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Post by Gemminie on Mar 8, 2021 17:50:12 GMT
Yes, Renard, please explain – maybe Annie doesn't need it, but we do!
Whatever just happened, I'm still betting that this isn't the end of the multiple-Annies arc, but a further development of it. Just going by the symbolism, the two Annies had different outfits, and now Combined Annie is wearing elements of each outfit. They're still both there, in some sense.
So I'm going to have to try to make sense of this yet again. Fortunately this is GC, so I'm used to it.
1. Loup plays a trick, and now there are two Annies.
2. The Arbiter and his interpreter look at the two Annies, say they've been "shifted," and say neither one belongs in this timeline.
3. Zimmy says she's seen people split before but is vague about the details.
4. Kat goes on the theory that they're each from another timeline, and freaks out that it's impossible.
5. Brinny looks at them with special blue-glowing-eye magic and says they're "shifted" too.
6. The Norns just say sorry, we can't help you; they only do temporal affairs.
7. Zimmy just ... undoes whatever Loup did (though perhaps with lasting consequences).
So. SUPPOSE that back in step 1, Loup didn't do any kind of timeline splitting or shifting shenanigans. What if he instead just separated out two parts of Annie's personality and gave them physical form?
In step 2, the Arbiter and interpreter take a look at one of the Annies and see that she doesn't belong in this timeline. So they assume there are two of them because of alternate timelines, and when they check the other one and see that she doesn't belong here either, they just go OK, theory confirmed. Later on, step 5 happens, and Brinnie does basically the same thing. Not to fault any of them – if you see somebody eating an omelet in their kitchen, and you look in their fridge and see a partially-full carton of eggs in there, you probably assume they made an omelet instead of ordering delivery or whatever.
Step 3: Zimmy can see what's happened, but she doesn't tell anybody, in typical Zimmy fashion. Maybe she figures it'll sort itself out.
Step 4: Kat's going on the evidence she's got – she's been scanning the Annies with weird science stuff, and all she's managed to do, probably, is confirm that they're in the wrong timeline, which she's already been told. She then goes off on her time travel thing about saving Annie from falling off the bridge, instead of anything having to do with the double Annie issue. And the Annies help her with that. It's still not totally clear why, or if, the time travel thing makes Annie show up as "shifted," but maybe it does. Maybe not. Not really important right now.
Step 6, though: the Norns tell her they only deal with temporal affairs. Maybe this should have been a signal to all of us. They can tell that it's not an alternate-timeline thing. I mean, who would know better?
So here we are. For one reason or another, the Annies look like they're shifted from some other timeline, to beings who can see that. But they make the assumption that there are two of them for the same reason, when in fact that isn't why. And then Zimmy comes along and shoves them back together, undoing what Loup did. The Annies, though, have had a considerable amount of time apart, and that's got to have a lasting effect on who Annie will be from now on.
Who will she be, from now on? Will she want to wear makeup as a security blanket, or not? Will her dad go into emotional lockdown around her, or not? Will she let her hair grow, or cut it short? Will she learn how to let go of her mother without feeling guilty for forgetting her?
And what's everyone else going to do? Specifically, I'm wondering what Loup will do. "Ah, so you figured out my little trick. I guess I couldn't control you forever by dangling it over your head. Well, OK then, I'll just turn you into a tree elf until you get my gifts back for me. See, I'm not hurting you! I would never hurt you, my love!"
I'm still stuck on there being some sort of narrative purpose for Loup's trick. I seem to recall Tom saying at one point that two Annies was something that was always going to happen in the story. There's some kind of purpose for it, and it doesn't seem to me that that purpose has been served yet.
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Post by mturtle7 on Mar 8, 2021 18:12:50 GMT
The forum, literally non-stop ever since this page happened: "Don't worry guys, the storyline CAN'T be resolved ALREADY - I'm sure that ANY MOMENT NOW we're going to get some kind of explanation for this turn of events."
