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Post by blahzor on Feb 28, 2023 3:38:17 GMT
i mean if you create a new species in your basement you don't worry about body death if you're mind is still there.. The bodies are also modular on top of it while being organic True. But there could be more consequences still. I wonder if she might anger some god or some other kind of etheric force (like arbiter Saslamel) by moving her consciousness between bodies if the original dies. And this sounds like it could be a serious violation since that would disrupt the way of things in GC world because after a human dies his soul should be absorbed into the Ether and the world should keep spinning.... well, if i remember it correctly. Yet if you become a god you can subvert the rules. Coyote did it all the time. Including time shifting people without permission. Distributing dangerous powers on a whim |
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Post by arf on Feb 28, 2023 5:25:06 GMT
Later...
Kat: That was an.. experience! Thanks for guiding me back in, Annie. How did you...?
Annie: Well, you clearly weren't in your body, but insisted you'd hadn't uploaded yourself. The real clue, though, was that Kat Donlan couldn't see anything. Obviously, you were in the Ether.
Kat: Why is Paz in fetal position?
Annie: ... We both saw what we saw!
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Post by drmemory on Feb 28, 2023 5:42:24 GMT
So who could they go to for help with getting Kat back in her body? Who might have the power to do something like that? Most likely to be able to do it, given what we know about them: Loup, Zimmy. I can't imagine they'd trust Loup, even if they could find him, and Zimmy seems unlikely to want to help her possible future murderess. Less likely: Kat's parents (one for magic, the other for computer skills). Evil Buddha might possibly be able to help if they could talk him into it. The shadow men as well, but in both cases, I can't imagine they'd want to expose Kat's weakness to them... That's a general problem really. Kat isn't gonna want to let anyone know about all of this - her secret computer, her New People, Robot, her powers... All big secrets from the court, the shadow men, and all adults. Not only that, but if they approached the court in any way, they would be sure to demand something from Kat - probably that she go with them. They'd also want to know allll about her inventions and new technology.
No other choice - it's time for a wacky forest plan!
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Post by madjack on Feb 28, 2023 5:50:50 GMT
Juliette might be a candidate to get help from, given she's the one who did the consciousness transfer research, and is already in on the secrets.
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Post by sosleepy on Feb 28, 2023 11:13:54 GMT
True. But there could be more consequences still. I wonder if she might anger some god or some other kind of etheric force (like arbiter Saslamel) by moving her consciousness between bodies if the original dies. And this sounds like it could be a serious violation since that would disrupt the way of things in GC world because after a human dies his soul should be absorbed into the Ether and the world should keep spinning.... well, if i remember it correctly. Yet if you become a god you can subvert the rules. Coyote did it all the time. Including time shifting people without permission. Distributing dangerous powers on a whim You can become anything and break any rule. The secret is to not get caught~ |
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Post by pyradonis on Feb 28, 2023 12:42:40 GMT
I'm recalling that the chapter title is "An Aside (in which Kat goes too far)" – I'm not sure what part of this would be an "aside," which in theater is a character talking to the audience but not heard by the other characters, so it doesn't affect the plot in any way. What if this is going on in an alternate timeline, and it's being shown here either because this version of Kat is going to affect the main timeline soon? Or, what if we're seeing this for contrast, because a similar sequence of events is going to be shown in the main timeline but with people making different decisions? Perhaps the chapter title is simply meant to be ironic - similar to "Faraway Morning and Three Short Tales", which turned out to be the longest chapter so far at that point.
