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Post by speedwell on Feb 23, 2022 13:28:13 GMT
some sort of sexually available not-person--lamia, vampire, slave wife, Gamma-- Gamma?? I had thought silicondream was referring to Huxley's early dystopian novel Brave New World, tbh. |
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Post by speedwell on Feb 23, 2022 13:38:00 GMT
To anyone who insists on warnings in advance of difficult events... Friends, this is not your comic, it's Tom's. You may say "I don't like the way this is being handled", and you may politely suggest that another way of dealing with the subject would be more welcome. But you have no entitlement to creative control, and no entitlement to a warning that things might be difficult for you. The author is not your therapist or a mind reader, so even if he was kind enough to consider a warning, he would be unable to guess exactly what you or anyone else might need to feel comfortable. Excellent fiction writing must be honest and forthright in its portrayal of unpleasant subjects as necessary. Please take the responsibility for your feelings back onto yourself. While I understand where you're coming from too, I think your being unecessarily antagonistic about the issue. It is reasonable to (politely) request to be informed of the tone and major themes of a work before consuming it. Simply asking does not rise to the level of entitlement, nor even expressing the opinion that an author would do good to provide such details to prospective consumers. Is not making informed choices of what (not) to read based on meta-knowledge of the contents "taking responsibility for one's own feelings"? You don't read horror if you don't want to be horrified, etc. Literate people take their cues from the text. In a well-written work like this one, a literate person's thoughtful interaction with the work helps them to understand and trust the author and to be patient while the themes are worked out. If you expect a running commentary from the author, you are better off sticking with the sort of movie video where you can turn on the director's concurrent lecture. |
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Post by Nnelg on Feb 23, 2022 16:19:54 GMT
While I understand where you're coming from too, I think your being unecessarily antagonistic about the issue. It is reasonable to (politely) request to be informed of the tone and major themes of a work before consuming it. Simply asking does not rise to the level of entitlement, nor even expressing the opinion that an author would do good to provide such details to prospective consumers. Is not making informed choices of what (not) to read based on meta-knowledge of the contents "taking responsibility for one's own feelings"? You don't read horror if you don't want to be horrified, etc. Literate people take their cues from the text. In a well-written work like this one, a literate person's thoughtful interaction with the work helps them to understand and trust the author and to be patient while the themes are worked out. If you expect a running commentary from the author, you are better off sticking with the sort of movie video where you can turn on the director's concurrent lecture. It is impossible to make an informed decision before reading, if the only way to get information is by reading. And it's not a matter of trust. One can trust an author to provide an even-handed and insightful take into a complex issue, but that has no bearing at all on one's own emotional readiness to grapple with said issue themselves. Besides, authors only earn trust with new readers after one has read a significant amount of their work, so demanding that people trust authors is tanamount to telling them to stay in their "safe space" of authors they already trust, and never try anyone new. And the dichotomy between "no information" and "running commentary" is false. Long before the internet existed, books had genre classifications, synopses, forewards, affidavits, and sometimes loquatious titles that spell out in great detail the subject. |
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Post by drmemory on Feb 23, 2022 16:55:16 GMT
You know, I think you have a point here. Both times we've seen elf kids in the wild, they were up to no good.
1. Harassing Zimmy because she was having problems and looked, um, "demon-like"
2. Bugging Lana because she may not be real, then asking for a free show. Or possibly something worse - not clear.
Brats or creepy juvenile delinquents? Or what?
Number 1 never happened except in Zimmy's head. You know, I've never quite understood that part. It kind of seems like Zimmy makes her little mind plays (for lack of a better term) based on the real personalities and struggles of the people sucked into them. At least sometimes?
Also, she can clearly cause effects in the real world, not just the ether. Did that really not happen at all, or did it get like rewound?
What I'm poking at is, was the way she had the elf kids behave how they would really have behaved in that situation? Or exaggerated? I can see evidence for both options in the way she had the Annies behave... Maybe the start of that was even real, but when things were resolved and her mind play ended, it was rewound past the start. Or maybe she just saw the kids playing ball and pulled them into her mind games? As I say, I'm still a little confused about what we saw there. Did Zimmy make up "an' she was all yellin' and cryin' and such" and the chase? Or was that her guess at how they would really behave? Or was that real (as in Zimmy was freaking out and they saw her and gave chase, being brats), and then later she like... erased it? I'm not sure it's as simple as "Zimmy made it all up".
Zimmy is a mystery wrapped in an enigma, with sharp pointy teeth.