Tom: |
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Post by hp on Mar 8, 2021 18:29:29 GMT
There is a reason why Gamma and Zimmy are together. Nobody asks this. We just found out that Zimmy finding Gamma in the toy shop wasn't a case of "Sleeping Beauty in the toy pile"; that was an illusion. We have been in the habit of assuming that Gamma just showed up in Zimmingham (or Zimmingham parted around her) and was able to glop things away and that it was natural that she become Zimmy's companion and defender (to her own cost in sleep). But what if Gamma is the dreamer, in a sort of constant low-grade narcoleptic way, and Zimmy the waking dream? Why did I ask that. I meant to ask whether Gamma and Zimmy were alternate-universe selves. wow you just went full Zhuangzi with his tale about dreaming he was a butterfly, LAUGHING ON LINE. interesting wildspec.
As for Annie, I'm curious to know what Loup will think about the fusion and about Zimmy.
Also, maybe Zimmy didn't "fix" Annie, but made things even more complicated? If I'm not misunderstanding Clippy's talk about how neither Annie belongs in OTL and if that meant True Annie is elsewhere, Zimmy merged 2 Annies from different timelines into a single one as a replacement for the True Annie who is still missing
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Post by hnau on Mar 8, 2021 18:30:07 GMT
From a psychological standpoint, it all makes sense. My theory is that, in this comic, usually internal - i.e. psychological - phenomena are happening externally. Annie has shown signs of dissociation: When her father came back, she dissociated from her fire elemental. When Y died, she dissociated from Court Annie. Something like this is known to happen due to severe childhood trauma. It's called dissociative identity disorder, formerly known as multiple personalities. Traumatic events usually lead to some degree of dissociation. Then, the brain works on re-integration. The different parts start to communicate and to cooperate. Then, suddenly, the brain rewires and there is only one combined personality. A dramatic account of this can be found in: The Flock: The Autobiography of a Multiple Personality by Joan Frances Casey. Yeah, I am willing to see it as metaphor. My criticism is that in this way Annie's brain didn't really rewire, but got rewired by Zimmy. And I don't know how to interpret that as metaphor. Can that also happen with DID? (This is a sincere question.) I don't think that Zimmy rewired her brain. She just nudged it in the right direction, like a good therapist does. It started when they entered Zimmingham. Renard was just a representation of himself in her mind ( 2417), a so-called ego state like both parts of Annie. Annie was confronted with Surma's death, her very first trauma. Part of her wanted to let go, the other part wanted to cling to her memory ( 2425). In the resulting quarrel they state both sides of the paradox, a step towards integration. She should be able to do both, like Renard said. Zimmy just helps her to understand herself better ( 2432). |
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Post by saardvark on Mar 8, 2021 18:59:25 GMT
Yes, Renard, please explain – maybe Annie doesn't need it, but we do! Whatever just happened, I'm still betting that this isn't the end of the multiple-Annies arc, but a further development of it. Just going by the symbolism, the two Annies had different outfits, and now Combined Annie is wearing elements of each outfit. They're still both there, in some sense. So I'm going to have to try to make sense of this yet again. Fortunately this is GC, so I'm used to it. 1. Loup plays a trick, and now there are two Annies. 2. The Arbiter and his interpreter look at the two Annies, say they've been "shifted," and say neither one belongs in this timeline. 3. Zimmy says she's seen people split before but is vague about the details. 4. Kat goes on the theory that they're each from another timeline, and freaks out that it's impossible. 5. Brinny looks at them with special blue-glowing-eye magic and says they're "shifted" too. 6. The Norns just say sorry, we can't help you; they only do temporal affairs. 7. Zimmy just ... undoes whatever Loup did (though perhaps with lasting consequences). So. SUPPOSE that back in step 1, Loup didn't do any kind of timeline splitting or shifting shenanigans. What if he instead just separated out two parts of Annie's personality and gave them physical form? In step 2, the Arbiter and interpreter take a look at one of the Annies and see that she doesn't belong in this timeline. So they assume there are two of them because of alternate timelines, and when they check the other one and see that she doesn't belong here either, they just go OK, theory confirmed. Later on, step 5 happens, and Brinnie does basically the same thing. Not to fault any of them – if you see somebody eating an omelet in their kitchen, and you look in their fridge and see a partially-full carton of eggs in there, you probably assume they made an omelet instead of ordering delivery or whatever. Step 3: Zimmy can see what's happened, but she doesn't tell anybody, in typical Zimmy fashion. Maybe she figures it'll sort itself out. Step 4: Kat's going on the evidence she's got – she's been scanning the Annies with weird science stuff, and all she's managed to do, probably, is confirm that they're in the wrong timeline, which she's already been told. She then goes off on her time travel thing about saving Annie from falling off the bridge, instead of anything having to do with the double Annie issue. And the Annies help her with that. It's still not totally clear why, or if, the time travel thing makes Annie show up as "shifted," but maybe it does. Maybe not. Not really important right now. Step 6, though: the Norns