[2469] My father. My family.

[V]

A love-hate relationship, then?

I guess it's easier to be fixated on a non-ideal family member when it's the only one there is...

[imaginaryfriend]

I think that Antimony means she won't hate on people just for not liking her dad. Nice.

[V]

I meant the first panel where she admits there were moments when hate was what she felt for Tony.

[arf]

Jones is probably the only person of Annie's acquaintance* who hasn't expressed an opinion on the subject.
I suppose if there's one thing Jones has learned over time, it's patience.

* Yes, there's Don**, but even he's expressed frustration at times.
** Oh, all right. And Surma.

[imaginaryfriend]

Come to think of it, there's a decent chance Jones was consulted on the plan to bring Anthony back and through doing so rein in Antimony. Since it happened she probably approved.

[antiyonder]

May 19, 2021 7:13:44 GMT arf said:

Jones is probably the only person of Annie's acquaintance* who hasn't expressed an opinion on the subject.
I suppose if there's one thing Jones has learned over time, it's patience.

See now for some reason I'm expecting Tom to have her comment at the end of the page, but cutting off before we get her opinion.

And a page note from Tom saying "Oh I'm sorry. Did you want to hear what she had to say?".

* Yes, there's Don**, but even he's expressed frustration at times.

So I wonder if Don ever dropped some salty comments, maybe even in Kat's presence:-D.

[bicarbonat]

I've genuinely, genuinely forgotten why it was so imperative for Jones to go on this Breaking Dawn "gathering of the witnesses" quest.

What are y'all going to do to Tony? Think badly at him? Force him to teach speech & debate?

[basser]

Jones just chillin like "I literally didn't ask".

[imaginaryfriend]

May 19, 2021 7:24:33 GMT bicarbonat said:

I've genuinely, genuinely forgotten why it was so imperative for Jones to go on this Breaking Dawn "gathering of the witnesses" quest.

What are y'all going to do to Tony? Think badly at him? Force him to teach speech & debate?

Not sure this is really about Anthony except tangentially. Jones is on Psych Patrol over Antimony's mental state because people are curious about her/their... recombination.

[nobodyforever123]

I wonder how loud she's talking. Is this one of those moments where Anthony is right behind the door, listening to everything she has said?

[antiyonder]

May 19, 2021 7:37:42 GMT imaginaryfriend said:

May 19, 2021 7:24:33 GMT bicarbonat said:

I've genuinely, genuinely forgotten why it was so imperative for Jones to go on this Breaking Dawn "gathering of the witnesses" quest.

What are y'all going to do to Tony? Think badly at him? Force him to teach speech & debate?

Not sure this is really about Anthony except tangentially. Jones is on Psych Patrol over Antimony's mental state because people are curious about her/their... recombination.

No kidding. Hasn't anyone else here experienced that?:-D

[speedwell]

May 19, 2021 7:37:43 GMT nobodyforever123 said:

I wonder how loud she's talking. Is this one of those moments where Anthony is right behind the door, listening to everything she has said?

[Jones gives Anthony a blinker stone and a quick primer on how to use it] Give me ten minutes, then look through it.... I just wanted this side of you to see her. I'm not sure how else you would.

[imaginaryfriend]

May 19, 2021 7:37:43 GMT nobodyforever123 said:

I wonder how loud she's talking. Is this one of those moments where Anthony is right behind the door, listening to everything she has said?

I'm thinking yes. Or maybe he was standing there outside the door the whole time.

Doesn't matter, though, if all this is just a means to get Antimony to open up about her mental state. Anthony should be something of a known quantity to Jones even before they talk in this chapter... even if the words "mind cage" have never come up before she must know what he's like.

[bicarbonat]

May 19, 2021 7:37:42 GMT imaginaryfriend said:

May 19, 2021 7:24:33 GMT bicarbonat said:

I've genuinely, genuinely forgotten why it was so imperative for Jones to go on this Breaking Dawn "gathering of the witnesses" quest.

What are y'all going to do to Tony? Think badly at him? Force him to teach speech & debate?

Not sure this is really about Anthony except tangentially. Jones is on Psych Patrol over Antimony's mental state because people are curious about her/their... recombination.

It just seems very useless - the interviewing, based on what you've said, pivoted almost immediately from the subject of interest with the excuse that her father's the only concerning trigger that all of these people can think of. Yet what is all of that sturm und drang accomplishing (aside from a bit of "stagehand push-brooming Act 1 debris in full view of the audience to make way for Act 2")?

