Kat figures out what exactly that role is and how to perform it using technology Robot, always fond of hoods and concealing clothing, becomes Uriel, the Angel of Death. |
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Post by guntherkrieg on Jan 2, 2024 10:52:14 GMT
So does this call for every single New Person to be assigned a tracker if they were to die? Since she can be anywhere with a computer like thing is...hey NP how about a device implanted in the back of your neck for...reasons Business as usual in the Court, then? It would probably be useful for the NPs to have a smartphone-equivalent anyway, implanted or otherwise. They're pretty naive to a lot of dangers. Sorry, are you in favour of a literal always-online implant-enabled Nanny State? |
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Post by guntherkrieg on Jan 2, 2024 10:57:55 GMT
So I propose that Kat will find a way to reinsert Baldy Sam's soul in another iteration of his body. Similar to what the Cylons did with their reincarnation ships in the reimagined Battlestar Galactica series. The NP will be, by all means, immortal. That would negate the need for an afterlife guide, because their souls would not return to the ether, but to new bodies. In doing so, Goddess Kat will not only have created an unkillable species, but also piss off the Psychopomps, the Arbiter and his smug interpreter, and whoever is the CEO of the ether. And getting Annie off the hook in the process. The ramifications of this are -- quite frankly -- terrifying, given what we know about the cosmology in the comic. What happens when a human-esque soul doesn't die simply keeps on going, without being "recycled"? Does it keep building up etheric charge/potency? What are the mental effects of that? If Kat goes this route she could unintentionally create a race of walking Ether bombs. Or they could end up like Zimmy, with their Etheric potential leaking out into the surrounding environment. Or perhaps an abundance of Etheric charge causes one to become a god, or godlike. So Kat might not just be on her way to being a god, but might be heading in a direction of becoming an Odin-style All-Mother, Mother of Gods. Or Zeus, if you want to keep the lightning/electric motif. |
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Post by silicondream on Jan 2, 2024 11:19:04 GMT
It would probably be useful for the NPs to have a smartphone-equivalent anyway, implanted or otherwise. They're pretty naive to a lot of dangers. I find these two phrases contradictory. In particular, considering good old Sudden Death By Staring At GPS Navigator Screen While Crossing Railways Syndrome. Wishful thinking, maybe, but I'd hope that the one danger ex-robots aren't naive about is the danger of getting distracted by technology. Even if they are, I think the greater threats right now are their unfamiliarity with Forest/etheric stuff and their difficulty recognizing hostility. There are a lot more nasty monsters than careless drivers in their current vicinity. I think you're on to something, but also assigning the arbiter, Saslamel, both more potential power and less actual authority than we've seen evidence of in the text. Saslamel definitely serves an important role re: dispute resolution, but I don't think he has authority of the guides, ROTD, or other mechanisms related to death beyond conflict resolution. And it's seems like he only gets called in for very high level stuff even then, since a lowly caseworker from the ROTD gets called to rule on Mort's case when Jones disputes Ankuo's claim to his spirit and even though Ankuo is an afterlife guide, he abides by the ruling with only minimal protest. My headcanon is that Saslamel avoids Jones like the plague because a) she's older than him and b) she actually remembers his language. Well, either he or the Norns may have had the power to fix it. They said it's "not our department," but that may have been a matter of "shouldn't" or "don't want to" rather than "can't." (And presumably the Norns knew that Annie would be fixed in the near future anyway.) They are bureaucrats, after all. Or, by showing Annie the conflicts in her own subconscious, she was able to make her…understand. After which Annie fixed herself. We don't really know how much of that was due to Zimmy's raw power, as opposed to having an intimate understanding of Annie and just the right powers to resolve semi-psychological stuff I suppose that you are absolutely right. Not only Kat is in her path to became God (I think she's already there) I think she's still pretty much a smart girl with a chip in her neck. She may have the brilliance and imaginative force to shake the whole ether, but shoot her in the head or give her a stroke and she's done. That may change in the future, but currently she can't just ignore etheric disapproval the way Coyote can. Now if she finishes hacking all the Court's shit, and consolidates and improves on everything they've used against Coyote and Loup…then, maybe. (But I also think the etheric bureaucracy may already be very reluctant to actually kill her, because who the heck knows what Kat's last thoughts would spawn in the Ether.) The Central Etheric Officer? The interesting thing about creating an undying species is that the etheric bureaucracy might have to negotiate with them, which is not something it's used to doing with material beings. For instance, they might have to offer a cause or service that a New Person would be willing to perma-die for. The NPs are pretty selfless and don't seem to have much survival instinct, so I bet many of them could be persuaded. |
