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Post by mordekai on Mar 26, 2022 23:56:13 GMT
I can see several problems with the Omega Device... First, is quantum mechanics' uncertainty principle, which states that you can't know the position and state of even a single particle with perfect accuracy. Second, is the fact that we probably can't perceive most of the universe: The observable universe is a sphere with a radius of 45.7 billion light-years; we just can't perceive anything beyond that... the universe could be WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY bigger than that (infinite, even) or, paradoxically, smaller (theory of the finite but unbounded universe). And then there is the possible existance of other universes that have been theorized to be able to interact with our own (look for the "cold spot" multiversal theory). Even if what we can perceive is all that exists, there is the fact that what we are perceiving isn't the present universe, but the past: What we see is how the universe was years, centuries, millennia, millions of years or billions of years ago, not how it is now... So the Omega Device has no way to record the state of every particle in the universe, because it can't perceive most of them at all. Yeah, you could argue that the present state of most of the universe is irrelevant to us, because what isn't beyond our range of observation can't influence us... however, what if there is something coming at us at the speed of light? like a true vacuum bubble? We couldn't perceive it until it hit us. Our world could be destroyed without the Omega Device even learning of the cause. Third is the fact that such computer would need immense memory and computation power... and even if it was achieved, that computer would have to contain a simulation of itself, and that simulation would contain in turn a simulation of the universe, including a simulation of the computer containing a simulation and the simulation of the simulation... etc., ad infinitum... and of course, the computer would have to take into account its interactions with the universe and its influence on people, and how it influences the universe... so effectively we would need a computer bigger than the whole universe... I think that computer can't exist as a purely scientific construct. It would need to be a etheric one, which would make sense if they want to steal Coyote's power to fuel it... but, on the other hand, their Ultimate Determinist Engine would work on magic they loathe because they can't understand how it works... so... they would have zero assurance that their computer is doing what they think it is doing...
It sounds to me like the Omega Device is an outdated project of old school Newtonian determinists who refuse to accept that their theories have become obsolete.
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Post by arf on Mar 27, 2022 0:03:33 GMT
Godel's Incompleteness Theorems is the 'mathematical model' referred to above that states no closed system can fully describe itself. I'm sure Ton... the Court is aware of them (and I suspect Annie hasn't finished speaking.) Apart from that, there's quantum physics, and chaos theory. If you dive down that rabbit hole, you'll find that there are circumstances where accurately predicting an outcome (eg is a point in the Mandelbrot set) requires a precision greater than the Universe can provide.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Mar 27, 2022 2:20:36 GMT
It's difficult to define "ether" except as a catch-all to describe the magical and spiritual, perhaps also the celestial; ether can have the attributes of a substance, force or place depending on context but in abstract seems to be none of those consistently. It does appear to be an antithesis for matter in that matter "behaves" according to set "rules" and ether by its existence, which I would argue is impossible to rationally deny in the Gunnerverse, is antagonistic to materialism. Ether does seem to be measurable at least against other manifestations potential or realized ether, for example some people have more etheric ability than others and some sources of etheric power are insufficient for particular goals but not for others, but we have yet to encounter a standard unit of measurement which, one would think, would be the first step in the Court's efforts to understand it. That plus the notion that some people with etheric abilities that may be generally weaker can manifest particular effects that the stronger users might not suggests that a unit of measurement applicable across all fields may not be possible. This apparently being the case I think it's reasonable to think of the ether as being diametrically opposed to matter yet existent with it and interacting with it, therefore reality in the Gunnerverse should be viewed as a continuum between ether and matter, with some places closer or farther from the ether for example, though it may be that matter in the Gunnerverse is best viewed as a state of ether.
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Post by justcurious on Mar 27, 2022 2:26:36 GMT
Talk about "knowledge of everything" might be only a thought experiment that was part of Tony's explanation to Annie rather than what the Court actually expects to gain. We'll know soon I think.
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Post by drmemory on Mar 27, 2022 3:58:36 GMT
Just re-read today's page, and something occurred to me. We keep seeing Loup dismiss anything he doesn't think is important. We saw Ysengrin do much the same thing. So my question is, I wonder how much Coyote tried to educate Ysengrin before giving up and going with the current plan? Coyote is clever, so maybe it didn't take too many attempts...
I was actually kind of startled to learn that Coyote had the ability to know anything he wanted to know, and that Loup is able to tap into that. No wonder he couldn't handle the forest! He is determinedly ignorant of anything he doesn't think is important. I seem to even recall him telling Annie that things were easy and he could do them instantly if he chose to, but then getting defensive and bitter when challenged. Coyote flat out TOLD him that he already had what he needed inside him!
A less stubborn, more open-minded Loup (or Ysengrin) could have been an active participant in Coyote's plans. Instead of a furry puppet.
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Post by blahzor on Mar 27, 2022 6:31:16 GMT
What if the real mechanism behind ether is just all unknown knowledge or unexplainable things. The only way to rid of it is to get all knowledge. And humans thoughts just shapes around the emptiness that the creatures use and call the ether
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Post by justcurious on Mar 27, 2022 7:25:52 GMT
What if the real mechanism behind ether is just all unknown knowledge or unexplainable things. The only way to rid of it is to get all knowledge. And humans thoughts just shapes around the emptiness that the creatures use and call the ether That fits in with how Zimmy was talking about the seen and unseen World. |
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Post by pyradonis on Mar 27, 2022 16:50:33 GMT
I can see several problems with the Omega Device... [shortened for brevity] I could imagine this is more or less why Kat thinks Omega is an interesting theory, but nothing more.