Annie herself has said that she's at peace with her dad + has acted as one who is at peace. Yet they not only fail to perceive/believe that as truth, they present this kind of cart-before-horse "Well, if she did have issues, it'd have something to do with Tony"

And not...you know, the everything else? Survivor's guilt re: her mom? Jeanne's psychic smash re: the Court's soul-mutilating practices? Losing her mentor in horrific fashion? Unease at how easily Court and Forest leaders manhandle individual agency (including hers)? Heck, even getting humiliated by Janet's own wastebasket of a father when Annie's 1 source of "worth" was briefly cut from under her (further linked to her deep shame re: academic "inferiority"). And that's just stuff that the interviewees would know.

[guntherkrieg]

May 19, 2021 8:55:55 GMT bicarbonat said:

May 19, 2021 7:37:42 GMT imaginaryfriend said:

Not sure this is really about Anthony except tangentially. Jones is on Psych Patrol over Antimony's mental state because people are curious about her/their... recombination.

It just seems very useless - the interviewing, based on what you've said, pivoted almost immediately from the subject of interest with the excuse that her father's the only concerning trigger that all of these people can think of. Yet what is all of that sturm und drang accomplishing (aside from a bit of "stagehand push-brooming Act 1 debris in full view of the audience to make way for Act 2")?

Annie herself has said that she's at peace with her dad + has acted as one who is at peace. Yet they not only fail to perceive/believe that as truth, they present this kind of cart-before-horse "Well, if she did have issues, it'd have something to do with Tony"

And not...you know, the everything else? Survivor's guilt re: her mom? Jeanne's psychic smash re: the Court's soul-mutilating practices? Losing her mentor in horrific fashion? Unease at how easily Court and Forest leaders manhandle individual agency (including hers)? Heck, even getting humiliated by Janet's own wastebasket of a father when Annie's 1 source of "worth" was briefly cut from under her (further linked to her deep shame re: academic "inferiority"). And that's just stuff that the interviewees would know.

Them: I wish everything wasn't tied up in her dad
Also them: She's acting differently because of her dad!

[silicondream]

May 19, 2021 7:02:31 GMT V said:

A love-hate relationship, then?

Most relationships are, if they last long enough. Annie's never been good at recognizing her own feelings of hatred, let alone processing them, so it's great to see her honing her skills. (And she and Tony have a lot to teach each other in that area.)

May 19, 2021 7:13:44 GMT arf said:

Jones is probably the only person of Annie's acquaintance* who hasn't expressed an opinion on the subject.
I suppose if there's one thing Jones has learned over time, it's patience.

That, and Jones doesn't validate. (Though I sometimes suspect that "What I think has no importance" is Jonespeak for "I think you're being an idiot fleshbag right now, but it would be counterproductive to say so.")

May 19, 2021 8:21:52 GMT speedwell said:

May 19, 2021 7:37:43 GMT nobodyforever123 said:

I wonder how loud she's talking. Is this one of those moments where Anthony is right behind the door, listening to everything she has said?

[Jones gives Anthony a blinker stone and a quick primer on how to use it] Give me ten minutes, then look through it.... I just wanted this side of you to see her. I'm not sure how else you would.

Alas, not everyone can use a blinker stone, and Jones and Don are among the ungifted. Given Tony's general etheric failness, I'm sure he is as well.

TONY: "Ah, but suppose I surgically replace one of my eyes with the stone? Direct connection to the optic nerve and all?"

JONES: "Anthony."

TONY: "...I mean when you think about it, it's not like I really deserve both eyes...just need to find a demon to walk me through the finer details...I'm sure they won't trick me into permanently replacing half my visual field with a mind-blasting hyperdimensional kaleidoscope of Annieness or anything like that..."

JONES: "Oh, for eternity's sake. Just use the nannycam."

JONES stomps on Renard's tail, Renard's eyes light up and project the last six pages onto the wall

Seriously, if Tony's eavesdropping, it's probably just via Renard repeating the conversation to him. I'd like to think that's one of the reasons Annie sent him inside.

[speedwell]

May 19, 2021 9:55:12 GMT silicondream said:

Code fail... the thing Silicondream said was "Given Tony's general etheric failness..."

That's a misconception... in fact we have seen him be singularly effective at etheric surgery at the direction of what we can only define as etheric beings he communicated with in the Ether. He's labelled as "Ether insensitive" just because he is a nerd, essentially

[yinglung]

May 19, 2021 9:55:12 GMT silicondream said:

TONY: "Ah, but suppose I surgically replace one of my eyes with the stone? Direct connection to the optic nerve and all?"

JONES: "Anthony."

