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Post by maxptc on Nov 16, 2021 1:46:30 GMT
The Court is super dedicated to actually moving, so thats big respect to them. Honestly them moving away from what they see as an unhealthy relationship is very likely the least evil big plan reveal I've encountered. I assume the plan is bigger then just moving, but I hold real hope that they just want a safer place to study, away from the madness of the Forest.
Oh also, Zimmy does seems like a good Coyete stand in etheric power source, or equivalent of.
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Post by jda on Nov 16, 2021 22:43:58 GMT
I'm afraid that "the other sources" would be all the kids in the special classes, the elves, etc. "No matter the cost" while looking Annie in the eyes. To me, it means: You. You are the cost we are willing to pay. As Lord Farquaad put it:  |
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Post by mturtle7 on Nov 17, 2021 1:00:13 GMT
The Court is super dedicated to actually moving, so thats big respect to them. Honestly them moving away from what they see as an unhealthy relationship is very likely the least evil big plan reveal I've encountered. I assume the plan is bigger then just moving, but I hold real hope that they just want a safer place to study, away from the madness of the Forest. Oh also, Zimmy does seems like a good Coyete stand in etheric power source, or equivalent of. Haha, yeah, I think I commented on how hilariously non-evil this whole reveal is in the last page thread. Although, I don't think I properly conveyed that I think they probably are up to some other (borderline?) evil things besides moving, it's just that none of those are immediately relevant to or changed by the present situation. Highly unethical experiments, surveillance programs, etc., are just kind of par for the course for the Court, but the BIG plan, which is going to affect everybody very soon is, indeed, literally just moving house.
Also, fun fact: Jones once compared Zimmy to Coyote while explaining how Zimmy's powers worked...but she also compared her to Renard. So there is at least one other good target besides Zimmy available... |
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manabi
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Post by manabi on Nov 17, 2021 1:02:11 GMT
The Court is definitely coming across here as being so obsessed with its great goal (whatever it is) that it's ignoring everything else, such as the safety and well-being of its people. A sort of "All that matters is our Cause, and to achieve that Cause, we will sacrifice everything - our people, right and wrong - everything." That fits right in with their attitude from the beginning. Even though they condemned Jean and her love to a horrific situation that the court thought/hoped would continue forever, they didn't care at all about the suffering those two would suffer. |
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Post by drmemory on Nov 17, 2021 5:07:45 GMT
I really don't think they need a huge amount of ether to move. Moving vans don't use ether! More likely, they are currently using ether for stuff, powering Omega for one thing but I'm sure there are many others, and once they move away from where they are they will lose their current source of ether. Not sure if that is the forest or what - maybe the Seed Bismuth is around still and emits ether, or maybe it requires ether? So if they move, they'll get away from all the pesky forest critters, and anything else not totally human (which does not bode well for the Foley students and alumni, nor for Annie and others), but will still need ether for whatever they use it for now. Or maybe for a new Seed. The other big question, of course, is why they feel they must move to start with. Again, I find this idea of only taking humans along to be very ominous. At least it might explain why Aata using etheric powers would get him thrown out of the court! It publicly showed him to be other than fully human.
I feel like they don't really have an issue using ether for stuff, they just want it to be totally under human control. Which is consistent with some of Aata's remarks... So if you walk around in a suit with a smug look on your face and use ether-powered machine, you're fine. If you can reach or appear in the unseen world, NOT fine.
I wonder if any of this reflects all the way back to what the people that founded the court were fleeing from?
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Post by todd on Nov 17, 2021 12:50:42 GMT
I wonder if any of this reflects all the way back to what the people that founded the court were fleeing from?
I've sometimes wondered whether the Court's founders really were fleeing something; the fact that the Forest they "just happened to take refuge in" happened to have something that interested them scientifically seems too convenient. Were they running *towards* Gillitie Wood and its secrets? Maybe they invented the story about fleeing troubles in the outside world do dupe the forest-folk into granting them sanctuary. |
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Post by drmemory on Nov 18, 2021 17:37:31 GMT
I wonder if any of this reflects all the way back to what the people that founded the court were fleeing from?
