|
|
Post by Gemminie on May 14, 2021 20:50:42 GMT
Also, my larger point was about the comparision with the Mind Cage (that she herself made too!) and no one else seems to have commented on it, so I will express it more clear: In my interpretation this is Annie starting to realize that her father's Mind Cage might have a similar origin as her split from her Fire. She stresses the differences, which do exist, but I think it is more similiar than she makes it out to be. Because I think if she hasn't had friends who supported her and a mentor who took it upon himself to challenge her, the Split might have endured and the distance between might have grown so far she would have great trouble to restore it. I speculate what did happen to Tony is that due to a combination of circumstances and the make-up of his psyche he made a Mind Cage. And because it was there from very young, no one in his environment could or would accurately recognize it and didn't make an attempt to at least rattle his Cage. And through age, the Mind Cage has grown so strong it manifests against his will. I do not think Annie could have undone the Split on her own, and it signals that had Tony managed to form a network of support like Annie has, he might have freed himself from the Cage in time. Basically, I think the Split shows us that Annie could have become like (doesn't mean exactly the same!) Tony if the circumstances were different. Well, let's imagine what might have happened to Annie if nobody had destroyed her blinker stone. I'm not saying Ysengrin, because I think that if Ysengrin hadn't done it, Coyote would have done something about it – it may even be that Ysengrin did it on Coyote's orders, or at least that Coyote manipulated Ysengrin into it. But let's suppose for now that neither of them did anything. Let's imagine an alternate universe in which Coyote decided to wait a bit longer before pushing his plan forward. Suppose he waited to see what Annie would do with her ragefire separated from her. First of all, she'd have been very level-headed and calm, expressing no anger. Could she express other emotions? Probably (we saw her do so), but no anger. There was one spot where other emotions threatened to overwhelm her, but I don't think those would have been anger. Embarrassment, frustration, fear, perhaps sorrow. Second, the main cause of her anger, her father's initial restrictions, were gradually mostly rescinded. In chapter 54, Coyote intervened, and Tony relented, removing his restriction on Annie visiting the Forest. In chapter 55, he returned Renard to her on request, and he later explained that this was because he had taken a closer look at the evidence and concluded that he had acted rashly. I don't consider it too far-fetched to imagine that had no one destroyed her blinker stone, Annie would still have asked Tony to give Renard back, though she probably wouldn't have demanded him back. Then there's the makeup – she (in the form of Court Annie) had a fight with her dad over that one, which we didn't see on camera, but I don't think that would have happened with her rage separated from her. On the other hand, would she really have emotionally needed her makeup, now that she'd found another way to bury her anger? At any rate, my point here is that over time she's had fewer causes for extreme rage, and I don't see that being vastly different in this imaginary alternate universe. Annie, and everyone else, might have assumed that everything was normal and fine now. And thus she may have felt no impetus to undo what she'd done to herself. She might have come to the conclusion that what she did was a good thing. I'm not sure she would have been able to use any fire-based abilities, but she still would've been able to use the blinker stone for other things – after all, she was still able to see through it and summon it to herself. However, a few things would have been different. Forest creatures apparently weren't able to recognize her as the same person. She wouldn't have learned how to see the "strings" that appeared when Smitty used his ability. I'm not sure the freeing of Jeanne would have worked out the same way; she probably would've thought she was ready, but maybe she wouldn't really have been ready. I seriously doubt Coyote would have moved forward with his plan while Annie still had a bilnker stone, so the goose bone and lake water wouldn't have happened until later, and Coyote would have waited until even later to give Ysengrin his strength. This means no Loup, no split Annies, no robot shield, and perhaps Kat would have made a new body for Arthur, but not for any of the other robots. Anyway, to get back on track, I think Annie probably would have been able to undo the splitting off of her rage, but I'm not sure she'd have seen a reason to do so without being pushed to do it. If it had happened when she was much younger, she might even have forgotten she'd done it. The fire might have made off with her blinker stone, and she might have forgotten it existed, the fire going off and having its own adventures in the Ether somewhere. But that's yet another imaginary alternate universe. The main differences between Annie and Tony are that it isn't just his anger but all his emotions that are separated, and Annie's separation wasn't dependent on the number of people she was with. But still, both Tony and Annie are very good at cutting their emotions off from the rest of themselves – it must be a Carver family trait. |