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Post by silicondream on Jan 2, 2024 12:26:51 GMT
Business as usual in the Court, then? It would probably be useful for the NPs to have a smartphone-equivalent anyway, implanted or otherwise. They're pretty naive to a lot of dangers. Sorry, are you in favour of a literal always-online implant-enabled Nanny State? Hell yes. Bring on the Federation, please. The NPs, like the robots they used to be, are a highly collectivist culture with relatively little desire for individual privacy. They grew up in a surveillance state, and many of them already had high-speed communications ports in their robot bodies. I think they'd be pretty comfortable with brainphones. Besides, it wouldn't be difficult to design the devices so that they could be temporarily deactivated while using the bathroom or boinking or whatever, but would still go into mortality mode if the owner showed no activity within a set number of days. And if any NP out there is actually eager to go off the grid semi-permanently and promptly get crushed by a Moss Ogre or dissected by the Court, then have their un-Guided soul eaten by demons...well, they can opt out. Dibs on their jumpsuit! What happens when a human-esque soul doesn't die simply keeps on going, without being "recycled"? Does it keep building up etheric charge/potency? What are the mental effects of that? If Kat goes this route she could unintentionally create a race of walking Ether bombs. Or they could end up like Zimmy, with their Etheric potential leaking out into the surrounding environment. Or perhaps an abundance of Etheric charge causes one to become a god, or godlike. Counterpoint: Jeanne's soul was kept trapped for a good long time and Annie's foremothers have passed down the same soul for however many centuries, and neither of them ended up exploding or apotheosizing. Counter-counterpoint: Maybe Jeanne couldn't keep "building up etheric charge" without a living body, and maybe Annie's ancestors have always burned off excess etheric energy by using their powers. |
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Post by blahzor on Jan 2, 2024 12:53:44 GMT
With eyemyse summary Kat seems to be above Norns but below Coyote/Zimmy at the moment. Or since the Norm deal with time they know she will already be above them power wise so give her access above them now rather than later since everything is already now
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morrahadesigns
Full Member
Skinamarinky dinky-dink. Skinamarinky doo.
Posts: 223
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Post by morrahadesigns on Jan 2, 2024 13:57:36 GMT
I can't believe I didn't see this before. The Arbiter is indeed a lawyer (it's in the name really), but he also runs or helps run the psychopomp organization. Some evidence: He took offense when Kat trivialized their role. He knows how it all works. He came here today to make sure the NP had a psychopomp assigned. I'm still not sure whether this means that it's all one org, with the Arbiter and his contracts at the top, or if the psychopomps existed first and at some point called in (or created?) the Arbiter to settle disputes. Really, I suspect he's higher up than just the psychopomp organization - it seems like the ROTD and the psychopomps are competing organizations, with their roles and responsibilities defined by contracts. Which the Arbiter seems to be in charge of. That doesn't mean he's at the top of things - there still could be someone actually in charge of all this, with him as the lawyer and enforcement branch. But it also doesn't mean he isn't. Consider the USG structure. Three branches - executive, legislative, judicial. We haven't seen an executive in Tom's world (unless it is the Arbiter), but he really does seem to be doing both of the other roles. But Tom isn't American, and we're probably seeing a structure patterned after a different country. I don't know much about the GB structure - House of Commons, House of Lords, and a Monarch? We haven't seen a Monarch either... None of this is all that important AFAIK, just found it interesting. I am curious about whether the psychopomps work for the Arbiter, however. Best guess - no, but they answer to him on anything to do with their contracts. Think "Scary Corporate Lawyer". I think you're on to something, but also assigning the arbiter, Saslamel, both more potential power and less actual authority than we've seen evidence of in the text. Saslamel definitely serves an important role re: dispute resolution, but I don't think he has authority of the guides, ROTD, or other mechanisms related to death beyond conflict resolution. And it's seems like he only gets called in for very high level stuff even then, since a lowly caseworker from the ROTD gets called to rule on Mort's