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Post by madjack on May 31, 2021 7:03:40 GMT
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Post by speedwell on May 31, 2021 7:07:30 GMT
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Post by philman on May 31, 2021 7:07:33 GMT
Back to the reality bending forest then, what is the Court planning to do with this?
I am looking forward to seeing Coyote's second message and the end of Loup though!
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Post by arf on May 31, 2021 7:18:57 GMT
Will we get to see the knife come into play?
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Post by aline on May 31, 2021 8:18:20 GMT
Really looking forward to finding out about Coyote's wonderful plan
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Post by flowsthead on May 31, 2021 8:18:46 GMT
Will we get to see the knife come into play? I doubt it will be that quick to happen this chapter, but technically the knife has already come into play. Creating Shadow is no small feat. The knife might be necessary for the Omega Device, but since Loup has already accepted his death, maybe the knife won't be necessary for that? |
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Post by Druplesnubb on May 31, 2021 8:42:04 GMT
Oh boy
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Post by todd on May 31, 2021 12:43:37 GMT
As I mentioned in another thread, I think that the lake water is the memory of Coyote's tooth (we know from the Goosebone chapter that it's the memory of something). It would explain why Loup hasn't asked for it back, the way he's asked for the rest of Coyote's gifts back; he doesn't know about it, because Coyote had removed that memory a while before Ysengrin killed him and became Loup.
Coyote's message to Loup in the Goosebone chapter suggested that Loup's death would follow quickly upon his receiving the lake water, which suggests that Loup may die in this chapter. If so, that would probably bring us closer to the end, though we don't know for certain; will Loup's death be the final event in the "external conflict" portion of "Gunnerkrigg Court"? Or will it be succeeded by a new problem (say, the consequences of the Court activating the Omega Device)?
(I counted the chapters in each volume - except the first, which was a special case - and found that each volume had eight to ten chapters. We've just finished what will be the third chapter of Volume Nine, so there are most likely six or seven more chapters left in this volume. Will that be enough to round up the story, making Volume Nine the last? It's too early to tell.)
If Annie *does* have to use the tooth against Loup - while it'd obviously be a solemn moment (all the more so since, while she's not that fond of Loup, she'd much rather see him returned to his original self as Ysengrin rather than killed), we might be in for a remark somewhere along the lines of "Well, her last name *is* Carver".
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on May 31, 2021 12:50:29 GMT
The chapter title says lake water, the chapter cover shows an enigmatic thing in the forest, and the chapter thumbnail is the vial of lake water.
So... robots?
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Post by aline on May 31, 2021 13:13:32 GMT
If Annie *does* have to use the tooth against Loup - while it'd obviously be a solemn moment (all the more so since, while she's not that fond of Loup, she'd much rather see him returned to his original self as Ysengrin rather than killed), we might be in for a remark somewhere along the lines of "Well, her last name *is* Carver". I don't see Annie killing anyone. If anybody actively kills Loup, it might be the Court. But there may be something completely different at play, a chain of events we can't really predict, like how Ysengrin died because he ate Coyote. In a way he killed himself, and Loup might do the same. But for sure, Coyote's tooth must be a key part of Coyote's wonderful plan. He went to some pains to prevent Ysengrin from finding out about it. We just don't know that it was meant to kill anybody. The tooth is so sharp it turned a shadow into a three-dimensional being. It might be capable of recreating something like the Annaan Waters. Maybe it won't cut a god's life, but something else equally uncutable. |
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Post by todd on May 31, 2021 13:27:27 GMT
If Annie *does* have to use the tooth against Loup - while it'd obviously be a solemn moment (all the more so since, while she's not that fond of Loup, she'd much rather see him returned to his original self as Ysengrin rather than killed), we might be in for a remark somewhere along the lines of "Well, her last name *is* Carver". I don't see Annie killing anyone. If anybody actively kills Loup, it might be the Court. I've speculated on the possibility of the Court "booby-trapping" the lake water (maybe adding some drops of de-etherized rain water left over from the Power Station experiments); it would fit in with their decision to take over. |
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Post by pyradonis on May 31, 2021 15:29:53 GMT
If Annie *does* have to use the tooth against Loup - while it'd obviously be a solemn moment (all the more so since, while she's not that fond of Loup, she'd much rather see him returned to his original self as Ysengrin rather than killed), we might be in for a remark somewhere along the lines of "Well, her last name *is* Carver". Does she even carry the Tooth around with her, though?