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Post by speedwell on Feb 23, 2022 17:35:07 GMT
Literate people take their cues from the text. In a well-written work like this one, a literate person's thoughtful interaction with the work helps them to understand and trust the author and to be patient while the themes are worked out. If you expect a running commentary from the author, you are better off sticking with the sort of movie video where you can turn on the director's concurrent lecture. It is impossible to make an informed decision before reading, if the only way to get information is byreading. That's the opposite of what is actually the case, so the rest does not follow. If what you say we're true, nobody would ever approach a literary work with a reader's skills. |
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Post by Runningflame on Feb 23, 2022 18:16:00 GMT
Number 1 never happened except in Zimmy's head. You know, I've never quite understood that part. It kind of seems like Zimmy makes her little mind plays (for lack of a better term) based on the real personalities and struggles of the people sucked into them. At least sometimes? Also, she can clearly cause effects in the real world, not just the ether. Did that really not happen at all, or did it get like rewound?
What I'm poking at is, was the way she had the elf kids behave how they would really have behaved in that situation? Or exaggerated? I can see evidence for both options in the way she had the Annies behave... Maybe the start of that was even real, but when things were resolved and her mind play ended, it was rewound past the start. Or maybe she just saw the kids playing ball and pulled them into her mind games? As I say, I'm still a little confused about what we saw there. Did Zimmy make up "an' she was all yellin' and cryin' and such" and the chase? Or was that her guess at how they would really behave? Or was that real (as in Zimmy was freaking out and they saw her and gave chase, being brats), and then later she like... erased it? I'm not sure it's as simple as "Zimmy made it all up".
Zimmy is a mystery wrapped in an enigma, with sharp pointy teeth.
It's hard to know what "really happened" when Zimmy is involved, to be sure. What we mainly have in this case are Gamma's statements to Renard about what's happening: - "Zimmy is being dramatic again. You and Antimony were caught up in it." Doesn't necessarily imply that no elf kids are involved, but doesn't mention them either.
- "That's not you. It's a part of Antimony." So apparently, though Renard is "caught up" in Zimmy's "drama," he's not actually in the street scene, he's just hanging out with Gamma.
- "They all are, in a way. Parts of Zimmy too." That "in a way" is a nice phrase for obscuring what's really going on. Does this mean the elf kids are just made of parts of Annie and Zimmy? Or that they are made of parts of Annie, parts of Zimmy, and also some other stuff--such as maybe their actual (s)elves?
- "Zimmy's reliving something that happened to her... Some teenagers chased her and beat her up. But now she's living it again with elements from the Court." This is the main thing that makes me think No Elf Kids Were Harmed In The Making Of This Chapter. Zimmy being chased and attacked is a memory of something that happened to her previously, perpetrated by some other (presumably human) teenagers. Strongly implied is that we only see elf kids chasing and attacking Zimmy because of Zimmy's memories, not because it was something the actual elf kids ever did.
- Then Tam shows up in Gammaspace. But is it actually Tam? Gamma says, "Sometimes Zimmy and I get a little peek into someone's mind like this." So his thoughts are based on the real Tam's thoughts--but it sounds like the mental access is read-only. What we're seeing is not something the real Tam is experiencing.
- And then one final statement to muddy the waters: Renard says, "I thought these weren't real people," and Gamma replies, "Oh, it's a little complicated..."
- ... at which point Tam melts away and Zimmy is there. I think we're supposed to conclude that "Tam" was actually Zimmy forgetting who she is again, with her mind-peeking abilities enabling her to say the things actual-Tam would be thinking if he were in this situation.
- Finally, when we return to the regular world, the elf kids are all playing ball and bringing sodas to each other; none of them have the shellshocked look I'd expect from someone who just experienced Zimmy's world for the first time.
So I think the actual elf kids experienced none of that chapter, and they were never chasing Zimmy to begin with. (Which does make the whole thing ring a little hollow to me.) |
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Post by DonDueed on Feb 23, 2022 18:33:10 GMT
You know, I've never quite understood that part. It kind of seems like Zimmy makes her little mind plays (for lack of a better term) based on the real personalities and struggles of the people sucked into them. At least sometimes? Also, she can clearly cause effects in the real world, not just the ether. Did that really not happen at all, or did it get like rewound?
What I'm poking at is, was the way she had the elf kids behave how they would really have behaved in that situation? Or exaggerated? I can see evidence for both options in the way she had the Annies behave... Maybe the start of that was even real, but when things were resolved and her mind play ended, it was rewound past the start. Or maybe she just saw the kids playing ball and pulled them into her mind games? As I say, I'm still a little confused about what we saw there. Did Zimmy make up "an' she was all yellin' and cryin' and such" and the chase? Or was that her guess at how they would really behave? Or was that real (as in Zimmy was freaking out and they saw her and gave chase, being brats), and then later she like... erased it? I'm not sure it's as simple as "Zimmy made it all up".