case when Jones disputes Ankuo's claim to his spirit and even though Ankuo is an afterlife guide, he abides by the ruling with only minimal protest. And he didn't intervene at all in Jeanne's case when Annie was squaring off with the afterlife guides. He only showed up to see what was happening with the arrow until Kat attempted to use it in a way that would breach Annie's ownership contract over Rey. So his authority definitely includes contract negotiations that aren't related to death, such as object ownership and new life. He's also limited when it comes to situations outside contract law, such as Annie being shifted. Where, not only does he not have the ability to address it, he's not even clear on who does - since he refers them to temporal affairs, but when we meet the Norns later (in their role with temporal affairs) we find out they can't fix it either. But Zimmy can and does with minimal effort in find yourself. Even more interesting, since Coyote/Loup action's are outside the authority of both Salsamel and the Norns, that may mean Zimmy's are as well and that Kat is either on her way to being able to ignore the authority of beings like the arbiter and the Norns or already there and the arbiter/interpreter are thrying to get her under control before she figures that out. Wow, that's really well thought out. I had forgotten about Jones and Mort. I want to know more about Jones (though I doubt we'll get more than she has already told). |
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Post by ctso74 on Jan 2, 2024 14:32:25 GMT
That response does not seem wise. Very Kat, though.
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Post by drmemory on Jan 2, 2024 17:02:23 GMT
I can't believe I didn't see this before. The Arbiter is indeed a lawyer (it's in the name really), but he also runs or helps run the psychopomp organization. Some evidence: He took offense when Kat trivialized their role. He knows how it all works. He came here today to make sure the NP had a psychopomp assigned. I'm still not sure whether this means that it's all one org, with the Arbiter and his contracts at the top, or if the psychopomps existed first and at some point called in (or created?) the Arbiter to settle disputes. Really, I suspect he's higher up than just the psychopomp organization - it seems like the ROTD and the psychopomps are competing organizations, with their roles and responsibilities defined by contracts. Which the Arbiter seems to be in charge of. That doesn't mean he's at the top of things - there still could be someone actually in charge of all this, with him as the lawyer and enforcement branch. But it also doesn't mean he isn't. Consider the USG structure. Three branches - executive, legislative, judicial. We haven't seen an executive in Tom's world (unless it is the Arbiter), but he really does seem to be doing both of the other roles. But Tom isn't American, and we're probably seeing a structure patterned after a different country. I don't know much about the GB structure - House of Commons, House of Lords, and a Monarch? We haven't seen a Monarch either... None of this is all that important AFAIK, just found it interesting. I am curious about whether the psychopomps work for the Arbiter, however. Best guess - no, but they answer to him on anything to do with their contracts. Think "Scary Corporate Lawyer". I think you're on to something, but also assigning the arbiter, Saslamel, both more potential power and less actual authority than we've seen evidence of in the text. Saslamel definitely serves an important role re: dispute resolution, but I don't think he has authority of the guides, ROTD, or other mechanisms related to death beyond conflict resolution. And it's seems like he only gets called in for very high level stuff even then, since a lowly caseworker from the ROTD gets called to rule on Mort's case when Jones disputes Ankuo's claim to his spirit and even though Ankuo is an afterlife guide, he abides by the ruling with only minimal protest. And he didn't intervene at all in Jeanne's case when Annie was squaring off with the afterlife guides. He only showed up to see what was happening with the arrow until Kat attempted to use it in a way that would breach Annie's ownership contract over Rey. So his authority definitely includes contract negotiations that aren't related to death, such as object ownership and new life. He's also limited when it comes to situations outside contract law, such as Annie being shifted. Where, not only does he not have the ability to address it, he's not even clear on who does - since he refers them to temporal affairs, but when we meet the Norns later (in their role with temporal affairs) we find out they can't fix it either. But Zimmy can and does with minimal effort in find yourself. Even more interesting, since Coyote/Loup action's are outside the authority of both Salsamel and the Norns, that may mean Zimmy's are as well and that Kat is either on her way to being able to ignore the authority of beings like the arbiter and the Norns or already there and the arbiter/interpreter are thrying to get her under control before she figures that out. Very nice job of collecting the relevant events!