If Annie *does* have to use the tooth against Loup - while it'd obviously be a solemn moment (all the more so since, while she's not that fond of Loup, she'd much rather see him returned to his original self as Ysengrin rather than killed), we might be in for a remark somewhere along the lines of "Well, her last name *is* Carver". I don't see Annie killing anyone. If anybody actively kills Loup, it might be the Court. But there may be something completely different at play, a chain of events we can't really predict, like how Ysengrin died because he ate Coyote. In a way he killed himself, and Loup might do the same. But for sure, Coyote's tooth must be a key part of Coyote's wonderful plan. He went to some pains to prevent Ysengrin from finding out about it. We just don't know that it was meant to kill anybody. The tooth is so sharp it turned a shadow into a three-dimensional being. It might be capable of recreating something like the Annaan Waters. Maybe it won't cut a god's life, but something else equally uncutable. Indeed. Everyone who has been around in this forum long enough should remember how before Loup appeared, people were regularly speculating about the Tooth's purpose being to cut Jones. |
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Post by sebastian on May 31, 2021 16:10:08 GMT
I don't see Annie killing anyone. If anybody actively kills Loup, it might be the Court. I've speculated on the possibility of the Court "booby-trapping" the lake water (maybe adding some drops of de-etherized rain water left over from the Power Station experiments); it would fit in with their decision to take over. Loup said that the only thing that can kill him is himself, so I doubt that that trick would do something other than annoy him. |
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Post by shadow3 on May 31, 2021 19:11:54 GMT
I really hope that Renard drinks the lake water (perhaps in his original body) and also gains Coyote's strength so that we can have a battle of the titans.
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Post by bedinsis on May 31, 2021 19:24:51 GMT
Back when the Shadow Men took the lake water I thought that:
1. The Shadow Men would perform experiments on it, hoping to find out more about divinity.
2. They hoped to cut out Annie entirely, since she is hard to control.
3. After the experiments had gone horribly wrong, they would come to the realization that employing Annie was after all their best option.
4. They would send her to the forest to return the water.
The way the bald Shadow Man person looked in control at the last page makes me think my earlier prediction was wrong. I now wonder if Zimmy's merge of Annie C and Annie F was amplified by the court's access to the lake water. After all, they have been doing experiments which greatly disturbed Zimmy after they got the lake water. I'd be a bit more okay with that; Coyote had the power to split Annie, access to his essence might be enough to merge them.
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V
Full Member
I just think it's a pity that she never wore these again.