[...] Ether does seem to be measurable at least against other manifestations potential or realized ether, for example some people have more etheric ability than others and some sources of etheric power are insufficient for particular goals but not for others, but we have yet to encounter a standard unit of measurement which, one would think, would be the first step in the Court's efforts to understand it. That plus the notion that some people with etheric abilities that may be generally weaker can manifest particular effects that the stronger users might not suggests that a unit of measurement applicable across all fields may not be possible.[...] Makes sense, however I would like to point out that at least for some parts of the Etheric study field, units of measurement appear to have been established. EDIT: Okay, it's not really a unit of measurement.
What if the real mechanism behind ether is just all unknown knowledge or unexplainable things. The only way to rid of it is to get all knowledge. And humans thoughts just shapes around the emptiness that the creatures use and call the ether Makes a shocking amount of sense, actually. It need not even actually be true, only the Court leaders have to be convinced of it - get rid of any need for myths, stories religion and any other kind of comforting explanations, get rid of the Ether by cutting off its fuel supply.
Talk about "knowledge of everything" might be only a thought experiment that was part of Tony's explanation to Annie rather than what the Court actually expects to gain. We'll know soon I think. Maybe it's just a perfectly working weather forecast.  |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Mar 28, 2022 0:38:59 GMT
[...] Ether does seem to be measurable at least against other manifestations potential or realized ether, for example some people have more etheric ability than others and some sources of etheric power are insufficient for particular goals but not for others, but we have yet to encounter a standard unit of measurement which, one would think, would be the first step in the Court's efforts to understand it. That plus the notion that some people with etheric abilities that may be generally weaker can manifest particular effects that the stronger users might not suggests that a unit of measurement applicable across all fields may not be possible.[...] Makes sense, however I would like to point out that at least for some parts of the Etheric study field, units of measurement appear to have been established. "Level 6" (etheric distortion) is not a unit of measurement. It's a categorization that might rank the strength of phenomena but could as easily refer to some other descriptor(s) or data points. A thunderstorm can be categorized by number, size and arrangement of cells and/or by life stage, for example, and while that may imply a temperature, air pressure, or precipitation type/range it is not a measurement of those things. A unit of measure would be miles/kilometers per hour for wind speed, degrees Fahrenheit or Celsius for temperature, hectopascals for pressure, and inches or centimeters precipitation (and I think one more I'm forgetting). There is no standard unit of measure for ether in the comic that I am aware of. [edit] A standard unit of measure for ether could be something like the amount of ether required to make a reaction through clay (which could be a minimum amount of etheric displacement required in a non-movement function of a golem, which I'll call a diego (d) even though that might get confused with d for displacement because I don't know his last name. Conductive metal may require much less ether so perhaps Robot's chip requires 0.025d to create an electrical impulse that interacts with the rest of him. Robot's NM body is presumably purely non-magical and runs on chemical energy and electricity so it probably doesn't need any more etheric flow to function regardless of what he's doing, but a conventional golem should take much more ether to do work, though were that ether comes from isn't clear. Maybe the ether comes from the environment which could provide an alternative explanation for why robots couldn't leave the Court; perhaps when they're not as close to the ether there isn't enough local flow to work. A unit representing etheric resistance of materials may or may not be required for proper comparisons, clay might have a 1 just as an arbitrary starting point while d just represents volume of ether required for the minimal flow or whatever, but let's ignore that for now. Regardless, the amount of ether required for a conventional golem to do work should be able to be expressed in diegos to joules or something like that... except that there's been nothing like that in the comic which I think means that it can't be expressed like that, probably because there isn't a consistent value for d and perhaps there can't be. [/edit] sidenote: Long-term weather prediction is notoriously difficult to model, that may be why the Court seems to be interested in collecting meteorological data. They could be using it to try to fine-tune Omega. |
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Post by najmniejszy on Mar 28, 2022 11:44:16 GMT
What if all the quantum uncertainty actually stems form the ether in Gunnerkrigg universe? Perhaps once the court sucks ether out of something, the usb-atomic particles are just smaller "stones" that behave completely prdictably and we can know their location and speed alike. What if court despises ether not for all the "magic", but for introducing unpredictability into otherwise perfectscientific models?
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Post by Tenjen on Mar 28, 2022 12:50:49 GMT
is it a good or bad thing that Loup is expanding his horizons?
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Post by crater on Mar 29, 2022 2:59:48 GMT
Is Loup drawing some meta understanding between his fake Coyote Tooth and Atoms?
Think that is why he dismissed the Atom all together. He knows from first hand experience that stones can be swords and teeth all at the same time. From his perspective Atoms are just another name for Magic.
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Post by blahzor on Mar 29, 2022 7:52:31 GMT
is it a good or bad thing that Loup is expanding his horizons? Let him learn before he dies |
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