|
|
|
Post by aline on May 14, 2021 21:05:21 GMT
Eh. Tom creates a page months before it is uploaded... In my opinion, forums of webcomics usually vastly overestimate their importance and influence on the comic's writing. It is a bit weird, when something in a comic echos something the fourm has previously posted, the thought is typically "author is sending us a message/responding to us/echoing the fourm." when I think it means "some of our theory was spot on". I think what it means is: "The forum has reacted in an extremely predictable way". |
|
|
|
Post by maxptc on May 14, 2021 23:17:09 GMT
It is a bit weird, when something in a comic echos something the fourm has previously posted, the thought is typically "author is sending us a message/responding to us/echoing the fourm." when I think it means "some of our theory was spot on". I think what it means is: "The forum has reacted in an extremely predictable way". That's absolutely right, in fact I imagine predicting the reaction to Tony isn't hard at all for someone with character building experience. |
|
|
|
Post by mturtle7 on May 14, 2021 23:57:59 GMT
I'm kind of shocked nobody has commented yet on the Panel 4 callback to the advice Donny gave her all the way back in "Annie and the Fire" - looks like she's finally taken that advice to heart! And no, it's still not actually a 4th-wall break. Just a natural thing to say when you're talking to someone about a subject you know they might find confusing.
Also can we talk about how gorgeous that 2nd panel is because DANG it is gorgeous. I love it.
|
|
yinglung
Full Member
It's only a tatter of mime.
Posts: 190
|
Post by yinglung on May 15, 2021 1:06:38 GMT
I'm kind of shocked nobody has commented yet on the Panel 4 callback to the advice Donny gave her all the way back in "Annie and the Fire" - looks like she's finally taken that advice to heart! And no, it's still not actually a 4th-wall break. Just a natural thing to say when you're talking to someone about a subject you know they might find confusing. Also can we talk about how gorgeous that 2nd panel is because DANG it is gorgeous. I love it.
I think it's a good narrative echo. The first time Annie got a good look at a different side of Tony, when Donny helped her spy through the blinker stone, she was still processing and Donny specifically told her that this didn't excuse Tony. This was from Donny, the person that knew him best, who is one of the more sensible characters in the comic. Now that Annie has a more holistic view of Tony, she can say that herself, without rose or jade colored glasses. |
|
|
|
Post by britonro on May 15, 2021 3:12:06 GMT
It is a bit weird, when something in a comic echos something the fourm has previously posted, the thought is typically "author is sending us a message/responding to us/echoing the fourm." when I think it means "some of our theory was spot on". I think what it means is: "The forum has reacted in an extremely predictable way". I mean I don't think it would be difficult for Tom to imagine how a lot of people wouldn't be content with brushing aside Anthony's abuse. He just had to time when Annie would acknowledge it I assume when he was writing the outline of this chapter. He just put it at the end of her little monologue here. Also wow first forum post wowie I've been lurking for a while |
|
|
|
Post by blahzor on May 15, 2021 5:57:03 GMT
She is part fire elemental and part mind cage.
|
|
|
|
Post by 0o0f on May 15, 2021 12:07:15 GMT
I understand that Tom makes these comics in advance, so nothing that happens in a page is likely to be a direct response to current discussions, but he could have some foresight in how readers will react. And it's not uncommon for stories to seem overly forgiving of characters who act in an abusive manner when they show a more sympathetic side of them, so a mindful author will likely strive for a careful balance there. Aside from that, it can be hard to reconcile the fact that you can be angry with someone for how they treated you, while still loving them. It can be easier to go for either extreme, to keep making excuses or turning it into hate. And... I forgot what my exact point was gonna be, but having Annie repeat the message not only functions as a response to anyone thinking the story is making excuses for Tony, but also showing Annie reconciling these conflicting feelings of what happened to her wasn't right, but she still understands. I'm kind of shocked nobody has commented yet on the Panel 4 callback to the advice Donny gave her all the way back in "Annie and the Fire" - looks like she's finally taken that advice to heart! And no, it's still not actually a 4th-wall break. Just a natural thing to say when you're talking to someone about a subject you know they might find confusing. Also can we talk about how gorgeous that 2nd panel is because DANG it is gorgeous. I love it.