Posts: 168
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Post by V on May 31, 2021 20:02:08 GMT
I think we keep collectively forgetting that there is one more thing Loup explicitly asked for. Annie may not but he certainly keeps that in mind so I presume that's what he demands next. There's still plenty of time for the knife to come into play. I very much disbelieve that the goose bone > lake water > ? chain was only to delay the memory of the knife. The timing would be unpredictable, and how much serious Coyote was about Ysengrin never learning of it, it would be weird if he had no problem with simply giving the memory to Loup out of his control. |
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Post by warrl on May 31, 2021 20:32:14 GMT
If Annie *does* have to use the tooth against Loup - while it'd obviously be a solemn moment (all the more so since, while she's not that fond of Loup, she'd much rather see him returned to his original self as Ysengrin rather than killed), we might be in for a remark somewhere along the lines of "Well, her last name *is* Carver". I don't think this qualifies as a wild speculation: if and when Annie uses the Tooth against Loup, she will kill Loup per se... but Coyote and Ysengrin will live on, as separate beings. |
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Post by todd on May 31, 2021 23:56:24 GMT
I've speculated on the possibility of the Court "booby-trapping" the lake water (maybe adding some drops of de-etherized rain water left over from the Power Station experiments); it would fit in with their decision to take over. Loup said that the only thing that can kill him is himself, so I doubt that that trick would do something other than annoy him. Assuming that Annie passed that information on to the Court, the Court might be taking a tone of "He *thinks* that nothing but himself can kill him" and believe that the de-etherized rain water or something like that might do the trick. (Which could lead to Loup "exploding" in a way that covers the Court officials present from head to toe with his "remains", then re-forming and having a nasty laugh at their expense - while possibly reflecting that he's really thinking too much like a trickster rather than a serious general ever since he became Loup.) Since the tooth belonged to Coyote, and Loup is part-Coyote, could that mean.... |
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Post by todd on May 31, 2021 23:58:06 GMT
I very much disbelieve that the goose bone > lake water > ? chain was only to delay the memory of the knife. The timing would be unpredictable, and how much serious Coyote was about Ysengrin never learning of it, it would be weird if he had no problem with simply giving the memory to Loup out of his control. Yes, I've thought myself "What if the goose bone had been the difficult-to-access object instead of the lake water? Even Coyote couldn't have arranged that, could he?" |
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Post by todd on Jun 1, 2021 0:02:41 GMT
I don't think this qualifies as a wild speculation: if and when Annie uses the Tooth against Loup, she will kill Loup per se... but Coyote and Ysengrin will live on, as separate beings. I've been wondering as well whether Loup's death would lead to Coyote and Ysengrin's return. Knowing Coyote, he'd probably have some plan for un-dying so that he could continue doing things in the regular world - all the more so given those cases in world mythology where gods who die then return to life, cases which you can be certain Coyote would enjoy emulating. Which does lead to one crazy little vision I've had, assuming that Coyote and Ysengrin do get restored: Coyote decides afterwards that he'd like to run off and have fun somewhere other than Gillitie Wood, and finally talks Renard into succeeding him as the person in charge of the Forest - meaning, to Ysengrin's utter horror, that Renard is now his boss. I don't know if the story would actually take that turn, but it'd be a lot of fun to see Ysengrin's response if it did. In looking back, by the way, to the moment where Coyote gave Annie his tooth, on this page (https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=685) I noticed Coyote telling Annie "I want you to keep in mind the *real* Ysengrin!" Will that instruction play some key point in Annie's meetings with Loup to come? |
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Post by Gemminie on Jun 1, 2021 4:56:27 GMT
Well. So the Court is finally going to do it. I guess we know what "we can now continue" with. I guess we'll see how they'll proceed.