tell her they only deal with temporal affairs. Maybe this should have been a signal to all of us. They can tell that it's not an alternate-timeline thing. I mean, who would know better? So here we are. For one reason or another, the Annies look like they're shifted from some other timeline, to beings who can see that. But they make the assumption that there are two of them for the same reason, when in fact that isn't why. And then Zimmy comes along and shoves them back together, undoing what Loup did. The Annies, though, have had a considerable amount of time apart, and that's got to have a lasting effect on who Annie will be from now on. Who will she be, from now on? Will she want to wear makeup as a security blanket, or not? Will her dad go into emotional lockdown around her, or not? Will she let her hair grow, or cut it short? Will she learn how to let go of her mother without feeling guilty for forgetting her? And what's everyone else going to do? Specifically, I'm wondering what Loup will do. "Ah, so you figured out my little trick. I guess I couldn't control you forever by dangling it over your head. Well, OK then, I'll just turn you into a tree elf until you get my gifts back for me. See, I'm not hurting you! I would never hurt you, my love!" I'm still stuck on there being some sort of narrative purpose for Loup's trick. I seem to recall Tom saying at one point that two Annies was something that was always going to happen in the story. There's some kind of purpose for it, and it doesn't seem to me that that purpose has been served yet. I think you've struck on something that puzzled me... Clippy, when asked if the Arbiter can fix the situation: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2162"you need temporal affairs." So Saslamel and Clippy think this is a temporal, or specifically, a timeline-shift problem. But when visiting the Norns and Annie asks them the same question: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2350"Sorry we only deal with temporal affairs." Since the Norns would seem the experts, the Annie's situation must NOT be a temporal one... so it is NOT a timeline shift. Clippy & Saslamel were wrong, or being misleading. Kat is so absorbed in the time-travel business that she seems not to notice this contradiction. This might make the "split personality" theory more likely again. As for narrative purpose, Annie seeing parts of herself from the "outside" as it were, and thereby resolving some internal conflicts, perhaps comes out of this literally a more stable, well-grounded and "whole" person, at peace with herself at last. edit: ...Annie takes a major step of self-discovery/self-reconciliation, like Hnau discusses, just above this! |
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Post by wies on Mar 8, 2021 19:05:03 GMT
Maybe now we can learn more about that Steadman fellow. Heh. The forum, literally non-stop ever since this page happened: "Don't worry guys, the storyline CAN'T be resolved ALREADY - I'm sure that ANY MOMENT NOW we're going to get some kind of explanation for this turn of events." I can actually live that we don't get an explanation of how Zimmy did this. But what I struggle with that, if this is indeed to be the end-and-all of the two Annies, I can't figure out the narrative reason of this resolution. What did Tom want to tell with us seeing the Annies struggling with the forced co-existence, their differences and especially in regards to their parents, and then for that to Zimmy come in and solve us without us seeing anything of it. It reminds me of how Kat suddenly became friends with Tony With this the latest time we have been shown her thoughts on him. And while I still think it would have been better if we had seen that character development and the establishment of that professional relationship, I can get why Tom choose to depict it in that way. One of the things he wants to show, I think, with this story is how things can seem very different in another light because you don't know the history. Hence why Annie initally thought Kat was brainwashed. It also was acknowledged as weird. Yeah, I am willing to see it as metaphor. My criticism is that in this way Annie's brain didn't really rewire, but got rewired by Zimmy. And I don't know how to interpret that as metaphor. Can that also happen with DID? (This is a sincere question.) I don't think that Zimmy rewired her brain. She just nudged it in the right direction, like a good therapist does. It started when they entered Zimmingham. Renard was just a representation of himself in her mind ( 2417), a so-called ego state like both parts of Annie. Annie was confronted with Surma's death, her very first trauma. Part of her wanted to let go, the other part wanted to cling to her memory ( 2425). In the resulting quarrel they state both sides of the paradox, a step towards integration. She should be able to do both, like Renard said. Zimmy just helps her to understand herself better ( 2432). Thank you! I find it just a pity we weren't privy to the nudge. Like, how she saved Annie from the bony fingers! That was satisfying altough we even then didn't get the whole context of that until much later, but Divine held up on its own, while Find Yourself does that less to me. Maybe I should reread this chapter though. |
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Post by beaukm on Mar 9, 2021 0:37:15 GMT
 You can say THAT again, annoying ad to the left side of the comic! |
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Post by maxptc on Mar 9, 2021 1:31:50 GMT
Seeing how disappointed people are with this ending feels strange. It must be because I wasn't expecting twin Annie's to last very long, and as such didn't truly see them as two separate individuals but as one main character in a wacky situation.