I mentioned it briefly earlier, but didn't have time to look for the exact quote. |
|
|
|
Post by silicondream on May 15, 2021 13:55:18 GMT
Tom knows what he's doing. He once said "there are no villains in this story", and if we feel there is one - maybe we oughta take heart from what Surma whispered to Antimony, before sending her to that little ghost boy's room. "I will never send you into danger." I take something slightly different than "heart" from that line--for instance, the need to hand Surma a fragging dictionary and tell her to look up what "danger" actually means--but still, valid point! I would say it was Annie; Ysengrin just gave her a push. The blinker stone wasn't maintaining the split, it was just allowing her to hold the Fire at a distance so that it wouldn't affect her actions or generate actual heat. Ysengrin's shattering the blinker stone made reintegrating a lot more urgent, because now the Fire could easily reach the physical world and injure the people around her. But she was still split, and stayed that way until her meditations started to pay off in "Get it Together." We got an external indication of that at the end of the chapter, followed by a visual demonstration during Jeanne's rescue. If the blinkerstone was allowing her to hold the fire at a distance so that it wouldn't affect her actions or generate actual heat, is that not maintaining the split? I don't think so. The split was volitional; it allowed her to will two different things at the same time. Good Girl Annie meant no harm to anyone, while the Fire was somebody entirely different who wanted to burn down the &^%$ing world. Even with the blinker stone destroyed, the Fire was still someone else; it was just close enough to take control of Annie's body and powers at times. But it wasn't smart enough to make sure those times were appropriate, so she was always struggling to wrestle it back down before somebody got hurt. (This side effect, of course, was Not Ysengrin's Problem. Pacifism is for the weak in his eyes, and self-restraint is supposed to be a war against yourself.) It wasn't until the bowling ball scene in "Get It Together" that Annie was really able to go "okay, this anger is me, and I can let it drive me when I know I need it, and when I don't need it I can put it away." I mostly agree. Tony strikes me as hyperempathic; in particular, he finds other people's pain extra-painful. He never throws a punch or swings a blade, and he probably learned judo as the gentlest possible means of self-defense. One on one, he's your best and funnest friend because he works so hard to keep you happy. In groups, he locks up because he can't please everyone and inaction hurts less than the wrong action. The Mind Cage is mostly a result of self-induced fear conditioning, which tends to cause freezing and dissociation. Now empathy disorders are fiendishly hard to treat; the neural machinery is poorly understood, and empathy mismatches tend to baffle the caregiver as well as the patient. But there would certainly be ways to help a young Tony manage it better. What he would need most is a polite and non-hurtful way to say "Back off, give me space and let me deal with you one at a time." And "polite and non-hurtful" by Tony's own standards is almost impossible to achieve, so it would need to be socially reinforced by a norm that it's extremely okay to set your own terms on space and attachment style. This can happen in the real world, but it can almost never be provided by other young children, which is why special education programs are so vital. But that's not what it means to be a child in the Court. If you get too close to people, they will distance you; if you distance yourself, they will track you, shun you, and ultimately write you off. Your personal needs are just another weakness to overcome...especially in Queslett, which is clearly the most conformist of the Houses. You can be weird in Foley, witchy in Chester, and at least relaxed in Thornhill, but in Queslett you must be Better. And "be better" is the absolute worst message you can send to a hyperempathic person; it's their better nature that is crippling them. In some ways, Annie was lucky to grow up at the hospital. It was a lonely life, but it was also free from condemnation. (Except the occasional ill-advised "HE STILL LOVES YOU VERY MUCH," but Surma was very much not hyperempathic, so it's hard to blame her for getting that one wrong.) Probably, but to do that he would have had to be etherically talented. Annie's human support network, and her physical prowess, are of very little help in matters like this. She approaches and retreats from people, practices and challenges herself, and befriends helpful elder guardians and role models, all via the Ether. When Tony tries to do that demons trick him into cutting his hand off. Tony experiences other people like a Chester, but was assigned Queslett at birth, you might say. I'd like to see him meet Gamma one day; they're kindred spirits. Also wow first forum post wowie I've been lurking for a while Welcome, britonro ! |