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Post by Gemminie on Jun 1, 2021 4:59:00 GMT
Yes, I've thought myself "What if the goose bone had been the difficult-to-access object instead of the lake water? Even Coyote couldn't have arranged that, could he?" Perhaps the goose bone contains the memory that the lake water is another memory, and the lake water contains the memory that the goose bone is another memory. That would be very Coyote. |
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Post by sebastian on Jun 1, 2021 8:30:43 GMT
I very much disbelieve that the goose bone > lake water > ? chain was only to delay the memory of the knife. The timing would be unpredictable, and how much serious Coyote was about Ysengrin never learning of it, it would be weird if he had no problem with simply giving the memory to Loup out of his control. Yes, I've thought myself "What if the goose bone had been the difficult-to-access object instead of the lake water? Even Coyote couldn't have arranged that, could he?" I think this is another Dead-Goose-in-the-lake scenario. He is faking being Loup, but is faking so well, that he forgot he is not Coyote. Or something like that. This could mean that he 'knew where the bone and the water were and it 'knew' how to grow the trees so the water was harder to reach. |
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Post by pyradonis on Jun 1, 2021 9:07:30 GMT
Yes, I've thought myself "What if the goose bone had been the difficult-to-access object instead of the lake water? Even Coyote couldn't have arranged that, could he?" Perhaps the goose bone contains the memory that the lake water is another memory, and the lake water contains the memory that the goose bone is another memory. That would be very Coyote. It would also be very frustrating. After the last chapter, readers are aching for something that brings the plot forward. |
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Post by philman on Jun 1, 2021 11:09:08 GMT
If Annie *does* have to use the tooth against Loup - while it'd obviously be a solemn moment (all the more so since, while she's not that fond of Loup, she'd much rather see him returned to his original self as Ysengrin rather than killed), we might be in for a remark somewhere along the lines of "Well, her last name *is* Carver". I don't think this qualifies as a wild speculation: if and when Annie uses the Tooth against Loup, she will kill Loup per se... but Coyote and Ysengrin will live on, as separate beings. Annie isn't a killer,she is a pshychopomp, she ferries the dead to the other side, she is not the one to kill them in the first place. Well, except for that time when she summoned Ketrak and Muut I guess |
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Post by Gemminie on Jun 1, 2021 14:11:10 GMT
Perhaps the goose bone contains the memory that the lake water is another memory, and the lake water contains the memory that the goose bone is another memory. That would be very Coyote. It would also be very frustrating. After the last chapter, readers are aching for something that brings the plot forward. The last chapter didn't advance the plot? Anyway, I'm just trying to think of how Coyote could have set this up without knowing which gift would be returned first. Or maybe he did know which one would be returned first, somehow. Can Coyote predict the future? He hasn't exhibited that ability to any huge degree as far as we've seen. He seems to prefer to be surprised by the future. Though I guess that doesn't mean he can't see the future; it just means he doesn't do it a lot. It really can't be just "oh, the goose bone is another memory," because that would contradict what Coyote himself said. As I'm sure we all remember, he said that the lake water contains the memory of a plan, and that when Loup learns of that plan he'll agree that it's an excellent plan, and that then he'll die. Coyote could have set things up such that the plan won't be revealed until he gets both pieces, no matter which order he gets them in. I've been wondering why Loup's forehead symbol changed shape as soon as Coyote revealed the goose bone's memory to him; perhaps that has something to do with it. Nobody in-story referred to the changed forehead shape, so perhaps Loup himself can't sense that it's different, because it's part of what Coyote did. Maybe both the bone and the water have contingencies like "if his forehead mark has changed, reveal the plan, else change the mark." But will Loup actually get the lake water this chapter, as opposed to a fake lake water simulacrum that the Court has cooked up? Though one would think that he'd be able to tell right away by some ethereal means. So the fake water seems unlikely to work, so the Court probably wouldn't try that. If he does get it back, will he actually ingest it, or will he be reluctant to do so because it will lead to his death? Perhaps he's going to hold out on doing that until he gets Renard's possession power back too. If he does ingest the water, he'll get the memory of the plan back – but is that plan actually Coyote's plan, or just some other plan? He'll agree that it's an excellent plan – but Coyote doesn't say that he'll agree immediately; maybe it'll take some convincing or some further plot developments. And then he'll die – but how will that happen, and in what sense? And again, Coyote didn't say immediately, so what events will take place causing him to die? Coyote doesn't lie, but he also doesn't tell the truth. (It's weird to me that in English, there are single words such as "lie" and "liar," but there aren't single words for "tell the truth," "true statement," or "someone who tells the truth." There is "honest," though, and its antonym, "dishonest," is based on it rather than being a completely unique word.) |