I get the impression some people are mourning two character deaths when, to me, this feels more like Annie becoming much more self aware. I mean she is realizing how much both major and minor conflicts/dynamics can impact her state of mind/sense of self, a relatable lesson not everyone fully understands, let alone gets to see/experience physically. But its difficult to explain and even harder to showcae in a visually intresting way. This whole arch was an entertaining way to address issues that are typically covered by an inner monolog or magical trip into someone's subconscious. Forrest Annie was able to remove fake Surma because Tony is more of a full person from her perspective, not just "Father". Forrest Annie she saw that connection and used it against Court Annie immediately in a fight or flight moment. That same thing being devastating and cruel to Court Annie is because she is just a bit more vulnerable and lacking the feeling of that parental love.
What's left to explain, from a story standpoint, really? Annie got split thus removing her from the timeline she was replaced by two instances of her who don't belong. She learned about herself, mainly how hard she is on herself but other stuff as well. Now that's done or undone and the one Annie who was meant to exist is back, just containing two Annie's experiences. We already understand the "technical" how, Zimz is reality bender who is connected to all the ethereal stuff. Looking back, that Zimmy connected to Loup drawing is looking pretty Chekhovs gunish, might be more to that, but this part of the story seems pretty neatly wrapped up to me. Overall, I liked this chapter and the shifted storyline. It's nice that Loup doesn't have shifting to hold against Annie anymore.
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Post by lurkerbot on Mar 9, 2021 2:58:33 GMT
Given the title of "Find Yourself", I did suspect that this chapter would somehow involve Antimony's duplication. However, I did not expect that her situation would apparently be resolved merely by Zimmy being moved to help Carver understand herself a little better. This does feel a little...anticlimactic given the distress experienced by Antimony (and some of us) over the past 11 chapters. That said, I've noticed that when Tom has previously divulged major story developments rather abruptly, he's often disclosed more details in the following pages. So here's hoping that the next chapter(s) favor confused readers like me with a little more explanation as to what exactly just happened. Perhaps related, I do wonder how the last panel on this page might relate to the current state of affairs. |
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Post by apache on Mar 9, 2021 3:27:26 GMT
Looks like Annie is getting her act together.
Finally.
Bravo. Zimmster.
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Post by arf on Mar 9, 2021 3:38:33 GMT
Rey can explain, and Annie understands.
So the public reveal can wait for the next chapter.
(Listening ears on, Kat, although it would be an interesting twist if Annie's exposition gets dumped on Paz instead.)
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Post by jda on Mar 9, 2021 3:58:05 GMT
Oh, thank gods you understand... sure, pay no mind to the mouth frotting people on the 4th wall shouting WHYYYYY TOMMMM WHYYYYYY
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Post by lurkerbot on Mar 9, 2021 4:34:19 GMT
I'm still stuck on there being some sort of narrative purpose for Loup's trick. I seem to recall Tom saying at one point that two Annies was something that was always going to happen in the story. There's some kind of purpose for it, and it doesn't seem to me that that purpose has been served yet. I can think of one possible explanation. Antimony's duplication disturbed Kat to the point that she created the Tic-Toc as a distraction. This led to the visit to the Norns whereby our previous sightings of the Tic-Toc were explained. We also learned of Coyote's previously-unknown relationship with the Tic-Toc. Now that the Tic-Toc arc appears to be complete ( maybe not?), Antimony's duplication no longer serves that specific narrative purpose. I've noticed patterns like this throughout the overall story. For example, Antimony still has her blinker stone so that Donald can borrow it when he visits Tony in Chapter 53 only to have Ysengrin destroy it in Chapter 54. (Yes, the destruction of the blinker stone itself results in significant story and character development; my point here is merely the timing of the events.) I find Tom's plot devices usually enter and leave the narrative without being overly obvious. This to me is one quality of an enjoyable story well-told. |
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Post by arf on Mar 9, 2021 4:48:56 GMT
The trouble is that this plot device has just left the narrative in an overly obvious manner. Strong explanations are required, although I'm confident they will be forthcoming.
