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Post by csj on Jan 4, 2022 1:17:02 GMT
Looking forward to nihilist bodhisattva, sitting in a French café with a beret reading Sartre. when they start reciting slam poetry we know the Court is lost |
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Anthony
Full Member
No, not THAT guy.
Posts: 112
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Post by Anthony on Jan 4, 2022 4:29:56 GMT
Beings like Coyote being able to break the rules does seem a bit unjust. I mean, even the magical authorities seem to be annoyed by Coyote's powers, so... |
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Post by jda on Jan 4, 2022 7:03:51 GMT
so, it WAS the first conclusion, it lead to the second, that was that this all is a friggin bunch of nonsense
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Post by maxptc on Jan 4, 2022 8:00:13 GMT
Then Coyote would break that frontier, and the scientists would get drunk. When they sobered up, they would start from the beginning... or they would seek a new job where they don't have to deal with Coyote... So what your theory means to me is the Shadowmen aren't just a realistic interpretation of how humanity would respond to Coyete, but they are also the only known force trying to save science as a concept in the GK universe. I didn't expect to side with the shadowmen, but I don't want to live in a world where peer review suddenly meant nothing because maybe Krampus was just messing with Jeff's test results and oh, up is now equal to blue because Coyote said so. |
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Post by netherdan on Jan 4, 2022 11:23:48 GMT
The way Renard is speaking just shows he spent some time with Kat
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Post by theonethatgotaway on Jan 4, 2022 13:25:30 GMT
... and oh, up is now equal to blue because Coyote said so. Eerm, sorry man, but that was yesterday, up is now updog. (*snickers*) |
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Post by mordekai on Jan 4, 2022 15:51:43 GMT
Then Coyote would break that frontier, and the scientists would get drunk. When they sobered up, they would start from the beginning... or they would seek a new job where they don't have to deal with Coyote... So what your theory means to me is the Shadowmen aren't just a realistic interpretation of how humanity would respond to Coyete, but they are also the only known force trying to save science as a concept in the GK universe. I didn't expect to side with the shadowmen, but I don't want to live in a world where peer review suddenly meant nothing because maybe Krampus was just messing with Jeff's test results and oh, up is now equal to blue because Coyote said so. Getting angry at Coyote is human, but not very scientific. True science would demand that they keep trying to understand and explain the Ether, rather than rejecting it altogether... |
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Post by shaihulud on Jan 4, 2022 16:04:56 GMT
Basically Coyote won't stop playing Calvin Ball and so the court is just gonna flip the table and rage quit.
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Post by maxptc on Jan 4, 2022 16:30:23 GMT
So what your theory means to me is the Shadowmen aren't just a realistic interpretation of how humanity would respond to Coyete, but they are also the only known force trying to save science as a concept in the GK universe. I didn't expect to side with the shadowmen, but I don't want to live in a world where peer review suddenly meant nothing because maybe Krampus was just messing with Jeff's test results and oh, up is now equal to blue because Coyote said so. Getting angry at Coyote is human, but not very scientific. True science would demand that they keep trying to understand and explain the Ether, rather than rejecting it altogether... What do you mean by true science? I mostly agree with you, the deductive/research aspects of science in its pure form always strives to understand. But other types of science, the more physical sciences, want to have consistent rules to test against, that aren't going to be altered at a whim. Wanting to remove ether from the equation instead of trying to understand the how makes sense for say, building engineering. An ether based being changing the meaning of structural integrity for example is just an inconvenience regardless of the how. A scientist in a magic world just wanting to stop that entirely instead of understanding the how would make perfect sense to me. |
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Post by mturtle7 on Jan 4, 2022 19:20:34 GMT
My own take on the question which seems to be burning through a lot of this thread: no, Aata and Shell aren't actually scientists. They never CLAIMED to be scientists, or to be championing the cause of science. They're just claiming that the Ether(/enlightenment/magic/whatever) is arbitrary and nonsensical, and therefore, unjust. Without clear, consistent, laws which people can understand and act upon, widespread justice simply isn't possible - you don't need a scientist to tell you that. How can you punish a being to whom physical laws are mere suggestions? How can you reward one whose very existence is inscrutable to you? How can you use magic for the betterment of humanity, when it seems like the ones with the greatest control over it are literally inhuman, and have no stake in humanity's continued survival? These aren't necessarily questions that a scientist would ask, but they're definitely ones that a bodhisattva should ask in GC's world, and that's how we got to the point where we are now.