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Post by ctso74 on Jun 1, 2021 15:06:50 GMT
If he does get it back, will he actually ingest it, or will he be reluctant to do so because it will lead to his death? Perhaps he's going to hold out on doing that until he gets Renard's possession power back too. I rather like that idea. If Renard uses the opportunity to take Loup's body, then ingests the Water, Coyote may pop up congratulating Renard, as that was the memory(and the plan) all along. I wonder if Renard would do that though? He's had a bit of character growth, and sees his past actions as abhorrent. But would he trust Loup with such a deadly weapon? |
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Post by sebastian on Jun 1, 2021 16:04:55 GMT
It would also be very frustrating. After the last chapter, readers are aching for something that brings the plot forward. The last chapter didn't advance the plot? Anyway, I'm just trying to think of how Coyote could have set this up without knowing which gift would be returned first. Or maybe he did know which one would be returned first, somehow. Can Coyote predict the future? He hasn't exhibited that ability to any huge degree as far as we've seen. He seems to prefer to be surprised by the future. Though I guess that doesn't mean he can't see the future; it just means he doesn't do it a lot. if he know where the gifts are and he know how Loup think (and I think it does) he could have set up things so the the bone would have been easier to recover than the lake water and /or than you need Loup to kick off the elves from the forest to be able to recover the water. I think the correct term is the Batman Gambit (TV-trope link. Be warned).
Maybe hel'll die in the sense " Oh, wait, I was Coyote all this time."  |
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Post by pyradonis on Jun 1, 2021 20:14:45 GMT
It would also be very frustrating. After the last chapter, readers are aching for something that brings the plot forward. The last chapter didn't advance the plot? Not in my opinion, no. It mainly reiterated, summarized and discussed the topic of the relationship between Annie and her father, and concluded in Annie's monologue what she now thinks about him. I didn't see the plot advancing except on the last page, and even that is almost superfluous considering the new chapter's title is basically enough to realize the Shadow Men are ready to give Loup the lake water and enact whatever scheme they have most certainly cooked up. |
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Post by todd on Jun 2, 2021 0:04:48 GMT
But will Loup actually get the lake water this chapter, as opposed to a fake lake water simulacrum that the Court has cooked up? Though one would think that he'd be able to tell right away by some ethereal means. So the fake water seems unlikely to work, so the Court probably wouldn't try that. If he does get it back, will he actually ingest it, or will he be reluctant to do so because it will lead to his death? Perhaps he's going to hold out on doing that until he gets Renard's possession power back too. If he does ingest the water, he'll get the memory of the plan back – but is that plan actually Coyote's plan, or just some other plan? He'll agree that it's an excellent plan – but Coyote doesn't say that he'll agree immediately; maybe it'll take some convincing or some further plot developments. And then he'll die – but how will that happen, and in what sense? And again, Coyote didn't say immediately, so what events will take place causing him to die? Coyote doesn't lie, but he also doesn't tell the truth. (It's weird to me that in English, there are single words such as "lie" and "liar," but there aren't single words for "tell the truth," "true statement," or "someone who tells the truth." There is "honest," though, and its antonym, "dishonest," is based on it rather than being a completely unique word.) The Court might be arrogant enough to try giving Loup the fake water, with a tone of "He's just a performing animal - one that can do a lot of damage, but still an animal. He's no match for us humans in intelligence." (Though at least they haven't tried convincing themselves that Coyote and Ysengrin weren't really speaking but just making growling and howling noises of the kind that regular coyotes and wolves make - then do such a good job of convincing themselves that that they become incapable of hearing Coyote and Ysengrin speaking.) And, yes, good point about how Loup's death need not immediately follow upon him getting the lake water. I suspect that a lot of that will depend on whether this is to be the final volume (Volume Nine) or whether there'll be at least one more volume after this one; Loup's death by the end of this chapter might support the former (might, because Loup's death doesn't necessarily mean the end of the "adventure" part of the story; it might be followed by an even bigger crisis like the Omega Device having some alarming side effects that the Court can't control, for example). |
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