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Post by Gemminie on Mar 9, 2021 5:15:44 GMT
I'm still stuck on there being some sort of narrative purpose for Loup's trick. I seem to recall Tom saying at one point that two Annies was something that was always going to happen in the story. There's some kind of purpose for it, and it doesn't seem to me that that purpose has been served yet. I can think of one possible explanation. Antimony's duplication disturbed Kat to the point that she created the Tic-Toc as a distraction. This led to the visit to the Norns whereby our previous sightings of the Tic-Toc were explained. We also learned of Coyote's previously-unknown relationship with the Tic-Toc. Now that the Tic-Toc arc appears to be complete ( maybe not?), Antimony's duplication no longer serves that specific narrative purpose. I've noticed patterns like this throughout the overall story. For example, Antimony still has her blinker stone so that Donald can borrow it when he visits Tony in Chapter 53 only to have Ysengrin destroy it in Chapter 54. (Yes, the destruction of the blinker stone itself results in significant story and character development; my point here is merely the timing of the events.) I find Tom's plot devices usually enter and leave the narrative without being overly obvious. This to me is one quality of an enjoyable story well-told. OK, I can see this. There is at least one major event brought about by the double-Annie situation that wouldn't have happened otherwise. I wonder if there are any others. One non-obvious one is the character development – we now have a lot of information about Annie's internal conflicts that we wouldn't have had otherwise, and a lot more development of Tony too. Also, I wonder whether there being two Annies might have helped with her/their negotiation with Khepi and the tree folks. It was an obvious bit of evidence that she'd been to talk to Loup and hadn't returned unscathed. Also, as I seem to keep saying, I'm not sure it's entirely over. Renard's "I can explain," followed by no explanation, is a foreshadowing to me that it's going to be explained later, either by Renard or by someone else (such as Annie herself), and Tom just doesn't want to duplicate the explanation (he doesn't like to do that, leading to things like "SHE DOES," "One concise exposition later"/"Wow! So all that crazy stuff happened?" and the first panel on this page). We're going to find out what the real situation is, and I think it's going to be that the two Annies are still in there. I want to know how Tony will interact with her now. Will he be more open with her when she's acting more Forest Annie-like and not when she's being more Court Annie-like? Will her history of split-ness be more obvious than that? Will she dress in green some days when she's feeling more Forest-Annie-ish and purple when she's feeling more Court-Annie-ish? Will her outfit actually change with her moods? Will she split again when her halves aren't getting along? |
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Post by Bandolute on Mar 9, 2021 6:08:43 GMT
Ten bucks combined Annie loses the open affection her father was previously willing to show forest Annie.
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Post by drmemory on Mar 9, 2021 8:01:53 GMT
Still not convinced we are in the real world. I can sort of see the basically emotionless Annie not reacting so much to being unshifted, especially if it makes sense inside her head. Like maybe she's got two sets of memories to parse now?
What I can't believe is that she wouldn't react to seeing Zimmy pet Renard. Even if she remembers everything that happened to both Annies up to the moment of the merge, if that's what it was, she wasn't there for the conversation between Gamma and Renard and later Zimmy, and the last time she saw Renard and Zimmy near each other Renard was dancing around to avoid contact.
For that matter, since when is Renard ok with being petted? Even when Kat grabs him he doesn't seem all that comfortable usually. The only one we've shown have close contact with him with no adverse reaction at all is Paz Doolittle.