I've sometimes wondered whether the Court's founders really were fleeing something; the fact that the Forest they "just happened to take refuge in" happened to have something that interested them scientifically seems too convenient. Were they running *towards* Gillitie Wood and its secrets? Maybe they invented the story about fleeing troubles in the outside world do dupe the forest-folk into granting them sanctuary. Maybe? It does seem a bit coincidental that they would have just stumbled on to this nest of gods and other powerful creatures. I don't think we've ever gotten any information about whether they knew about the ether before then either. The only one we know about that definitely knew anything about the ether in the early days of the court was Diego, and we don't know when or how he learned.
Too bad we don't have better info about what went on back then. Maybe it's time to go beg help from the Norns? Except that the people that care most about that are the readers, not the uprooted forest creatures and the humans whose home has largely been destroyed.
Any real knowledge about what went on back when the court was founded would be in the hands of the inner circle of the court, whoever THAT is. I'd have to guess that one of them was Aata, who may or may not have just gotten booted. Also the cranky headmaster. Perhaps his bad attitude about the animals is more telling than was previously thought.
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Post by warrl on Nov 19, 2021 1:09:31 GMT
Per Coyote, he heard of Reynard and Ysengrim, and traveled to France to meet them. They decided to follow him, and he traveled to England and settled near Gunnerkrigg Court because the Court was doing something interesting.
(In a number of mythologies, the single biggest problem with being immortal is BOREDOM.)
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Post by blahzor on Nov 19, 2021 21:48:48 GMT
how long did they have Rey captured? they must have been disappointed with the amount of ether from hime
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Post by drmemory on Nov 20, 2021 7:25:28 GMT
how long did they have Rey captured? they must have been disappointed with the amount of ether from hime They didn't start working on that until after Renard killed that man, right? Which seems like it would be before the whole Tony+Surma thing. I mean she sorta gave off a single vibe then, and had the right clothes, I think? I'm sure someone will correct me if not.  But, I'm guessing that was probably within a year of the Tony/entymology/entomology events. Again, I'm guessing based on the clothes and the assumption that Renard wouldn't have tried that if he knew Surma was already in love. Also, Surma probably wouldn't have participated in the trap if she was already in love with Tony, unless she was in a lot deeper with the court than we've seen. Could be wrong about either or both of those assumptions, of course.
Anyway, I'd guess the upper bound of his captivity time would be the age of Annie when we first met her + 1 year. A little googling reveals that UK children can start boarding school as young as 7 or 8, which looks sorta plausible? So maybe Renard was captive up to... 9 years, plus or minus 1? If anyone has better info, have at it!
If that sequence of events is correct (Renard gets body hopping power, kills dude so he can court Surma, instead freaks her out, gets captured, Surma goes on bug hunt with Tony, they fall in love, things happen and Annie is born and grows up in hospital to stay close, Surma dies and Annie starts school), then he was captive for years.
If I remember right, the court didn't want Renard as a mana battery, but just to prevent him from being in the forest, because they knew Coyote kept trying to give him more power, and unlike Coyote he wasn't bound to not attack the court. If they really had more advanced motives, like expecting they'd be able to suck energy from him once in captivity, then they probably weren't real happy with the outcome! If they really did just want to not have Coyote power up another animal to Coyote levels, then their plan actually more or less worked. |
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Post by drmemory on Nov 20, 2021 7:36:04 GMT
Speaking of large amounts of Coyote power moving around... Coyote gave Ysengrin just the one power, that of super-gardening more or less. Controlling trees to a high level? Whatever. Anyway, Ysengrin didn't handle it well, and never got more. Aside from the shaking, I can't think that staying in a tree body all the time was a good thing either - it certainly did his fur no favors! So why then did Coyote keep offering power to Renard? Lots of his power, perhaps all? It seems like he skipped a step or two there, not giving him a little power and seeing how he handled it first, but the mind of Coyote is beyond us so who knows. It just seems like Renard having a better attitude about the humans/ants isn't enough for Coyote to assume he can be trusted with huge amounts of power. But, again, I'm not a god or whatever he is, so who knows?
I guess the easy answer (sorta) is precognition. If Coyote could see the future possibilities and probabilities, which seems likely, then he knew in advance how everyone would jump. Perhaps the current timeline is the best that he could come up with.
Of course, this means we can't trust ANYTHING he said, because his motives were different than what we were led to think all along. Coyote doesn't lie (supposedly) but he certainly doesn't explain why he does things.