the weird thing Kat is using 2 different cameras to look through. i assume she's materalizing them like the speaker so why? testing out things while still in this scenario meaning she's not even taking this seriously I don't think it's weird. The cameras are in fixed positions and give her only a fixed view of the room, she can't look around like when using one's own eyes. Looking through multiple cameras mitigates this. |
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Post by blahzor on Feb 28, 2023 21:24:42 GMT
I'm recalling that the chapter title is "An Aside (in which Kat goes too far)" – I'm not sure what part of this would be an "aside," which in theater is a character talking to the audience but not heard by the other characters, so it doesn't affect the plot in any way. What if this is going on in an alternate timeline, and it's being shown here either because this version of Kat is going to affect the main timeline soon? Or, what if we're seeing this for contrast, because a similar sequence of events is going to be shown in the main timeline but with people making different decisions? Perhaps the chapter title is simply meant to be ironic - similar to "Faraway Morning and Three Short Tales", which turned out to be the longest chapter so far at that point. the weird thing Kat is using 2 different cameras to look through. i assume she's materalizing them like the speaker so why? testing out things while still in this scenario meaning she's not even taking this seriously I don't think it's weird. The cameras are in fixed positions and give her only a fixed view of the room, she can't look around like when using one's own eyes. Looking through multiple cameras mitigates this. still think it's weirs seeing as she materalized the speaker, she could in theory manufacture and materilize a movable camera. classic baby god forgets they can do anything b/c they haven't thought that far ahead |
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Post by Per on Feb 28, 2023 22:37:46 GMT
I seem to have missed where it's made clear she materialized anything?
But then I also missed where it was established Omega is an entity and not a device, more than a few people seem to be going with that now.
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Post by blahzor on Feb 28, 2023 23:02:31 GMT
I seem to have missed where it's made clear she materialized anything? But then I also missed where it was established Omega is an entity and not a device, more than a few people seem to be going with that now. the speaker was not there at any point until after she activated the chip. then it's suddenly there to talk to Paz and Annie |
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Post by drmemory on Feb 28, 2023 23:02:44 GMT
I seem to have missed where it's made clear she materialized anything? But then I also missed where it was established Omega is an entity and not a device, more than a few people seem to be going with that now. I don't think that is known for sure. I've been assuming Omega is an entity just because it seems to make sense in the story! Also, we've heard a lot of references to things that "Omega said" or "Omega predicted". I guess we can't entirely rule out that this is just people anthropomorphizing a computer program of course.
I've done that myself. When you write code that reaches a certain level of complexity, it's hard not to think of it as having an independent existence. Not alive, exactly, but... hard to describe I guess.
Omega is known to have existed for some years. Certainly since before Annie was born! It may not be alive in a biologic sense but I bet it's reached a level of complexity where the original programmer(s) aren't quite sure about how it works at this point. It's easy to speculate that, in a world with entities like Zimmy and Coyote and the psychopomps and the Norns and the power of the ether that such a complex program might achieve sentience. Personally, i think it highly likely - my question is more whether it did so on its own or if someone like Coyote helped it along. Or whether Diego's mind might not be in there...
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Post by Per on Feb 28, 2023 23:11:14 GMT
I seem to have missed where it's made clear she materialized anything? But then I also missed where it was established Omega is an entity and not a device, more than a few people seem to be going with that now. the speaker was not there at any point until after she activated the chip. then it's suddenly there to talk to Paz and Annie But if you look at the backdrops there's not much of anything except for silhouettes of machinery and cables in addition to whatever people happen to be interacting with. It seems like a much more natural assumption that things just aren't drawn until and when they perform some story function. |
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Post by blahzor on Feb 28, 2023 23:15:54 GMT
the speaker was not there at any point until after she activated the chip. then it's suddenly there to talk to Paz and Annie But if you look at the backdrops there's not much of anything except for silhouettes of machinery and cables in addition to whatever people happen to be interacting with. It seems like a much more natural assumption that things just aren't drawn until and when they perform some story function. it's due to how close it is to her body and the fall process. there is nothing that close let alone a speaker and why would it be like 3 feet from them in a area they are doing surgery. And Kat downsized any excess equipment from her work area long ago. you can also infer the cameras are also materilzed she wouldn't need a camera system b/c that increases the chances the court finding out also she has a robot cult protecting her at all times (while she works only?) |
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Post by pyradonis on Mar 1, 2023 11:15:40 GMT
Perhaps the chapter title is simply meant to be ironic - similar to "Faraway Morning and Three Short Tales", which turned out to be the longest chapter so far at that point. I don't think it's weird. The cameras are in fixed positions and give her only a fixed view of the room, she can't look around like when using one's own eyes. Looking through multiple cameras mitigates this.
still think it's weirs seeing as she materalized the speaker, she could in theory manufacture and materilize a movable camera. classic baby god forgets they can do anything b/c they haven't thought that far ahead I doubt she materialized the speaker. Like Per said, nothing of the stuff in the room had been drawn until now besides in the form of some silhouettes. On today's page she also says that she is *accessing* electronical equipment.