We also went from the toy store with the Annies fighting and the elf kids freaked out by the whole situation to the middle of a sports game. Big character changes there too - nobody is even reacting to Zimmy sitting there watching them. I thought we didn't want demons near our neighborhood, like?
IF this is all real, then we are looking at Korvac-level and -type powers. Major reality warp. Zimmy hasn't shown anything near that scale of power to date in the real world. For that matter, we haven't seen her have ANY effect on the real world. When she wanted to squash a spider, she picked it up and squashed. She didn't adjust reality so there never had been a spider.
Zimmy hasn't even shown conscious control over her own worlds or whatever Zimmyland is. She's often cowering or fleeing from things there. If she could make things be the way she wants them to be, or at least make them stop sucking, one would think she'd do so! Instead, she won't even walk around unless someone else clears the nobodies.
In summary, I'm not taking this at face value just yet.
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Post by guntherkrieg on Mar 9, 2021 8:44:08 GMT
Remember this lesson, kids: in the Gunnerverse you can be an abuser as long as you mend reality/do nice things for people occasionally.
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Post by hnau on Mar 9, 2021 9:20:35 GMT
I don't think that Zimmy rewired her brain. She just nudged it in the right direction, like a good therapist does. It started when they entered Zimmingham. Renard was just a representation of himself in her mind ( 2417), a so-called ego state like both parts of Annie. Annie was confronted with Surma's death, her very first trauma. Part of her wanted to let go, the other part wanted to cling to her memory ( 2425). In the resulting quarrel they state both sides of the paradox, a step towards integration. She should be able to do both, like Renard said. Zimmy just helps her to understand herself better ( 2432). Thank you! I find it just a pity we weren't privy to the nudge. Like, how she saved Annie from the bony fingers! That was satisfying altough we even then didn't get the whole context of that until much later, but Divine held up on its own, while Find Yourself does that less to me. Maybe I should reread this chapter though. In the end, integration is what the brain is doing all the time. Anything we learn and any significant experience needs to be integrated. It's an automatic process. Traumatic events just happen to be extremely big chunks of data that can take months, years, decades, or forever. Therapy just helps to sort the data. I don't think that we can be privy to even our own integrations. When all preconditions are met, the brain just goes on full power for some time to finish the process. If you know about the process, you might just know that it's integrating now. And then, suddenly, it's done and you are standing there, staring at yourself in wonder... |
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Post by migrantworker on Mar 9, 2021 11:22:14 GMT
Remember this lesson, kids: in the Gunnerverse you can be an abuser as long as you mend reality/do nice things for people occasionally. I urge you to be careful with this attitude. If you repeat it often enough, you may well come to believe that it applies in the real world as well. |
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Post by fia on Mar 9, 2021 12:50:01 GMT
Remember this lesson, kids: in the Gunnerverse you can be an abuser as long as you mend reality/do nice things for people occasionally. Look, as someone who has been abused myself – it's a delicate thing, and I'm sorry for whoever caused you pain. But we can distinguish between toxicity that cannot be overcome or forgiven and mistakes that are an involuntary result of serious psychiatric conditions. The latter types merit sympathy, not demonization. If nothing else that's what Tom pushes the most in the narrative about Zimmy. Others see her as "a demon," but she's a human girl. Zimmy has been a child this entire comic. A child with very serious involuntary mental health issues (not a personality disorder, but *psychosis* – she has said many times she can't control it and it makes her life miserable) and a really wonderful loving friend willing to stick by her, who thankfully is older than her and savvy enough to hold Zimmy accountable sometimes. She's not trapped with Zimmy, it seems they choose to be together. Zimmy has also grown and changed and become more self-aware as she has approached ~16, which is better than I can say for many 16-year-olds, or even many 50-year-olds, even without the involuntary psychosis. We can also distinguish between reality and a fantasy webcomic. Abusers in real life deserve our condemnation and to be held accountable. Stories are there to allow us to reflect, maybe by projecting ourselves, maybe learn some things, maybe enjoy ourselves. We all project onto Zimmy