|
|
|
Post by machiavelli33 on May 15, 2021 18:39:40 GMT
Tom knows what he's doing. He once said "there are no villains in this story", and if we feel there is one - maybe we oughta take heart from what Surma whispered to Antimony, before sending her to that little ghost boy's room. "I will never send you into danger." I take something slightly different than "heart" from that line--for instance, the need to hand Surma a fragging dictionary and tell her to look up what "danger" actually means--but still, valid point!Wasn't the whole thing that there wasn't any danger, though? That it was all illusions - ghosts and mirrors, to wit? It was why Annie stowed her fear and walked straight into the "fire" to help the lil tyke out, in the end. Wasn't the whole thing that there wasn't any danger, though? That it was all illusions - ghosts and mirrors, to wit? It was why Annie stowed her fear and walked straight into the "fire" to help the lil tyke out, in the end. |
|
|
|
Post by wies on May 15, 2021 20:24:52 GMT
If the blinkerstone was allowing her to hold the fire at a distance so that it wouldn't affect her actions or generate actual heat, is that not maintaining the split? I don't think so. The split was volitional; it allowed her to will two different things at the same time. Good Girl Annie meant no harm to anyone, while the Fire was somebody entirely different who wanted to burn down the &^%$ing world. Even with the blinker stone destroyed, the Fire was still someone else; it was just close enough to take control of Annie's body and powers at times. But it wasn't smart enough to make sure those times were appropriate, so she was always struggling to wrestle it back down before somebody got hurt. (This side effect, of course, was Not Ysengrin's Problem. Pacifism is for the weak in his eyes, and self-restraint is supposed to be a war against yourself.) It wasn't until the bowling ball scene in "Get It Together" that Annie was really able to go "okay, this anger is me, and I can let it drive me when I know I need it, and when I don't need it I can put it away." Good Girl Annie in my view did mean harm to anyone, and it was that very desire she cut away. The fire didn't want to burn down the world anymore than it was that very wish of Annie. So, I interpret it as Annie having cut that will away so that she didn't have to struggle with it. She only started to strggle to wrestle it back down after Ysengrin shattered the stone. Hence why I think the stone was crucial to the Split. I agree that the struggle did end in "Get It Together", but the Fire wasn't characterized as a different person anymore. I mostly agree. Tony strikes me as hyperempathic; in particular, he finds other people's pain extra-painful. He never throws a punch or swings a blade, and he probably learned judo as the gentlest possible means of self-defense. One on one, he's your best and funnest friend because he works so hard to keep you happy. In groups, he locks up because he can't please everyone and inaction hurts less than the wrong action. The Mind Cage is mostly a result of self-induced fear conditioning, which tends to cause freezing and dissociation. Now empathy disorders are fiendishly hard to treat; the neural machinery is poorly understood, and empathy mismatches tend to baffle the caregiver as well as the patient. But there would certainly be ways to help a young Tony manage it better. What he would need most is a polite and non-hurtful way to say "Back off, give me space and let me deal with you one at a time." And "polite and non-hurtful" by Tony's own standards is almost impossible to achieve, so it would need to be socially reinforced by a norm that it's extremely okay to set your own terms on space and attachment style. This can happen in the real world, but it can almost never be provided by other young children, which is why special education programs are so vital. But that's not what it means to be a child in the Court. If you get too close to people, they will distance you; if you distance yourself, they will track you, shun you, and ultimately write you off. Your personal needs are just another weakness to overcome...especially in Queslett, which is clearly the most conformist of the Houses. You can be weird in Foley, witchy in Chester, and at least relaxed in Thornhill, but in Queslett you must be Better. And "be better" is the absolute worst message you can send to a hyperempathic person; it's their better nature that is crippling them. In some ways, Annie was lucky to grow up at the hospital. It was a lonely life, but it was also free from condemnation. (Except the occasional ill-advised "HE STILL LOVES YOU VERY MUCH," but Surma was very much not hyperempathic, so it's hard to blame her for getting that one wrong.) Probably, but to do that