There's a reason that religions around the world tend to assume that any omnipotent god is also omnibenevolent - not because it's logical, but because if a being exists who is sapient, omnipotent, and NOT omnibenevolent...well, that makes it kind of hard for the rest of us sapient beings to hope for any sort of meaningful lives in our futures! Small wonder that Aata's pissed, if you ask me.
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Post by shaihulud on Jan 4, 2022 21:21:28 GMT
It makes me think of reverse gnosticism. Instead of rejecting the material world as evil, and striving to embrace a higher spiritual realm, they reject the ether as evil/unjust and so escape into the material.
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Post by alevice on Jan 4, 2022 22:02:02 GMT
That we know of so far. Given there are rituals to have souls dissolve into the ether to keep the world spinning and some patterns like gods being able to manifest with enough belief, I would say that they havent figured out the "rules". That coyote needed a chaotic array to keep the forest strong, and an orderly pattern like ysengrims affects it, leads further into it |
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Post by saardvark on Jan 4, 2022 22:51:33 GMT
I wonder if it is bit like the Court/SM are insisting reality is described by classical mechanics, very deterministic and predictable, while Coyote/Forest/ether saying its described by quantum mechanics, more probabilistic and uncertain (chaotic?) and indeterminate - you can pinpoint understanding of one thing and then some other aspect escapes you entirely (Heisenberg uncertainty). Reality, of course, is described by both- each in their own "realm" where best applied. So they are both right, but only part; both are needed for a complete picture/understanding of GCU.
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Post by warrl on Jan 5, 2022 0:25:24 GMT
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Post by TBeholder on Jan 5, 2022 7:28:30 GMT
Beings like Coyote being able to break the rules does seem a bit unjust. ...but why would anyone think reality in the GCU would be just? It's the language of envy. |
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Post by theonethatgotaway on Jan 5, 2022 8:20:01 GMT
That we know of so far. Given there are rituals to have souls dissolve into the ether to keep the world spinning and some patterns like gods being able to manifest with enough belief, I would say that they havent figured out the "rules". That coyote needed a chaotic array to keep the forest strong, and an orderly pattern like ysengrims affects it, leads further into it Addendum to rule #1: The only rules that apply to anything supernatural are the ones imposed on it by belief. Addendum to the addendum: there are no rules or limits to the rules that one can apply by belief. Man thinks Coyote is an all-powerful creature? Hey presto, he is! Man thinks there must be something happening to his "soul" after he dies? Hocus-pocus, here come the psychopumps! It's all self-actualisation. I believe there's a monster in the Wood that's made up of wet fire! And it has existed for 2000 years! Simsalabim, did you never before hear of the Aquafire? It's been said to be the cause and solution to many mysterious forest and brush fires. Or at least, that's how I'm dealing with everything for now. Not saying that's how it will work out in the end, but it just really seems like there's no point in arguing about it or trying to study it and look for a fixed set of data/rules. Gillitie Forest is a faerie tale, and its' heroes and villians are only limited or empowered by the vastness of our own imagination. And that, sport, you can't put a number on that. P.S.: Addendum #3: you CAN kinda quantify aether and physically kinda manipulate it (see the Testing Station, the Coyote Capture Device, the bouys in The Torn Sea,...) PHYSICALLY, but you'll not get the results you want. That's like measuring how much water is in a bathtub by punching it. |
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Post by rosesonthewall on Jan 5, 2022 10:32:06 GMT
Not related to any point, but I really like your avatar! |
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Post by TBeholder on Jan 5, 2022 12:48:55 GMT
The first 5 entries in guestbook:
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Post by aline on Jan 5, 2022 13:25:49 GMT