differently depending on who we are. I gather that for you she triggers associations with really genuinely terrible people, and for that I am sorry. For my own part, I don't think of Zimmy that way. She reminds me of people I know with debilitating conditions, who people misunderstand, but are actually really good people that don't like being with others because they're so scared all the time. I know a few. Zimmy is her own (fictional) person though, and not quite like any of them. EDIT just to add: by the way, if any of us meet a Zimmy, this comic in no way obligates us to behave like Annie or Gamma. I think being kind is always good but you don't have to associate with people you don't like. Zimmy for sure doesn't expect anyone to feel pity or sympathy for her. And people like this are not our burden. If you have a parent like Tony, you do not have to maintain contact with them if you do not want to. Annie chooses to. That's also up to her. Maybe if she doesn't make any progress with him she will choose differently later. We're always able to revisit these things. But the choices of others are not prescriptive of what you should do. I admire Annie for trying so hard to make her relationships work with people that make it really tough. I haven't made the same choices she has but I can respect them; as long as she's safe. (She's not a lot of the time – it's a fantasy webcomic – but at the moment the main danger to her is Loup, who we know she doesn't like). |
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Post by Gemminie on Mar 9, 2021 16:40:28 GMT
Still not convinced we are in the real world. I can sort of see the basically emotionless Annie not reacting so much to being unshifted, especially if it makes sense inside her head. Like maybe she's got two sets of memories to parse now? Whether this is real or not, I agree that she now has two sets of memories to parse and that she's probably quite stunned by everything. Maybe she'd react and maybe not. "I remember being two people and now I'm just one" is probably of much greater concern than "Doesn't he usually keep away from her?" Well, he's probably making a conscious decision. He's just said that Annie would do anything to help Zimmy, and now he would too. It would be very bad form for him to recoil from her after saying that. (Heehee, Paz Doolittle!) That's assuming that the elf kids were ever even there. Gamma told Renard (and us) that everybody in Zimmingham right now was made of parts of Zimmy or parts of Annie. I think they were illusions based on the kids Zimmy was seeing. It's quite possible that Zimmy and Gamma have been sitting on that wall since before the chapter began, physically speaking. My theory is that she saw the teens – maybe when they entered the courtyard they're now playing ball in; Zimmy didn't expect them to show up – and had a flashback to the time when some teens chased her and beat her up. These teens played the roles of those teens in Zimmy's mind. (Unless I'm wrong.) Yes, assuming it's all been real, that would give Zimmy godlike power. But I don't think it's been real. If this new Recombined Annie turns out to be real, it's probably an indication that Loup never split any timelines or made any alternate universes, and that everyone's assumption that he did has been wrong. And that the elf teens have always been playing ball in the courtyard and were never really in Zimspace at all. Well, when she's with Gamma, which she is here, she can exert some control. And in chapter 38, she does some positive things to help Annie, even after Gamma leaves. It's still quite nebulous exactly what she can do, but it's not godlike; it's more like being in the right place (and plane, and layer) at the right time. Yeah, it's like I have to reevaluate my picture of GC reality after every page. I don't know. We'll see. |
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Post by blazingstar on Mar 9, 2021 21:03:06 GMT
Ten bucks combined Annie loses the open affection her father was previously willing to show forest Annie. I never make bets. But I'll raise you ten bucks AND a Forum Cookie that Tony continues to show some or all of the affection he showed F!Annie, simply because I choose to be a radical optimist. The alternative option would be too depressing for me to believe. |
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Post by todd on Mar 10, 2021 0:23:21 GMT
I had some difficulties with the ending myself (it felt as if everything was resolved too quickly - not just the two Annies, but also Zimmy's pursuers, who are now back to playing soccer as if nothing had happened), but then, we've seen things like this happen before. (Remember how, in "The Torn Sea", the moment the robot rescue party showed up, everything went smoothly, without any hitches or setbacks.
It's possible that the whole point of the "trapped in Zimmy's world again" situation was for Gamma to deliver that exposition about Zimmy's torment and Kat's importance.