he would have had to be etherically talented. Annie's human support network, and her physical prowess, are of very little help in matters like this. She approaches and retreats from people, practices and challenges herself, and befriends helpful elder guardians and role models, all via the Ether. When Tony tries to do that demons trick him into cutting his hand off. Tony experiences other people like a Chester, but was assigned Queslett at birth, you might say. I'd like to see him meet Gamma one day; they're kindred spirits. For the rest I agree mostly (also the link in "relaxed in Thornhill" doesn't seem to work). But I think Annie made the most important breakthroughs outside the Ether, though, sure, it didn't hurt to be etherically attracted. And at the time of Hand Cutting Time, Tony wasn't looking for a support network, but for answers. In fact, I think etherically matters have been risky at best and damaging at worst for both Annie and Anthony. |
|
|
|
Post by silicondream on May 15, 2021 22:09:39 GMT
Wasn't the whole thing that there wasn't any danger, though? That it was all illusions - ghosts and mirrors, to wit? It was why Annie stowed her fear and walked straight into the "fire" to help the lil tyke out, in the end. There was no physical danger, I agree. On the other hand, if sending a six-year-old into a psychic hellscape to exorcise a tortured child-ghost by discovering that they accidentally killed their whole family isn't an emotional danger, well, we can stop talking about "TAKE OFF THAT RIDICULOUS MAKEUP" forever. But it probably wasn't perceived as an emotional danger by Surma herself. She seems fairly low-empathy, either by nature or by training as a Guide. That's what lets her do things like cheat on Eglamore and trap Renard with a clear conscience; if she sees a good reason to do it, their pain is not her problem. And it also makes her slightly terrible at communicating with hyperempaths like Tony and Annie, because she doesn't get just how carefully they speak most of the time, and how much of their brain is preoccupied with triple-checking whether they've hurt or disappointed their loved ones. This notorious flashback is a good example. Tony's been crying on Surma's bosom,and when he glances back at Annie she sees that he looks awful. Now this glance isn't particularly directed at Annie; it's just the signature Carver glance of agonized guilt and frustration that Annie herself flashed a few pages earlier. And I don't think Annie initially takes it as being about her; she's just troubled and unsure how to help. But then Surma says "He still loves you very much." Which to her seems comforting, because her biggest worry in Annie's shoes would be whether Tony's misery means he'll abandon her. Instead, Annie is utterly discomforted, because if Tony has to still love her, then she must have done something which might have threatened that, and so she must have hurt him. What could she have done wrong? As Tom comments at the bottom, it's that "still" which haunted Annie ever after. Or look at Surma's "comforting words?" in another flashback. Don't be concerned about the glass, says Surma, because sometimes things just fall and break. But how must the glass feel, thinks Annie, to fall and break and have no one be concerned for it? Surma and Annie are the same being, but--especially when Annie was young--they had profoundly different personalities. I think empathy is at the core of that difference. Good Girl Annie in my view did mean harm to anyone, and it was that very desire she cut away. But once she'd cut it away, she no longer had it, no? When I say "Good Girl Annie," I'm talking about her in this period, when she really couldn't be mad at anyone over anything. I'm not sure how far we disagree here, but as I see it: Before the blinker stone was destroyed, the Fire could act independently, but its actions were impotent. Good Girl Annie wouldn't do any harm, and the Fire couldn't. www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1536www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1563After the blinker stone was destroyed, the Fire was still acting independently, but now it could act through her. Things could actually get burned, either because the Fire could apply her powers directly, or because it could make her forget her Good Girlness. But neither of these are things Annie wanted to happen, so the split was still there. It was always her anger, of course, but her anger did not obey her without a fight. www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1581www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1621Neither of these, by the way, is what happened when anger took over an unsplit Annie earlier. In that case she obeyed the anger instead, and felt what it wanted her to feel, and became overtly malicious. That is the exact point at which the struggle ended, I think. At the beginning of the chapter, when she was