TONY: "...I mean when you think about it, it's not like I really deserve both eyes...just need to find a demon to walk me through the finer details...I'm sure they won't trick me into permanently replacing half my visual field with a mind-blasting hyperdimensional kaleidoscope of Annieness or anything like that..."

JONES: "Oh, for eternity's sake. Just use the nannycam."

JONES stomps on Renard's tail, Renard's eyes light up and project the last six pages onto the wall

Seriously, if Tony's eavesdropping, it's probably just via Renard repeating the conversation to him. I'd like to think that's one of the reasons Annie sent him inside.

It would be quite dysfunctional, but I am rather amused at the idea that Annie and Tony resorting to spycraft and mutual friends to communicate.

"Katerina, I believe my daughter has left a note for me, but it is in a cypher I cannot break. What do you make of this?"
"Did you try the decoder ring I made last time?"
"To no avail. I believe she is using an ethereal variation of the Enigma machine."

[Fishy]

I wonder if Tony ever misses being a surgeon. Though he strikes me more as "I was good at it and it paid well," than "I enjoyed it." An etherically sensitive Tony, though? There's a fun thought...

Also.

[pyradonis]

May 19, 2021 9:55:12 GMT silicondream said:

Seriously, if Tony's eavesdropping, it's probably just via Renard repeating the conversation to him. I'd like to think that's one of the reasons Annie sent him inside.

Doesn't work either, Renard said he can only see what Annie wants him to see via the Familiar-phone.

[todd]

May 19, 2021 7:18:51 GMT imaginaryfriend said:

Come to think of it, there's a decent chance Jones was consulted on the plan to bring Anthony back and through doing so rein in Antimony. Since it happened she probably approved.

Given that Jones openly disagreed with the Headmaster about making Andrew rather than Annie the Court Medium, and then refused to "rein her in" when the Headmaster asked her to, I think it unlikely that the Court leadership included her in its deliberations.

[agasa]

May 19, 2021 9:55:12 GMT silicondream said:

TONY: "Ah, but suppose I surgically replace one of my eyes with the stone? Direct connection to the optic nerve and all?"

JONES: "Anthony."

TONY: "...I mean when you think about it, it's not like I really deserve both eyes...just need to find a demon to walk me through the finer details...I'm sure they won't trick me into permanently replacing half my visual field with a mind-blasting hyperdimensional kaleidoscope of Annieness or anything like that..."

JONES: "Oh, for eternity's sake. Just use the nannycam."

JONES stomps on Renard's tail, Renard's eyes light up and project the last six pages onto the wall

Seriously, if Tony's eavesdropping, it's probably just via Renard repeating the conversation to him. I'd like to think that's one of the reasons Annie sent him inside.

I love you.

[Gemminie]

Again, without reading any other comments ... after talking about how other people probably hate her dad while facing away from Jones, Annie has just suddenly turned around to face her and said that she doesn't care what other people think. Today, she goes on about that. She starts by saying that she understands how others might feel the way they do about Tony, because she's felt the same way from time to time. She's clearly making a distinction here between how you feel toward someone right now and how you feel about them on an ongoing basis. In the foreground we see that empty planter, full of dirt, with nothing growing in it. I want to plant flower seeds there. I might play too much Animal Crossing.

Then Annie walks past Jones and talks away from her some more. She briefly mentions that she knows others say things about Tony because they want what's best for her. But I think a lot of them simply don't know what's best for Annie; even James was hard pressed to decide whether it would be better for Annie if Tony were in her life or out of it.

Annie stops before running into a window and reiterates that what other people feel or say about Tony doesn't matter to her. She doesn't need them to like him. I still think she probably wishes people would like him better; she may be trying to convince herself that it doesn't hurt her when people say bad things about her dad.

In the next frame we can't see her eyes, but we can see that she isn't smiling, and there's a serious tilt. This is a bit odd, because these things suggest something's wrong, but what she's saying is very positive, that she loves him and will continue to. I'm sure some will interpret this as Annie lying to herself, but the way I see it, this is Annie setting herself at odds with the rest of the world. She suspects that the choice she's talking about here will cause conflict, but she doesn't know how or when. She knows there will be those who wouldn't approve of what she's saying now, if they heard it. She's not looking forward to being challenged on her choices or feelings.

Extreme close-up in the final panel, with three flashbacks: one to learning martial arts with Tony, one to when he asked her if she wanted to live in his new evac housing, and one to when he and Forest Annie were cooking dinner. Interestingly (well, to me), these aren't presented as little rectangular frames as the flashbacks in GC often are, but fuzzy-bordered irregular-shaped images on a white background. Annie's stating that she loves him because she's her father and her only living family in the world, as far as she knows. I have to wonder whether she'll be presented with alternatives in the future – perhaps Tony does have family, or perhaps Surma did have family, and they offer to allow Annie to live with them, outside the Court, and go to school in the normal outside world. Complete speculation, of course, but I wonder what Annie would do.