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Post by blahzor on Nov 20, 2021 9:50:11 GMT
Speaking of large amounts of Coyote power moving around... Coyote gave Ysengrin just the one power, that of super-gardening more or less. Controlling trees to a high level? Whatever. Anyway, Ysengrin didn't handle it well, and never got more. Aside from the shaking, I can't think that staying in a tree body all the time was a good thing either - it certainly did his fur no favors! So why then did Coyote keep offering power to Renard? Lots of his power, perhaps all? It seems like he skipped a step or two there, not giving him a little power and seeing how he handled it first, but the mind of Coyote is beyond us so who knows. It just seems like Renard having a better attitude about the humans/ants isn't enough for Coyote to assume he can be trusted with huge amounts of power. But, again, I'm not a god or whatever he is, so who knows?
I guess the easy answer (sorta) is precognition. If Coyote could see the future possibilities and probabilities, which seems likely, then he knew in advance how everyone would jump. Perhaps the current timeline is the best that he could come up with. Of course, this means we can't trust ANYTHING he said, because his motives were different than what we were led to think all along. Coyote doesn't lie (supposedly) but he certainly doesn't explain why he does things.
Far as we know he doesn't lie so the danger of him is what he's purposely leaving out of the truth |
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Post by blahzor on Nov 20, 2021 13:21:44 GMT
No, I think that's backwards.[...] You know what they say on reddit...? "Username checks out."  But if you read the penultimate and the current page together, I believe it's clear that they first need the Ether before moving. SHELL: All the humans are going to leave the Court. Across the ocean, to start again. A new Court. They've already started. ANNIE: Why would you need Coyote's power to do that? SHELL: Because it's a huge source of Ether.
Thinking of this again. If they will go along with it no matter if they get coyote power they probably have been storing it up and will move in chunks and probably the school people last |
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Post by DonDueed on Nov 20, 2021 21:08:57 GMT
how long did they have Rey captured? they must have been disappointed with the amount of ether from hime Anyway, I'd guess the upper bound of his captivity time would be the age of Annie when we first met her + 1 year. A little googling reveals that UK children can start boarding school as young as 7 or 8, which looks sorta plausible? So maybe Renard was captive up to... 9 years, plus or minus 1? If anyone has better info, have at it! Annie's first year is described as "Year 7". Assuming schooling in the UK begins around age 5, that would make Annie 11 or 12 in her first year. So it would seem Renard was held captive for at least 12 or 13 years. |
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Post by drmemory on Nov 20, 2021 22:58:20 GMT
Anyway, I'd guess the upper bound of his captivity time would be the age of Annie when we first met her + 1 year. A little googling reveals that UK children can start boarding school as young as 7 or 8, which looks sorta plausible? So maybe Renard was captive up to... 9 years, plus or minus 1? If anyone has better info, have at it! Annie's first year is described as "Year 7". Assuming schooling in the UK begins around age 5, that would make Annie 11 or 12 in her first year. So it would seem Renard was held captive for at least 12 or 13 years. Ok, fair enough. Let's try some math:
Let A = time after the Renard creepy stalker incident until he is captured Let B = time after Renard capture until Annie is born Let C = time after Annie is born until she starts school (Year 7, which would put her at 11 or 12, as you say)
Time of captivity, is A + B + C, approximately, ignoring smaller chunks of time between big events
What puzzles me is, how long is C? Did Annie really live in the hospital for 11 years or more? I think I remember her telling Kat that before she started at Gunnerkrigg, she lived in the hospital with her mother because they couldn't bear to be parted. That just seems like a long time to be a guest in a hospital, or however that worked. It's implied that she just stayed there from birth, or even before, until GC time.
Poor Renard! That's a long time in solitary! I guess they couldn't really let him out on parole or anything, even with just the one power, as it is such a dangerous power. Also, he was in a body with good fighting capability.
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Post by drmemory on Nov 20, 2021 23:10:10 GMT
Of course, this means we can't trust ANYTHING he said, because his motives were different than what we were led to think all along. Coyote doesn't lie (supposedly) but he certainly doesn't explain why he does things. Far as we know he doesn't lie so the danger of him is what he's purposely leaving out of the truth Yes, that, and his attempts to intentionally mislead. Coyote is a master of saying things that leave a certain impression, which is the one he wants people to have, without actually lying. Master rules lawyer! Very Aes Sedai-like actually.