Zimmy is a mystery wrapped in an enigma, with sharp pointy teeth.
It's hard to know what "really happened" when Zimmy is involved, to be sure. What we mainly have in this case are Gamma's statements to Renard about what's happening: - "Zimmy is being dramatic again. You and Antimony were caught up in it." Doesn't necessarily imply that no elf kids are involved, but doesn't mention them either.
- "That's not you. It's a part of Antimony." So apparently, though Renard is "caught up" in Zimmy's "drama," he's not actually in the street scene, he's just hanging out with Gamma.
- "They all are, in a way. Parts of Zimmy too." That "in a way" is a nice phrase for obscuring what's really going on. Does this mean the elf kids are just made of parts of Annie and Zimmy? Or that they are made of parts of Annie, parts of Zimmy, and also some other stuff--such as maybe their actual (s)elves?
- "Zimmy's reliving something that happened to her... Some teenagers chased her and beat her up. But now she's living it again with elements from the Court." This is the main thing that makes me think No Elf Kids Were Harmed In The Making Of This Chapter. Zimmy being chased and attacked is a memory of something that happened to her previously, perpetrated by some other (presumably human) teenagers. Strongly implied is that we only see elf kids chasing and attacking Zimmy because of Zimmy's memories, not because it was something the actual elf kids ever did.
- Then Tam shows up in Gammaspace. But is it actually Tam? Gamma says, "Sometimes Zimmy and I get a little peek into someone's mind like this." So his thoughts are based on the real Tam's thoughts--but it sounds like the mental access is read-only. What we're seeing is not something the real Tam is experiencing.
- And then one final statement to muddy the waters: Renard says, "I thought these weren't real people," and Gamma replies, "Oh, it's a little complicated..."
- ... at which point Tam melts away and Zimmy is there. I think we're supposed to conclude that "Tam" was actually Zimmy forgetting who she is again, with her mind-peeking abilities enabling her to say the things actual-Tam would be thinking if he were in this situation.
- Finally, when we return to the regular world, the elf kids are all playing ball and bringing sodas to each other; none of them have the shellshocked look I'd expect from someone who just experienced Zimmy's world for the first time.
So I think the actual elf kids experienced none of that chapter, and they were never chasing Zimmy to begin with. (Which does make the whole thing ring a little hollow to me.) It seems to me like we're not supposed to be able to figure out exactly what's "really" going on. As you say, "in a way" and "it's complicated" are the keys there. |
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Post by aline on Feb 23, 2022 22:14:59 GMT
Number 1 never happened except in Zimmy's head. You know, I've never quite understood that part. It kind of seems like Zimmy makes her little mind plays (for lack of a better term) based on the real personalities and struggles of the people sucked into them. At least sometimes?
Also, she can clearly cause effects in the real world, not just the ether. Did that really not happen at all, or did it get like rewound? It's been confirmed by Tom in his Youtube chapter commentary that it never happened. Zimmy remembered another time she was being chased by (human) kids, before coming to the Court, and kind of projected that on a bunch of elf kids who were just minding their business playing football nearby. |
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Post by Isildur on Feb 23, 2022 22:33:12 GMT
I think something like this in a general sense is in character for Loup, he never tried to get Annie to stay in the Forest with him by force. He wants to be worshipped as the capital G god Coyote never cared to be and would find that beneath his pride and (imagined) dignity. Now, defending someone weak out of decency/camaraderie/friendship? Not in a million years. This might be where he starts inhabiting his persona more than the earlier pages with Loup in the back seat have so far suggested. Loup should stay as a non-wolf more often. He's much nicer this way. |
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Post by Nnelg on Feb 24, 2022 1:47:28 GMT
It is impossible to make an informed decision before reading, if the only way to get information is byreading. That's the opposite of what is actually the case, so the rest does not follow. If what you say we're true, nobody would ever approach a literary work with a reader's skills. ...you might want to read that sentence again, unless you are seriously arguing that an effect can occur before a cause. |
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Post by blahzor on Feb 24, 2022 6:02:47 GMT
That's the opposite of what is actually the case, so the rest does not follow. If what you say we're true, nobody would ever approach a literary work with a reader's skills. ...you might want to read that sentence again, unless you are seriously arguing that an effect can occur before a cause. It does in the comic |
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Post by speedwell on Feb 24, 2022 7:53:57 GMT
That's the opposite of what is actually the case, so the rest does not follow. If what you say we're true, nobody would ever approach a literary work with a reader's skills. ...you might want to read that sentence again, unless you are seriously arguing that an effect can occur before a cause. No, indeed. Go back to school, where you learn to read (and think) critically. |
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Post by mordekai on Mar 5, 2022 2:50:23 GMT
You know, I think you have a point here. Both times we've seen elf kids in the wild, they were up to no good.