What Annie says in the last two panels reminds me of A Wrinkle in Time: "You don't want him for a reason. You want him because he's your father." Of course, the person saying that, who is trying to dissuade Meg from rescuing her father there, is an evil representative of IT, which is incapable of comprehending the concept of love and is trying to destroy it wherever it finds it in the interest of total conformity, so how applicable it is here is questionable. I'm sure it's possible to interpret what Annie's saying here as something similar, though – she wants a family, and she wants a father, and she's misinterpreting that as love – but I don't think so. She's seen what he's like when not crippled by his disability, so she's got some idea of how that disability warps and twists what he wants and tries to say and do, and it seems she's able to reinterpret everything he's done in that light. Again, this doesn't excuse any of what he's done, nor does it make it all OK, but it does mean that there's a possibility of a healing process ahead. Not an easy one, though.

Actually this reminds me more and more of A Wrinkle in Time, but in a different way. Tony is like Charles Wallace, who is brilliant to the point of arrogance and difficult to like, but his sister Meg loves him anyway. Charles Wallace is prickly, however, rather than wooden.

[rylfrazier]

Today's chapter feels very "at" the readership. As has a lot of this arc. Obviously all books / comics are to some extent for the readers, but this in particular seems to be designed to address the issues a lot of readers have with Tony and Annie's relationship.

I would say that for me it really hasn't been successful. I knew that Tom had decided that he was going to present this as the status quo going forward, and now he has affirmed it. We got a bunch of characters' opinion on Tony and TBH precious little concern for Annie.

Overall I come away from this arc feeling like GC is a colder place than I thought it was - Annie is with a man who basically treats her like furniture, though I guess we now know that from his perspective it's because he has no choice, and her "friends" and "found family" are like basically "well that makes me mad/sad/other but I'm not going to do anything about it." Again, that's something I guess we knew but it seems like making that subtext text isn't something I wanted or needed now that it has happened.

[flowsthead]

May 19, 2021 9:55:12 GMT silicondream said:

That, and Jones doesn't validate. (Though I sometimes suspect that "What I think has no importance" is Jonespeak for "I think you're being an idiot fleshbag right now, but it would be counterproductive to say so.")

I took that the opposite way, or at least a neutral way? I was thinking that Jones did not want to influence Annie in any particular direction by justifying a moral decision, but that didn't mean she didn't agree or respect what Annie did. 

[flowsthead]

May 19, 2021 17:29:02 GMT rylfrazier said:

Today's chapter feels very "at" the readership. As has a lot of this arc. Obviously all books / comics are to some extent for the readers, but this in particular seems to be designed to address the issues a lot of readers have with Tony and Annie's relationship.

I would say that for me it really hasn't been successful. I knew that Tom had decided that he was going to present this as the status quo going forward, and now he has affirmed it. We got a bunch of characters' opinion on Tony and TBH precious little concern for Annie.

Overall I come away from this arc feeling like GC is a colder place than I thought it was - Annie is with a man who basically treats her like furniture, though I guess we now know that from his perspective it's because he has no choice, and her "friends" and "found family" are like basically "well that makes me mad/sad/other but I'm not going to do anything about it." Again, that's something I guess we knew but it seems like making that subtext text isn't something I wanted or needed now that it has happened.

Actually, I think this chapter has been really interesting for how much Tony is on everyone's minds. We all knew Eglamore was obsessed, but everyone is talking about it. Technically, Jones was going around asking what people thought of Annie, and every single one of them was bringing up Tony on their own. Part of this is primed by Paz talking about Annie's private life when she probably shouldn't be, but most of it seems to be people not understanding why she would want to live with her father.

Framing this chapter as how the community is reacting to Annie is kind of brilliant.

[silicondream]

May 19, 2021 10:23:45 GMT speedwell said:

May 19, 2021 9:55:12 GMT silicondream said:

Code fail... the thing Silicondream said was "Given Tony's general etheric failness..."

That's a misconception... in fact we have seen him be singularly effective at etheric surgery at the direction of what we can only define as etheric beings he communicated with in the Ether. He's labelled as "Ether insensitive" just because he is a nerd, essentially

...okay, true, being duped by demons into constructing an intercontinental soul-tracking death ray aimed at his daughter is a significant effect of sorts. Pretty sure Tony never aspired to be the ethertech Robert Oppenheimer though, so I'm pretty comfortable calling it a fail. I think "Ether insensitive" may be a euphemism for "Zimmy-class Etheric @#$%-up" in his case.