We've never seen anyone ask him anything at all about the birds, or time even, as far as I can remember. Nobody would even think to ask him if he knew about Annie falling off the bridge and being saved by Tic Tocs, as a normal human would probably just mention it. So there's an example of something he knows far more about than the other characters, that only we were shown (him slapping the Tic Toc out of the air, I mean). If you think about it, knowing about that incident, we also know he orchestrated the whole encounter in which he first met Annie in the court, as well as Ysengrin's behavior then and the dropping of the seeds. So there are huge things he's been involved in or even initiated that nobody realizes he had anything to do with at all! Just an innocent little cartoon puppy, trying to rein in mean old Ysengrin!
I guess my point there was, he doesn't leave out only minor things, but also doesn't talk about major topics unless someone thinks to ask him directly. In addition to the smaller lies of omission, and his ever-so-carefully phrased responses.
Even with all of that, I miss Coyote. It really still seems like his motives for all of this are good, even if he is quite the puppet master. Plus, he's really funny, and the only character in this entire thing with a real sense of humor!
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Post by mturtle7 on Nov 21, 2021 0:15:38 GMT
Speaking of large amounts of Coyote power moving around... Coyote gave Ysengrin just the one power, that of super-gardening more or less. Controlling trees to a high level? Whatever. Anyway, Ysengrin didn't handle it well, and never got more. Aside from the shaking, I can't think that staying in a tree body all the time was a good thing either - it certainly did his fur no favors! So why then did Coyote keep offering power to Renard? Lots of his power, perhaps all? It seems like he skipped a step or two there, not giving him a little power and seeing how he handled it first, but the mind of Coyote is beyond us so who knows. It just seems like Renard having a better attitude about the humans/ants isn't enough for Coyote to assume he can be trusted with huge amounts of power. But, again, I'm not a god or whatever he is, so who knows?
I guess the easy answer (sorta) is precognition. If Coyote could see the future possibilities and probabilities, which seems likely, then he knew in advance how everyone would jump. Perhaps the current timeline is the best that he could come up with.
Of course, this means we can't trust ANYTHING he said, because his motives were different than what we were led to think all along. Coyote doesn't lie (supposedly) but he certainly doesn't explain why he does things.
Coyote thought Renard was awesome because he was fundamentally a trickster, similar to Coyote, and therefore obviously worthy of Coyote's trickster powers. Ysengrin was fundamentally primed to be the butt of the trickster's jokes, so Coyote treated him as such. I don't think he ever explicitly stated those points, but regardless, I'm pretty sure his motives weren't really as inscrutable as one might expect. |
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Post by warrl on Nov 21, 2021 0:23:06 GMT
Speaking of large amounts of Coyote power moving around... Coyote gave Ysengrin just the one power, that of super-gardening more or less. Controlling trees to a high level? Whatever. Anyway, Ysengrin didn't handle it well, and never got more. Aside from the shaking, I can't think that staying in a tree body all the time was a good thing either - it certainly did his fur no favors! So why then did Coyote keep offering power to Renard? Lots of his power, perhaps all? It seems like he skipped a step or two there, not giving him a little power and seeing how he handled it first, but the mind of Coyote is beyond us so who knows. It just seems like Renard having a better attitude about the humans/ants isn't enough for Coyote to assume he can be trusted with huge amounts of power. But, again, I'm not a god or whatever he is, so who knows?
I guess the easy answer (sorta) is precognition.
Or, alternatively, looking at the background. In the original Belgian/French narrative (the exact origin location is hard to pin down after several centuries), Ysengrin was an overly-officious priest who abused his religious authority for his personal aggrandizement, pleasure, and profit. Reynard, on the other hand, was a trickster whose actions can frequently be construed as trying to teach Ysengrin some humility, or to prevent or undo some of the harm Ysengrin caused to others. Coyote is also known as a comparatively-benevolent trickster. |
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Post by saardvark on Nov 21, 2021 2:20:25 GMT
Ok, fair enough. Let's try some math:
Let A = time after the Renard creepy stalker incident until he is captured Let B = time after Renard capture until Annie is born Let C = time after Annie is born until she starts school (Year 7, which would put her at 11 or 12, as you say)
Time of captivity, is A + B + C, approximately, ignoring smaller chunks of time between big events
What puzzles me is, how long is C? Did Annie really live in the hospital for 11 years or more? I think I remember her telling Kat that before she started at Gunnerkrigg, she lived in the hospital with her mother because they couldn't bear to be parted. That just seems like a long time to be a guest in a hospital, or however that worked. It's implied that she just stayed there from birth, or even before, until GC time.