One thing I think everyone is forgetting though, is that people (creatures) can lie. I think we're seeing a fair amount of unreliable narrator stuff going on here. Some of these guys are saying what they need to say to have things go the way they want.
For example, the Interpreter said that the Department of Temporal Affairs were the only ones that could help Annie, and then that same Department said they couldn't do anything. One of them or both of them was lying. It seems like a typical bureaucratic lie - passing the buck - rather than a malicious one. Very possible that the Norns knew that Annie's situation would be resolved without their intervention.
Another example, the psychopomps lied when they said they owed Annie nothing. They totally maneuvered her into place to do their jobs for them, then squeezed her into agreeing to do more of the same. I really don't like those guys. They are manipulative and dishonest. For a minute there, I wondered if they would have been forced to heal Smitty if Annie hadn't bought their argument, but then I realized that this is just used car salesman sleaziness, and probably not something covered by their contracts. If anything, they worked Annie around to doing their jobs for them (an unlicensed psychopomp), giving them plausible deniability if things went bad. Also, they clearly were able to heal Smitty, implying Annie would have also been able to do so - if she knew the trade secrets of the psychopomps - and they didn't tell her any of that. Instead, they maneuvered a teenage girl into doing a scary part of their jobs for them, then pressured her into slavery. More or less.
I kinda wish Annie would ask the Interpreter about these events...
Another of the scenes you included was the Jones/Mort thing. It is interesting that the ROTD guy was actually able to take Mort even though Ankou was there, ready to take him. This is a hint as to how the organizations are structured. Either the ROTD is higher up, or that situation was one that fell within their contractually defined area of responsibility. We didn't see the Arbiter at that time because there was no contractual violation, and thus nothing to arbitrate.
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Post by netherdan on Jan 3, 2024 0:00:00 GMT
So does this call for every single New Person to be assigned a tracker if they were to die? Happy new Years, incidentally. Nah, more like an excuse to make a convoluted mechanism to find the deceased NP souls... And then apply it to every other soul in existence just because "it's right there, why not use it?" |
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Post by blahzor on Jan 3, 2024 8:38:39 GMT
I think you're on to something, but also assigning the arbiter, Saslamel, both more potential power and less actual authority than we've seen evidence of in the text. Saslamel definitely serves an important role re: dispute resolution, but I don't think he has authority of the guides, ROTD, or other mechanisms related to death beyond conflict resolution. And it's seems like he only gets called in for very high level stuff even then, since a lowly caseworker from the ROTD gets called to rule on Mort's case when Jones disputes Ankuo's claim to his spirit and even though Ankuo is an afterlife guide, he abides by the ruling with only minimal protest. And he didn't intervene at all in Jeanne's case when Annie was squaring off with the afterlife guides. He only showed up to see what was happening with the arrow until Kat attempted to use it in a way that would breach Annie's ownership contract over Rey. So his authority definitely includes contract negotiations that aren't related to death, such as object ownership and new life. He's also limited when it comes to situations outside contract law, such as Annie being shifted. Where, not only does he not have the ability to address it, he's not even clear on who does - since he refers them to temporal affairs, but when we meet the Norns later (in their role with temporal affairs) we find out they can't fix it either. But Zimmy can and does with minimal effort in find yourself. Even more interesting, since Coyote/Loup action's are outside the authority of both Salsamel and the Norns, that may mean Zimmy's are as well and that Kat is either on her way to being able to ignore the authority of beings like the arbiter and the Norns or already there and the arbiter/interpreter are thrying to get her under control before she figures that out. Very nice job of collecting the relevant events! One thing I think everyone is forgetting though, is that people (creatures) can lie. I think we're seeing a fair amount of unreliable narrator stuff going on here. Some of these guys are saying what they need to say to have things go the way they want.