still struggling, the Fire was still a different person to her. Afterwards it was "her fire," which she could use for her own purposes, and the next time it showed up in the Ether it was back to her normal aura. Oops, fixed. It was just a link to Parley's friends, who are the only other Thornhill students we've met. They're...normal. What breakthroughs would those be, though? Take away the sessions with her three etheric dog-dads; take away the perspective she got on Tony by etherically eavesdropping; take away the etheric firepower that forced her to start managing her anger lest it burn innocents. What's left? That's usually what Annie's looking for too; Carvers don't often beg for help. But etherics decide to support Annie much more often than they do Tony. After they try to kill her, I mean. |
|
|
|
Post by mturtle7 on May 16, 2021 0:08:30 GMT
And it happens every time, too. I've said it before, but this is a story that it's really important not to judge until it's over. Same goes for chapters or scenes, even when they drag out a bit. Edit: I suppose this could come off as a bit backhanded, but it's not really meant that way. Now I wonder if I find this more noticable than usual since I have been paying more attention to the forums lately (the "this doesn't excuse it"-thing has even been said before as well). It seems almost a bit heavy-handed, but I suppose this is a case where it's better to be safe than sorry I think it's a good narrative echo. The first time Annie got a good look at a different side of Tony, when Donny helped her spy through the blinker stone, she was still processing and Donny specifically told her that this didn't excuse Tony. This was from Donny, the person that knew him best, who is one of the more sensible characters in the comic. Now that Annie has a more holistic view of Tony, she can say that herself, without rose or jade colored glasses. I'm kind of shocked nobody has commented yet on the Panel 4 callback to the advice Donny gave her all the way back in "Annie and the Fire" - looks like she's finally taken that advice to heart! And no, it's still not actually a 4th-wall break. Just a natural thing to say when you're talking to someone about a subject you know they might find confusing.
Also can we talk about how gorgeous that 2nd panel is because DANG it is gorgeous. I love it.
Well that was downright embarrassing. I really need to check look over the thread more thoroughly before I say things like that. Sorry 0o0f and yinglung! |
|
|
|
Post by stevecharb on May 16, 2021 4:11:28 GMT
I'm proud of Annie for having such a mature takeaway from the situation. Lord knows that if she weren't ready to heal, she easily could have seen this episode as just the latest in a long series of father issues, instead of a clean break point and opportunity to grow beyond.
|
|
|
|
Post by wies on May 16, 2021 11:07:54 GMT
Good Girl Annie in my view did mean harm to anyone, and it was that very desire she cut away. But once she'd cut it away, she no longer had it, no? When I say "Good Girl Annie," I'm talking about her in this period, when she really couldn't be mad at anyone over anything. No longer having it as in someone not having an eye after having it put behind an eyepatch. That is how I see it. Her desire was cut away, but it was still hers. It didn't make her forget her Good Girlness in my view, she was never that Good Girl tm because the return of her anger was the return of a piece of her personality that was cut away. That is also how she was able to stop the fire from harming the Bunny Boy. That is more of a different kind of anger that drove what she did to Jack imo in that it was all very deliberate instead of being overwhelmed by it. You are right in that the Fire there is depicted as still a different person.So there was still somewhat of a Split after the shattering of the Stone. I still think the Stone was important to maintaining the Split as severe it was before Ys shattered it. Lots! Her talks with Kat, such as the crying in the beginning, when they talked through her fear that caused her to run away when she saw her and Paz kissing, her talks with Jones and Jack made her reflect on her weaknesses. Also, as you mentioned later, those etheric dog-dads each were rather risky to her as having almost resulted in her death which is what I meant at best being 'risky'. Tony lost his arm, Annie almost lost her life several times due to meetings with those etherical beings. I feel you are missing my point. You were comparing Annie's kind of aimless wandering in an environment which provided structure for meetings (etherical or mundane ones), while Antony was on a queeste through the world, on which is rather harder to form a network. I was pointing out those are different things. |
|
|
|
Post by wies on May 16, 2021 11:08:30 GMT
Also, I wish proboard made that whole quoting easier. All that fiddling in the quote gets tedious at times.
|
|