As to your question why she has cameras etc. stuffed into this room: Most likely Kat deliberately crammed the room full of different equipment to test out her new abilities. And obviously this part is working.
I seem to have missed where it's made clear she materialized anything? But then I also missed where it was established Omega is an entity and not a device, more than a few people seem to be going with that now. Several characters in the comic speak of "Omega" as if it was an entity instead of a device. Most recently, Zimmy spoke of "Omega" while also saying that there is no "device". It seems there is disagreement about this among the characters in the story as well. Lastly, from our point of view, there are also two other important characters in the story named after Greek letters. And it just sounds cooler to speak of Omega as an entity.
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Post by TBeholder on Mar 2, 2023 1:50:46 GMT
Most recently, Zimmy spoke of "Omega" while also saying that there is no "device". That’s not quite what she said. It seems there is disagreement about this among the characters in the story as well. Which likely indicates need-to-know layered secrecy around the entire mess. |
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Post by pyradonis on Mar 2, 2023 15:34:32 GMT
Most recently, Zimmy spoke of "Omega" while also saying that there is no "device". That’s not quite what she said. Okay, literally she said "the Court ain't got no device". How do you interpret it? |
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Post by TBeholder on Mar 2, 2023 18:50:40 GMT
That’s not quite what she said. Okay, literally she said "the Court ain't got no device". How do you interpret it? For one, there’s « they ain’t got no device». Also, note «[we are searching for Omega]» «Well, you found me». The problem is that a lot of meaning is up to her interpretation of something completely unknown to us, and even that is… less than clear. |
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Post by Sky Schemer on Mar 3, 2023 0:51:00 GMT
Several characters in the comic speak of "Omega" as if it was an entity instead of a device. According to the Gunnerkrigg Index, that's not really an accurate representation. Shell, Ata, and Tony all refer to it as the Omega Device, and only Shell has occasionally shortened it to just "Omega". And from reviewing those pages, I'm not getting that feeling that it's an entity. Otherwise they wouldn't be using "Device" along with it. And these are people who supposedly know something about what it is. Yes, Zimmy calls it just "Omega", but Zimmy is an unusual case. I'm willing to accept that Tony, Shell, Ata, etc. are being misled about it being a device, but there's no in-comic evidence yet that this is the case. |
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Post by drmemory on Mar 3, 2023 1:35:40 GMT
Several characters in the comic speak of "Omega" as if it was an entity instead of a device. According to the Gunnerkrigg Index, that's not really an accurate representation. Shell, Ata, and Tony all refer to it as the Omega Device, and only Shell has occasionally shortened it to just "Omega". And from reviewing those pages, I'm not getting that feeling that it's an entity. Otherwise they wouldn't be using "Device" along with it. And these are people who supposedly know something about what it is. Yes, Zimmy calls it just "Omega", but Zimmy is an unusual case. I'm willing to accept that Tony, Shell, Ata, etc. are being misled about it being a device, but there's no in-comic evidence yet that this is the case. So when Loup sensed Omega from where he was meditating, which certainly appeared to be in the ether, you think he was sensing a device? Hmmm. I think it a lot more likely that he could only sense something with a consciousness... or at least something alive.
That doesn't mean it didn't start out as a device, of course. Perhaps a dedicated computer running the Omega program. I bet it's more than that now though.
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Post by csj on Mar 3, 2023 5:28:47 GMT
Kat has surely shown the capacity for objects to be living beings... and vice versa
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Post by blahzor on Mar 3, 2023 10:28:58 GMT
According to the Gunnerkrigg Index, that's not really an accurate representation. Shell, Ata, and Tony all refer to it as the Omega Device, and only Shell has occasionally shortened it to just "Omega". And from reviewing those pages, I'm not getting that feeling that it's an entity. Otherwise they wouldn't be using "Device" along with it. And these are people who supposedly know something about what it is. Yes, Zimmy calls it just "Omega", but Zimmy is an unusual case. I'm willing to accept that Tony, Shell, Ata, etc. are being misled about it being a device, but there's no in-comic evidence yet that this is the case. So when Loup sensed Omega from where he was meditating, which certainly appeared to be in the ether, you think he was sensing a device? Hmmm. I think it a lot more likely that he could only sense something with a consciousness... or at least something alive. That doesn't mean it didn't start out as a device, of course. Perhaps a dedicated computer running the Omega program. I bet it's more than that now though.