For example, the Interpreter said that the Department of Temporal Affairs were the only ones that could help Annie, and then that same Department said they couldn't do anything. One of them or both of them was lying. It seems like a typical bureaucratic lie - passing the buck - rather than a malicious one. Very possible that the Norns knew that Annie's situation would be resolved without their intervention. Another example, the psychopomps lied when they said they owed Annie nothing. They totally maneuvered her into place to do their jobs for them, then squeezed her into agreeing to do more of the same. I really don't like those guys. They are manipulative and dishonest. For a minute there, I wondered if they would have been forced to heal Smitty if Annie hadn't bought their argument, but then I realized that this is just used car salesman sleaziness, and probably not something covered by their contracts. If anything, they worked Annie around to doing their jobs for them (an unlicensed psychopomp), giving them plausible deniability if things went bad. Also, they clearly were able to heal Smitty, implying Annie would have also been able to do so - if she knew the trade secrets of the psychopomps - and they didn't tell her any of that. Instead, they maneuvered a teenage girl into doing a scary part of their jobs for them, then pressured her into slavery. More or less. I kinda wish Annie would ask the Interpreter about these events...
Another of the scenes you included was the Jones/Mort thing. It is interesting that the ROTD guy was actually able to take Mort even though Ankou was there, ready to take him. This is a hint as to how the organizations are structured. Either the ROTD is higher up, or that situation was one that fell within their contractually defined area of responsibility. We didn't see the Arbiter at that time because there was no contractual violation, and thus nothing to arbitrate.
It's probably Jones bringing up that it was unjust BUT it might end up being she said she was the cause of his death. since it was the war maybe they sent any and everyone to take whoever that was even remotely in jurisdiction. That's why he didn't come back for Mort when he wanted to go to the ether And Annie will be the MISC pomp Taking all outside ones which includes the NP |
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Post by pyradonis on Jan 3, 2024 11:55:34 GMT
For example, the Interpreter said that the Department of Temporal Affairs were the only ones that could help Annie, and then that same Department said they couldn't do anything. One of them or both of them was lying. It seems like a typical bureaucratic lie - passing the buck - rather than a malicious one. Very possible that the Norns knew that Annie's situation would be resolved without their intervention. Well, the Norns were apparently right in that the duplicated Annie wasn't a "temporal affair" after all, but I don't think the Arbiter (or Clippy) necessarily lied about the reason for there being two Annies, he might also have simply been wrong because it's not what he's specialized in. |
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Post by eyemyself on Jan 3, 2024 22:37:32 GMT
One thing I think everyone is forgetting though, is that people (creatures) can lie. I think we're seeing a fair amount of unreliable narrator stuff going on here. Some of these guys are saying what they need to say to have things go the way they want.
For example, the Interpreter said that the Department of Temporal Affairs were the only ones that could help Annie, and then that same Department said they couldn't do anything. One of them or both of them was lying. It seems like a typical bureaucratic lie - passing the buck - rather than a malicious one. Very possible that the Norns knew that Annie's situation would be resolved without their intervention. Could be a lie, but it could also simply being uninformed about what the teams in other departments actually do. A key hallmark of any big bureaucracy is heavily siloed departments that don’t communicate well with each other playing a never-ending game of “oh, you need to talk to xyz about that… It’s one of the many reasons government officials are so slow about getting anything done! (Ask me how many times the court misfiled the summons for my divorce. I lost count! In addition to multiple online filings I hand delivered it TWICE to THE SAME clerk before they actually updated the files and moved my case forward.) I’m fond of the adage “never attribute to malice that which can be explained by incompetence. 🤣 Another example, the psychopomps lied when they said they owed Annie nothing. They totally maneuvered her into place to do their jobs for them, then squeezed her into agreeing to do more of the same. I really don't like those guys. They are manipulative and dishonest. For a minute there, I wondered if they would have been forced to heal Smitty if Annie hadn't bought their argument, but then I realized that this is just used car salesman sleaziness, and probably not something covered by their contracts. If anything, they worked Annie around to doing their jobs for them (an unlicensed psychopomp), giving them plausible deniability if things went bad. Also, they clearly were able to heal Smitty, implying Annie would have also been able to do so - if she knew the trade secrets of the psychopomps - and they didn't tell her any of that. Instead, they maneuvered a teenage girl into doing a scary part of their jobs for them, then pressured her into slavery. More or less. Hard agree here. The guides have been taking advantage of our girl for a long time and they definitely play fast and loose with the rules to get what they want. Including making a young CHILD take the mother she just lost into the afterlife on her own w/out even giving her the basic info she needed to make a final record Annie could always reference when she misses her. I kinda wish Annie would ask the Interpreter about these events...