Poor Renard! That's a long time in solitary! I guess they couldn't really let him out on parole or anything, even with just the one power, as it is such a dangerous power. Also, he was in a body with good fighting capability.
Surma got weaker as Annie grew, so it seems quite possible that for a while after Annie was born, Surma as relatively fine and didn't need to be hospitalized. Since Annie did say she lived in the hospital with her mother, she may have little memory of this earlier time... but early memories are often hazy or forgotten. Annie might have been at home with Surma til age 3 to 5 or so... so 6 to 9 years in the hospital, which is still quite a while! |
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Post by DonDueed on Nov 21, 2021 3:46:20 GMT
Annie's first year is described as "Year 7". Assuming schooling in the UK begins around age 5, that would make Annie 11 or 12 in her first year. So it would seem Renard was held captive for at least 12 or 13 years. Ok, fair enough. Let's try some math:
Let A = time after the Renard creepy stalker incident until he is captured Let B = time after Renard capture until Annie is born Let C = time after Annie is born until she starts school (Year 7, which would put her at 11 or 12, as you say)
Time of captivity, is A + B + C, approximately, ignoring smaller chunks of time between big events Couple of quibbles: Time of captivity, by those definitions, is B + C -- unless you can explain how he was in captivity prior to being captured.
Also, we might also include D = time he was captive in Annie's plushie, prior to accepting the role of familiar (the Saslamel incident). That tacks on a few more years, during which he slowly came to terms with the situation and saw it as fitting penance for his attack on Annie.
As you say, though, poor Renard. No wonder he took his shot at freedom by trying to possess Annie. How many of us wouldn't have done the same?
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Post by DonDueed on Nov 21, 2021 3:59:30 GMT
Ok, fair enough. Let's try some math:
Let A = time after the Renard creepy stalker incident until he is captured Let B = time after Renard capture until Annie is born Let C = time after Annie is born until she starts school (Year 7, which would put her at 11 or 12, as you say)
Time of captivity, is A + B + C, approximately, ignoring smaller chunks of time between big events
What puzzles me is, how long is C? Did Annie really live in the hospital for 11 years or more? I think I remember her telling Kat that before she started at Gunnerkrigg, she lived in the hospital with her mother because they couldn't bear to be parted. That just seems like a long time to be a guest in a hospital, or however that worked. It's implied that she just stayed there from birth, or even before, until GC time.
Poor Renard! That's a long time in solitary! I guess they couldn't really let him out on parole or anything, even with just the one power, as it is such a dangerous power. Also, he was in a body with good fighting capability.
Surma got weaker as Annie grew, so it seems quite possible that for a while after Annie was born, Surma as relatively fine and didn't need to be hospitalized. Since Annie did say she lived in the hospital with her mother, she may have little memory of this earlier time... but early memories are often hazy or forgotten. Annie might have been at home with Surma til age 3 to 5 or so... so 6 to 9 years in the hospital, which is still quite a while! I don't think it's ever been explained how Annie got her first six years of schooling. Did she go to a primary school close to the hospital? Was she "home"schooled in the hospital? Was there a private tutor? Did the doctors and nurses pitch in to help? I can't imagine Tony doing much (if any) of the teaching himself as he was obsessed with finding a cure for Surma and apparently spent little time with Annie. |
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Post by pyradonis on Nov 21, 2021 4:20:23 GMT
Surma got weaker as Annie grew, so it seems quite possible that for a while after Annie was born, Surma as relatively fine and didn't need to be hospitalized. Since Annie did say she lived in the hospital with her mother, she may have little memory of this earlier time... but early memories are often hazy or forgotten. Annie might have been at home with Surma til age 3 to 5 or so... so 6 to 9 years in the hospital, which is still quite a while! According to Annie, Surma was bedridden after the birth. She might not have been hospitalized immediately, although it would have made sense, as Tony had all his (Court-sponsored) resources and equipment there which he used to try and find a cure. I don't think it's ever been explained how Annie got her first six years of schooling. Did she go to a primary school close to the hospital? Was she "home"schooled in the hospital? Was there a private tutor? Did the doctors and nurses pitch in to help? I can't imagine Tony doing much (if any) of the teaching himself as he was obsessed with finding a cure for Surma and apparently spent little time with Annie. On the same page I linked to up there, Annie says that her mother "taught her all she could", which is usually interpreted as homeschooling. They didn't start working on that until after Renard killed that man, right? Which seems like it would be before the whole Tony+Surma thing. I mean she sorta gave off a single vibe then, and had the right clothes, I think? I'm sure someone will correct me if not. According to "Get Lost", she was in a relationship with James when she went to Brazil with Tony, and then ditched James for Tony. Renard believed for years that Tony had used "trickery" to "lure" Surma away from him. Which, as you said, is strange somehow - did Surma never tell him she was together with James? |