Wasn't Loup just sensing the word Omega as he didn't actually know what was going on but his intuition/Coyote sense allowed him to know |
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Post by TBeholder on Mar 3, 2023 14:13:57 GMT
According to the Gunnerkrigg Index, that's not really an accurate representation. Shell, Ata, and Tony all refer to it as the Omega Device, and only Shell has occasionally shortened it to just "Omega". And from reviewing those pages, I'm not getting that feeling that it's an entity. Otherwise they wouldn't be using "Device" along with it. And these are people who supposedly know something about what it is. Did she shorten the same term, or did she use both non-interchangeably? I'm willing to accept that Tony, Shell, Ata, etc. are being misled about it being a device, but there's no in-comic evidence yet that this is the case. There is abundant evidence of secrecy, however. |
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Post by drmemory on Mar 4, 2023 3:37:11 GMT
So when Loup sensed Omega from where he was meditating, which certainly appeared to be in the ether, you think he was sensing a device? Hmmm. I think it a lot more likely that he could only sense something with a consciousness... or at least something alive. That doesn't mean it didn't start out as a device, of course. Perhaps a dedicated computer running the Omega program. I bet it's more than that now though.
Wasn't Loup just sensing the word Omega as he didn't actually know what was going on but his intuition/Coyote sense allowed him to know Well obviously, only Tom knows for sure, but I get the sense that Loup is a lot better with organic things - living entities and such, trees, all that. Remember, he thought of the NP as being not alive, even though he was looking at them moving around and talking! We also have seen no evidence at all that he understands or respects computers. Think back to when Annie and Loup's meatsuit talked about Omega and other science topics - he seemed to find it all very novel, and had to dip into Coyote's omniscience to even get a starting point towards understanding that stuff!
So I am very skeptical that he would have sensed a computer, computer program, or related device from his etheric meditation spot. Much more likely that he'd be able to sense something with a mind that he would recognize as living, in some sense. We also haven't seen him do anything like sensing what lots are thinking about, and we hadn't ever seen him tap into Coyote's knowledge of everything at that point.
In short, I feel like that Loup scene is evidence for Omega being alive... in some sense. Loup has certainly never sensed one of Tony's spreadsheets!
The fact that Zimmy sensed it around the same time is interesting, but we know even less about her "powers" work, and I think I remember her saying something about the forest entity being obsessed with it. It may be that it was more Zimmy sensing Loup's obsession than Zimmy sensing Omega directly. But since we don't really know how she works, I'm not sure what this would tell us.
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Post by silicondream on Mar 6, 2023 8:32:50 GMT
Several characters in the comic speak of "Omega" as if it was an entity instead of a device. According to the Gunnerkrigg Index, that's not really an accurate representation. Shell, Ata, and Tony all refer to it as the Omega Device, and only Shell has occasionally shortened it to just "Omega". And from reviewing those pages, I'm not getting that feeling that it's an entity. Otherwise they wouldn't be using "Device" along with it. And these are people who supposedly know something about what it is. Yes, Zimmy calls it just "Omega", but Zimmy is an unusual case. I'm willing to accept that Tony, Shell, Ata, etc. are being misled about it being a device, but there's no in-comic evidence yet that this is the case. I'm guessing the terminology reflects each speaker's prejudices. Whatever Omega is, the masters of the Court would call it a "device" because, well, they devised it. They probably don't much care whether it's conscious or self-aware, any more than Aata cares about the minds of the robots he helped to weaponize. Functional performance is what matters to them. For her part, whatever Omega is, Zimmy would likely see it as conscious and hostile because that's how she sees most things when she's not doing well, including presumably-mindless machines like cars and Tic-Tocs. Mechanism is less important than intent to her (and in her world intent is usually malicious.) As for what Omega is to itself, I doubt any of them have asked. |
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