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Post by Bandolute on Mar 10, 2021 1:29:46 GMT
Ten bucks combined Annie loses the open affection her father was previously willing to show forest Annie. I never make bets. But I'll raise you ten bucks AND a Forum Cookie that Tony continues to show some or all of the affection he showed F!Annie, simply because I choose to be a radical optimist. The alternative option would be too depressing for me to believe. It would be nice if you were right, but I'd feel cheated if we didn't get to the bottom of Tony's aversion. Especially after the no-shoes dash out the door. It's just too easy. Then again, I thought the same about this recent fusion, so maybe it'll all get smoothed over. |
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Post by foxurus on Mar 10, 2021 3:41:02 GMT
From a psychological standpoint, it all makes sense. My theory is that, in this comic, usually internal - i.e. psychological - phenomena are happening externally. Annie has shown signs of dissociation: When her father came back, she dissociated from her fire elemental. When Y died, she dissociated from Court Annie. Something like this is known to happen due to severe childhood trauma. It's called dissociative identity disorder, formerly known as multiple personalities. Traumatic events usually lead to some degree of dissociation. Then, the brain works on re-integration. The different parts start to communicate and to cooperate. Then, suddenly, the brain rewires and there is only one combined personality. A dramatic account of this can be found in: The Flock: The Autobiography of a Multiple Personality by Joan Frances Casey. Ah, a great post! Earlier this chapter I pointed out that Zimmy's "abilities" look like exaggerated and externalized symptoms of PTSD: I don't think it's fair to assume that Zimmy did something to make her feel like she deserves it. She very likely has PTSD from being on the streets and dealing with her reality distortion for her whole life. PTSD often includes guilt, shame, self-hatred, and suicidal ideation. When you've been harmed/unsafe/in pain for as long as you can remember, it's hard to believe that you're not supposed to be hurting. (She's actually displayed a lot of the symptoms of PTSD, even stuff like trouble sleeping or concentrating. Hell, Zimmingham and her other hallucinations might have started, initially, as flashbacks and dissociation that were amplified by her etherical connection.) That in mind, Annie having DID and it also being externalized makes sense. Zimmy's experience with materialized-mental-health-issues makes her better equipped to understand and help resolve them than probably anyone else Annie knows. Peer support can be immensely helpful. Don't forget "30 chapters of exposition later." |
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Post by hnau on Mar 10, 2021 7:54:13 GMT
Ah, a great post! Earlier this chapter I pointed out that Zimmy's "abilities" look like exaggerated and externalized symptoms of PTSD: I don't think it's fair to assume that Zimmy did something to make her feel like she deserves it. She very likely has PTSD from being on the streets and dealing with her reality distortion for her whole life. PTSD often includes guilt, shame, self-hatred, and suicidal ideation. When you've been harmed/unsafe/in pain for as long as you can remember, it's hard to believe that you're not supposed to be hurting. (She's actually displayed a lot of the symptoms of PTSD, even stuff like trouble sleeping or concentrating. Hell, Zimmingham and her other hallucinations might have started, initially, as flashbacks and dissociation that were amplified by her etherical connection.) That in mind, Annie having DID and it also being externalized makes sense. Zimmy's experience with materialized-mental-health-issues makes her better equipped to understand and help resolve them than probably anyone else Annie knows. Peer support can be immensely helpful. Missed your earlier post, thanks for pointing it out. Lots of people seem to suffer (or have suffered) from some kind of trauma related condition: - Annie: DID, or at least PTSD
- Zimmy: PTSD, with some kind of hallucinations (schizophrenia?)
- Tony: PTSD, also somewhere on the Asperger's/autism spectrum
- Ysengrim, the General: PTSD from warfare, probably Stockholm syndrome from being manipulated by Coyote, and Alzheimer's
Renard is old enough to have lived through trauma and PTSD, thereby learning how to deal with these things in a constructive way. Ysengrim has also learned a lot from his traumas, but he's not as mature due to his other conditions. |
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Post by hnau on Mar 10, 2021 7:59:56 GMT
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Post by speedwell on Mar 10, 2021 12:13:03 GMT
Just a note: I'm autistic, and have been for longer than Tony is old. I don't think Tony is autistic per se. What he does have, and plenty of it, is anxiety. Anxiety + nerdiness does not necessarily equal autism, folks.
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Post by alevice on Mar 10, 2021 13:53:33 GMT
Just a note: I'm autistic, and have been for longer than Tony is old. I don't think Tony is autistic per se. What he does have, and plenty of it, is anxiety. Anxiety + nerdiness does not necessarily equal autism, folks. additionally not everything is ptsd |
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