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Post by mturtle7 on Nov 22, 2021 20:42:45 GMT
Surma got weaker as Annie grew, so it seems quite possible that for a while after Annie was born, Surma as relatively fine and didn't need to be hospitalized. Since Annie did say she lived in the hospital with her mother, she may have little memory of this earlier time... but early memories are often hazy or forgotten. Annie might have been at home with Surma til age 3 to 5 or so... so 6 to 9 years in the hospital, which is still quite a while! According to Annie, Surma was bedridden after the birth. She might not have been hospitalized immediately, although it would have made sense, as Tony had all his (Court-sponsored) resources and equipment there which he used to try and find a cure. I don't think it's ever been explained how Annie got her first six years of schooling. Did she go to a primary school close to the hospital? Was she "home"schooled in the hospital? Was there a private tutor? Did the doctors and nurses pitch in to help? I can't imagine Tony doing much (if any) of the teaching himself as he was obsessed with finding a cure for Surma and apparently spent little time with Annie. On the same page I linked to up there, Annie says that her mother "taught her all she could", which is usually interpreted as homeschooling. They didn't start working on that until after Renard killed that man, right? Which seems like it would be before the whole Tony+Surma thing. I mean she sorta gave off a single vibe then, and had the right clothes, I think? I'm sure someone will correct me if not. According to "Get Lost", she was in a relationship with James when she went to Brazil with Tony, and then ditched James for Tony. Renard believed for years that Tony had used "trickery" to "lure" Surma away from him. Which, as you said, is strange somehow - did Surma never tell him she was together with James? I mean, given that Surma was deliberately trying to seduce Renard on the Court's orders, telling him she already had a boyfriend would be pretty counter-productive. On the other hand, it's possible that he knew about James, but just decided that it wasn't that serious between them, and he alone was Surma's "true" love.
Also, in response to all the discussion about Annie's homeschooling and life in the hospital...it's actually kind of funny how little the comic touches on how INCREDIBLY WEIRD Annie's freaking childhood was. Not that being homeschooled is weird, of course, but...well, let me make this a list: -literally living inside a hospital her entire life, probably going out into the rest of the city rarely if at all
-learning martial arts and biology from her constantly busy, neurodivergent, father -learning mythology and folklore from her bedridden mother
-learning lockpicking (I wonder if that was Tony or Surma?) so she could break into forbidden rooms of the hospital -her only friends were dying patients, and their psychopomps whom only she (and her mother, and spirits) could see
The only real consequences of all this that we see in the comic is that Annie's kind of socially awkward, completely clueless about anything to do with pop culture, and rather oddly familiar at a young age with gruesome medical operations, slightly obscure mythology, and martial arts throws. So it's kind of easy to forget that, unlike us readers, she doesn't really see the Court from the lens of "normal society"...if anything, her life suddenly became a lot MORE typical after she moved to the Court.
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Post by drmemory on Nov 23, 2021 2:09:26 GMT
Also, in response to all the discussion about Annie's homeschooling and life in the hospital...it's actually kind of funny how little the comic touches on how INCREDIBLY WEIRD Annie's freaking childhood was. Not that being homeschooled is weird, of course, but...well, let me make this a list: -literally living inside a hospital her entire life, probably going out into the rest of the city rarely if at all
-learning martial arts and biology from her constantly busy, neurodivergent, father -learning mythology and folklore from her bedridden mother
-learning lockpicking (I wonder if that was Tony or Surma?) so she could break into forbidden rooms of the hospital -her only friends were dying patients, and their psychopomps whom only she (and her mother, and spirits) could see
The only real consequences of all this that we see in the comic is that Annie's kind of socially awkward, completely clueless about anything to do with pop culture, and rather oddly familiar at a young age with gruesome medical operations, slightly obscure mythology, and martial arts throws. So it's kind of easy to forget that, unlike us readers, she doesn't really see the Court from the lens of "normal society"...if anything, her life suddenly became a lot MORE typical after she moved to the Court. The martial arts item is the one that has always bugged me. Did that take place in the hospital? Or what?