Me too. I suspect, absent any paperwork and given their coercive tactics, Annie may have a strong case for breaking that agreement should she choose to follow up. Another of the scenes you included was the Jones/Mort thing. It is interesting that the ROTD guy was actually able to take Mort even though Ankou was there, ready to take him. This is a hint as to how the organizations are structured. Either the ROTD is higher up, or that situation was one that fell within their contractually defined area of responsibility. We didn't see the Arbiter at that time because there was no contractual violation, and thus nothing to arbitrate.
Yeah, that’s what I said. I don’t think it’s a matter of one reporting to the other as much as jurisdiction & how much hassle sorting out conflict formally vs. informally might cause. It’s likely Ankou could have appealed, but decided that the benefit of “maybe” adding one more soul to his quota wasn’t worth the headache of escalating the decision to a higher authority. You’d be surprised how often the “rules” get subordinated to “oh man, I really don’t want to spend the rest of the week filling out 56 copies of form 835oxg12 and filing them with all the relevant departments. Sure, just carry on. I’ll be on my way.” Especially if he already knows the situation is likely to go the other way. But even if he’s likely to win the arbitration, it might not be worth taking the time away from hours he could be out scooping up souls no one is contesting. |
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Post by eyemyself on Jan 3, 2024 22:42:58 GMT
So does this call for every single New Person to be assigned a tracker if they were to die? Happy new Years, incidentally. Nah, more like an excuse to make a convoluted mechanism to find the deceased NP souls... And then apply it to every other soul in existence just because "it's right there, why not use it?" Oooooooh, now that, I suspect, would piss the guides off by making them essentially redundant. It sounds like guides get a lot of perks for collecting their soul quotas. Kat making an insta soul collection tool would potentially put them all out of a job. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jan 3, 2024 23:12:59 GMT
To be fair Surma wanted Antimony kept ignorant about a lot of stuff related to her fire and maybe by extension some guide stuff... Then again, she seemed okay with little Annie being used to mediate disputes/resolve haunting(s). Of course, Surma minus most of her fire might have been persuaded into it against what she originally wanted. Either way, one wonders if the 'pomps would have gone along with keeping Antimony ignorant if it hadn't fit in with their agenda.
Also, the 'pomps are servants to soul-keepers (gods). It may be the case they're eager to harvest out of loyalty and devotion and/or maintaining their positions and the perks that come with. Much of what the bureaucracy does is probably formalized means of settling conflicting powerful interests. Antimony would gain the 'pomp powers even though Kat isn't that sort of god because Antimony would become a 'pomp and that's what happens with 'pomps (or in other words the ether has accepted the office of 'pomp and therefore Antimony can be slotted into it and use them even though Kat herself can't yet grant Antimony the abilities as was done in times of yore).
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Post by silicondream on Jan 4, 2024 4:57:20 GMT
To be fair Surma wanted Antimony kept ignorant about a lot of stuff related to her fire and maybe by extension some guide stuff... I don't think there's any "maybe" about it. She didn't even warn Annie about Renard, or tell her anything about the Court, despite being the one who wanted Annie to attend the Court in the first place. It would probably have been slightly helpful to give Annie a list of people she could trust. Maybe also warn her about the imprisoned demon in a giant dragon's body who can kill people by looking at them and hates Tony and once murdered somebody out of love of fiery redheads. Surma was always a moderately deceptive person. Cheating on James, conning Renard...I'm not saying she didn't value honesty, but it was far from her top priority. (I speculate that she also held back a lot with Annie in particular, either because she wanted to present herself as an ideal mother for the short time she had left, or because she knew Annie would already have enough trouble defining herself as a separate person from her mother.) Annie herself, like her father, is a terrible liar. That's probably part of why she wasn't chosen to succeed Surma as Court Medium; Annie would be incapable of simultaneously schmoozing with Forest folk and following a hidden Court agenda. Indeed. It's probably better for these things to be resolved before they escalate to Skyfather vs. Skyfather. |
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