Getting angry at Coyote is human, but not very scientific. True science would demand that they keep trying to understand and explain the Ether, rather than rejecting it altogether... What do you mean by true science? I mostly agree with you, the deductive/research aspects of science in its pure form always strives to understand. But other types of science, the more physical sciences, want to have consistent rules to test against, that aren't going to be altered at a whim. Wanting to remove ether from the equation instead of trying to understand the how makes sense for say, building engineering. An ether based being changing the meaning of structural integrity for example is just an inconvenience regardless of the how. A scientist in a magic world just wanting to stop that entirely instead of understanding the how would make perfect sense to me. I'm an engineer and I don't "want" consistent rules. You *discover* how the world works and then you deal with it. And then you build things based on it. Like Anja's computer. Or whatever Kat has been doing which largely integrates etheric stuff into the process, and does change things in predictable ways. And as we discovered with the whole Annie/Rey ownership contract, the ether does have rules. It's a matter of discovering them. As for what "makes sense", how many of you can explain to me exactly why gravity works the way it does? We know what it does, how it applies to things in the world, but why exactly do objects attract each other depending on their masses? Why do some particle have mass and others not? Are we supposed to call magic everything we don't understand 100%? |
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Post by pyradonis on Jan 5, 2022 19:17:59 GMT
... and oh, up is now equal to blue because Coyote said so. Eerm, sorry man, but that was yesterday, up is now updog. (*snickers*) Hmm? What's updog?
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Post by theonethatgotaway on Jan 5, 2022 19:44:33 GMT
Eerm, sorry man, but that was yesterday, up is now updog. (*snickers*) Hmm? What's updog?
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Post by fia on Jan 5, 2022 20:20:19 GMT
Scientists usually question their theories about the world when things don't match up. They don't look at the world and tell it to get a grip and run in a way that seems more logical. [...] And it might be forever beyond humans to describe etheric phenomenons for some in-universe reason, but so what? Past humans, all the way from the man dying in the desert to Newton, have shaped the world by seeing it through different lenses: animal personification, laws of physics, fantastical realms, cardboard play-pretend, etc. Like, if each person's eye is glued to a camera that lets them see the things around them... the ether IS the lens. So it's no wonder it's so hard for the court to understand. If the lens is glued to your face, how do you see the lens itself? And what is world without the ether? Without a lens, what can be seen? At the most basic/literal, we experience the world through the five senses. With none of the senses - without sight, hearing, smell, taste, or touch... well, it's truly an "unseen" world. It's a bit thornier than that even, because we can study things like perception and how we process perception. Those are (or are highly correlated with, depending on your metaphysics) physical processes that can be studied with physical tools. The ether seems a bit more like something they can measure quantities of (per today's new page) but not the contents or laws of. So, perhaps a bit more like consciousness. In a sense it is "a lens through which we see;" in another sense, it is the literal "I" or "we," without which we do not exist. That would explain why Renard calls it the "fabric of existence". It is existence. It is the things that are, being-itself. How do you study being-itself, if it is nonphysical? Well who the heck knows. Some philosophers think they know, but don't read too much Kant or Heidegger, they'll make your brain hurt. And anyway the ether in GC seems to transcend being-in-itself or being-for-itself or Dasein or whatever sort of predicate you want to use for existence, because it's not just consciousness/awareness/existing/being but also a kind of power that is diversified within itself and actually contains multiple beings with different levels of power or abilities. |
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Post by batsugars on Jan 6, 2022 3:07:29 GMT
Not related to any point, but I really like your avatar! Haha thanks!! I found it on Antimony's wikia page, not sure when Tom drew it though. I'm always rereading old chapters and making new connections from them, so it feels nice to have both these Annies accounted for. (Oh god what if Loup had split Annie into present-Annie and chapter-1-Annie instead, ohh noo) |
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Post by warrl on Jan 6, 2022 4:58:40 GMT
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