Lockpicking could perhaps have been learned from a psychopomp. Or from a bedridden old thief? That one didn't bug me as much. Mythology and folklore also probably came from her psychopomp friends - in fact I remember her saying something about that being how she learned languages, and other things.
Agree that this is almost certainly why she started out so socially awkward. She didn't seem to have an other kids to play with at any point.
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Post by drmemory on Nov 23, 2021 2:13:56 GMT
They didn't start working on that until after Renard killed that man, right? Which seems like it would be before the whole Tony+Surma thing. I mean she sorta gave off a single vibe then, and had the right clothes, I think? I'm sure someone will correct me if not. According to "Get Lost", she was in a relationship with James when she went to Brazil with Tony, and then ditched James for Tony. Renard believed for years that Tony had used "trickery" to "lure" Surma away from him. Which, as you said, is strange somehow - did Surma never tell him she was together with James? Agreed. Whether she was with James or Tony, it seems odd that she wouldn't mention it (unless the court told her not to as part of their plan). It seems like she was with James starting pretty early, based on the class photo incident. Best guess - she was with James with the body-snatching incident happened, and under orders to lure Renard into the court.
I wonder how the court thought that would work? Did they foresee him taking over a body so he would be a criminal, and thus, justifiably imprisoned? When Renard was in his original body I have to think it would have been hard to hold him, and that Coyote would have objected to any attempt to do so. Maybe they thought that him falling in love would be enough?
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Post by pyradonis on Nov 23, 2021 11:58:27 GMT
According to Annie, Surma was bedridden after the birth. She might not have been hospitalized immediately, although it would have made sense, as Tony had all his (Court-sponsored) resources and equipment there which he used to try and find a cure. On the same page I linked to up there, Annie says that her mother "taught her all she could", which is usually interpreted as homeschooling. According to "Get Lost", she was in a relationship with James when she went to Brazil with Tony, and then ditched James for Tony. Renard believed for years that Tony had used "trickery" to "lure" Surma away from him. Which, as you said, is strange somehow - did Surma never tell him she was together with James? I mean, given that Surma was deliberately trying to seduce Renard on the Court's orders, telling him she already had a boyfriend would be pretty counter-productive. On the other hand, it's possible that he knew about James, but just decided that it wasn't that serious between them, and he alone was Surma's "true" love.
Also, in response to all the discussion about Annie's homeschooling and life in the hospital...it's actually kind of funny how little the comic touches on how INCREDIBLY WEIRD Annie's freaking childhood was. Not that being homeschooled is weird, of course, but...well, let me make this a list: -literally living inside a hospital her entire life, probably going out into the rest of the city rarely if at all
-learning martial arts and biology from her constantly busy, neurodivergent, father -learning mythology and folklore from her bedridden mother
-learning lockpicking (I wonder if that was Tony or Surma?) so she could break into forbidden rooms of the hospital -her only friends were dying patients, and their psychopomps whom only she (and her mother, and spirits) could see
The only real consequences of all this that we see in the comic is that Annie's kind of socially awkward, completely clueless about anything to do with pop culture, and rather oddly familiar at a young age with gruesome medical operations, slightly obscure mythology, and martial arts throws. So it's kind of easy to forget that, unlike us readers, she doesn't really see the Court from the lens of "normal society"...if anything, her life suddenly became a lot MORE typical after she moved to the Court.
Well analyzed! This is likely often overlooked by most of us readers. Specifically about the question whether Surma would tell Renard about her boyfriend despite attempting to seduce him - I always read it as them having been friends before Renard fell in love, and that Surma initially rejected his advances. That's how the page where she names him "Reynardine" felt to me at least. I imagined that just one day the Shadow Men came to her and were like "Sooo, this guy whom Coyote apparently tries to gift one of his powers is madly in love with you, yes? Do you think he would come to the Court if he thought you loved him back?"