1. Harassing Zimmy because she was having problems and looked, um, "demon-like"
2. Bugging Lana because she may not be real, then asking for a free show. Or possibly something worse - not clear.
Brats or creepy juvenile delinquents? Or what?
Refugee children in a deprived environment. As I said, the fact that they are refugees in an alien environment should make them cautious... I mean, if you were forced to leave Earth by a nuclear war, and had to migrate to planet Kepler-452b, which happens to be inhabited by alien Squid People... would you go out and pick fights with these? Or, would you try to avoid any trouble with them...?
These elf kids have the survival instincts of an inbred chihuahua.
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Post by speedwell on Mar 5, 2022 12:48:04 GMT
Refugee children in a deprived environment. As I said, the fact that they are refugees in an alien environment should make them cautious... I mean, if you were forced to leave Earth by a nuclear war, and had to migrate to planet Kepler-452b, which happens to be inhabited by alien Squid People... would you go out and pick fights with these? Or, would you try to avoid any trouble with them...?
These elf kids have the survival instincts of an inbred chihuahua.
The word "deprived" was used consciously. Teachers know that people in deprived environments don't learn or function optimally. Deprivation messes with your executive function, causes stress that impairs your ability to think and to make good decisions, and switches you into a survival mode where you often do things that would be unthinkable if you were secure and provided for adequately. Conservative politicians often buy into the science-fictional notion that deprivation sharpens the intellect, and so it does, if it is mild, and if you know it is temporary, and if you have had adequate sleep and medical care and haven't missed any meals, and if you are not consciously or subconsciously in fear for your life and well-being. |
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Post by maxptc on Mar 5, 2022 15:00:58 GMT
I think the refuge part isn't as important as the children part.
Ive noticed that both in the real world and fiction that kids/teens are very often being little shits. This phenomenon crosses cultures, social status, and gender. Heck, even characters we think of as awesome such as Kat and Annie, have had symptoms of B.L.S. Its kind of a mainstay for coming of age stories in my experience. It isn't usually a sign the people involed or there culture or entire race is one thing or another, it's just that knowing how to act when young is hard.
I don't think the elf kids did this because they are always out picking fights(in fact one instance of them being jerks is all made up by other kid, but im avoiding that rabbit hole) or dont know to be cautious in general. I think this was children experiencing something new and handling it like dolts. I'm not saying what they did was OK, it isn't, but I'm still firmly in the "wow this is a lot of thought being put into children being dumb" camp.
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Post by silicondream on Mar 6, 2022 11:10:14 GMT
Refugee children in a deprived environment. As I said, the fact that they are refugees in an alien environment should make them cautious... I mean, if you were forced to leave Earth by a nuclear war, and had to migrate to planet Kepler-452b, which happens to be inhabited by alien Squid People... would you go out and pick fights with these? Or, would you try to avoid any trouble with them...?
These elf kids have the survival instincts of an inbred chihuahua.
Depends. Did the squids nuke Earth because they hadn't been stood up to and was getting cocky? Or because they hadn't been held properly and was getting lonely? Hard to say whether squids need scaring or pleasing. What you mean, the squids didn't nuke Earth? Wasn't elves. These elf kids have the survival instincts of an inbred chihuahua. Chihuahuas is the 34th most common dog breed in the states, bruv, and one of the most recognizable! They's top survivors. a pupil contracts and reddens in the dying light. Or Wight. wevs. |
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Post by mordekai on Mar 6, 2022 20:55:07 GMT
These elf kids have the survival instincts of an inbred chihuahua. Chihuahuas is the 34th most common dog breed in the states, bruv, and one of the most recognizable! They's top survivors. a pupil contracts and reddens in the dying light. Or Wight. wevs.In my experience, most chihuahuas have a tendency to attack dogs twenty times their weight they meet on the street... |
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Post by Runningflame on Mar 6, 2022 21:05:24 GMT
It isn't usually a sign the people involed or there culture or entire race is one thing or another, it's just that knowing how to act when young is hard. And once you know how to act, consistently remembering what you know and acting accordingly is even harder. |
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Post by DonDueed on Mar 7, 2022 15:16:47 GMT
Chihuahuas is the 34th most common dog breed in the states, bruv, and one of the most recognizable! They's top survivors. a pupil contracts and reddens in the dying light. Or Wight. wevs.In my experience, most chihuahuas have a tendency to attack dogs twenty times their weight they meet on the street... And they often win. |
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