That said, I do hope he ends up exploiting what he learned! It was costly, but Tony did come up with a way to adjust Annie's connection to the Fire. Suitably medicalized, that might be the trick to letting Phoenix mothers coexist with their daughters for a natural lifespan...and so far, Annie has no other hope for a cure.

Outside of her own efforts, anyway. Her enhanced firepower and newfound splitting skills might do the trick. And it would be wryly appropriate to their relationship if Annie and Tony came up with totally independent cures to her condition, without ever admitting their research to each other.

May 19, 2021 10:50:51 GMT Fishy said:

I wonder if Tony ever misses being a surgeon. Though he strikes me more as "I was good at it and it paid well," than "I enjoyed it."

I'm curious; have you ever met a surgeon who stuck with it for more than a few years and didn't enjoy it? If you can handle the stress and the blood, getting to play God for a good cause is awfully addictive.

May 19, 2021 12:31:34 GMT pyradonis said:

May 19, 2021 9:55:12 GMT silicondream said:

Seriously, if Tony's eavesdropping, it's probably just via Renard repeating the conversation to him. I'd like to think that's one of the reasons Annie sent him inside.

Doesn't work either, Renard said he can only see what Annie wants him to see via the Familiar-phone.

Well, my thought was that Annie might want him to see this. Also, that Annie's never been particularly cautious about granting Renard blanket privileges. Also also, that the Familiar relationship might be slightly less secure than you'd learn from the Quick Start Guide and a split-second glance at a very long contract….

[Angry Individual]

So... when are we going to cut to Tony just standing at the door listening to all of this without Annie realizing?

[saardvark]

May 19, 2021 18:27:23 GMT silicondream said:

That said, I do hope he ends up exploiting what he learned! It was costly, but Tony did come up with a way to adjust Annie's connection to the Fire. Suitably medicalized, that might be the trick to letting Phoenix mothers coexist with their daughters for a natural lifespan...and so far, Annie has no other hope for a cure.

Outside of her own efforts, anyway. Her enhanced firepower and newfound splitting skills might do the trick. And it would be wryly appropriate to their relationship if Annie and Tony came up with totally independent cures to her condition, without ever admitting their research to each other.


Well, my thought was that Annie might want him to see this. 

well, he almost "adjusted" her into an early grave, so I think the method needs some tweaking.  Also, waving the mechanism around (presumably made from his lower arm and hand bones?) so that the "antenna" gets better "reception" would be a bit nasty to contemplate...


Like the idea of collaborative splitting, but Im not sure Annie would want to at this point... she seems quite reconciled to her firey side....

[Fishy]

May 19, 2021 18:27:23 GMT silicondream said:

I'm curious; have you ever met a surgeon who stuck with it for more than a few years and didn't enjoy it? If you can handle the stress and the blood, getting to play God for a good cause is awfully addictive.

Huh, I guess I haven't. Though I haven't met all too many to get a feel for it. Sister and brother-in-law are in the field, and it seems for every funny story there's a stressful one. Seems to be that it's mostly the hours that are killer.

I wrote up a spiel about trying to pinpoint exactly when he became a surgeon (as his memories of the work after he left the Court would no doubt be negatively colored with worrying over Surma's health), before realizing that based on Donny's comments, Tony must have been a surgeon for a decently long time before leaving the Court. Put your way, I could see it being gratifying at the time. I really could imagine a few golden years, towards the end of his time with the Court when he had a good job, a loving wife, plans to get away from all the strange dangers of this place...



Ya can't change the past, and I'm sure no matter how his journey around the world went, there would have been plenty of drama about leaving Annie behind. But I gotta wonder too, how things might have gone differently if it just... all worked out, ya know? Like, imagine, instead of Tony showing up unannounced as a teacher, it's both Tony and Surma coming back together. He wouldn't have been a hero, but I gotta think somewhere in his mind during all of that travel, the thought was "If I can do this, if I can bring Surma back, I can put everything right. I can make it all up to Annie. I can make up for all the wrong." I'm reminded of Gatsby, in a weird way. Not that the Surma in Tony's mind couldn't have been accurate, but I think the idea of her suddenly making it all right again must have been blinding in a way. All of those "I'm sure he has his reasons," and "He must be doing something very important," would've seemed justified, even if it didn't really undo all that'd been done. Maybe after a certain point, it was all just sunk cost fallacy. The thought of coming back with nothing to show for it could've been scarier than failing.