I wonder how the court thought that would work? Did they foresee him taking over a body so he would be a criminal, and thus, justifiably imprisoned? When Renard was in his original body I have to think it would have been hard to hold him, and that Coyote would have objected to any attempt to do so. Maybe they thought that him falling in love would be enough? My personal theory is that the Court expected one of two things to happen: Either Renard screws up and hurts someone, so they can justify imprisoning him, or he doesn't, but follows Surma around like a doggy and they control him through her. With the amendment that the Court likely did not expect anyone to die through the bodysnatching power, after all when Coyote had used it on a living being it never was harmed. They probably planned to simply declare Renard guilty of stealing someone's bodily autonomy and identity, possibly still enough to justify detaining him in their eyes.
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Post by drmemory on Nov 23, 2021 16:26:39 GMT
I wonder how the court thought that would work? Did they foresee him taking over a body so he would be a criminal, and thus, justifiably imprisoned? When Renard was in his original body I have to think it would have been hard to hold him, and that Coyote would have objected to any attempt to do so. Maybe they thought that him falling in love would be enough? My personal theory is that the Court expected one of two things to happen: Either Renard screws up and hurts someone, so they can justify imprisoning him, or he doesn't, but follows Surma around like a doggy and they control him through her. With the amendment that the Court likely did not expect anyone to die through the bodysnatching power, after all when Coyote had used it on a living being it never was harmed. They probably planned to simply declare Renard guilty of stealing someone's bodily autonomy and identity, possibly still enough to justify detaining him in their eyes.
Ah, but the body snatching power wasn't in play at that time. That's why I'm so puzzled. Renard asked Coyote for it so he could be with Surma, right? That's why I'm puzzled by this - I don't quite get what they thought would happen, before he asked for that power. Did they even know getting that specific power was a possibility? Did they have some ability to foresee the future?
"Imprisoned Renard" would be a lot more effective than "Puppy Crush Renard" but I don't see how they could predict that as an option.
If they didn't expect anyone to die, as you say, and didn't have foreknowledge about the body snatching thing, then we're left with "follow her around with a crush". Which would have required Surma to keep up the facade, and possibly eventually act on it, which seems like a pretty harsh thing to ask of a girl that is not trained as a spy, who also has a boyfriend.
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Post by pyradonis on Nov 24, 2021 19:42:37 GMT
My personal theory is that the Court expected one of two things to happen: Either Renard screws up and hurts someone, so they can justify imprisoning him, or he doesn't, but follows Surma around like a doggy and they control him through her. With the amendment that the Court likely did not expect anyone to die through the bodysnatching power, after all when Coyote had used it on a living being it never was harmed. They probably planned to simply declare Renard guilty of stealing someone's bodily autonomy and identity, possibly still enough to justify detaining him in their eyes.
Ah, but the body snatching power wasn't in play at that time. That's why I'm so puzzled. Renard asked Coyote for it so he could be with Surma, right? That's why I'm puzzled by this - I don't quite get what they thought would happen, before he asked for that power. Did they even know getting that specific power was a possibility? Did they have some ability to foresee the future?
"Imprisoned Renard" would be a lot more effective than "Puppy Crush Renard" but I don't see how they could predict that as an option.
If they didn't expect anyone to die, as you say, and didn't have foreknowledge about the body snatching thing, then we're left with "follow her around with a crush". Which would have required Surma to keep up the facade, and possibly eventually act on it, which seems like a pretty harsh thing to ask of a girl that is not trained as a spy, who also has a boyfriend.
Hmm, it's possible I misremembered something. At least Coyote had long since tried to gift Renard power(s). I assume the Court knew about this. I think somewhere it was said that they wanted to control Renard because they feared he could take up Coyote's offer. But didn't we recently learn that in reality all this was staged precisely to get hold of a part of Coyote's power? Man, I'm so confused right now. Perhaps someone else has a clearer mind and finds the important pages. Who knows, maybe Omega told them Renard would take one of Coyote's powers if Surma reciprocated his romantic attraction...
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Post by lurkerbot on Nov 26, 2021 4:17:29 GMT
Hmm, it's possible I misremembered something. At least Coyote had long since tried to gift Renard power(s). I assume the Court knew about this. I think somewhere it was said that they wanted to control Renard because they feared he could take up Coyote's offer. is described on the next page after Surma vamping Renard. |
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But, I'm guessing that was probably within a year of the Tony/entymology/entomology events. Again, I'm guessing based on the clothes and the assumption that Renard wouldn't have tried that if he knew Surma was already in love. Also, Surma probably wouldn't have participated in the trap if she was already in love with Tony, unless she was in a lot deeper with the court than we've seen. Could be wrong about either or both of those assumptions, of course.
