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Post by Gemminie on Aug 10, 2020 17:10:25 GMT
why are they faded or muted colors? Good question, and I have three theories: either there's a source of light behind them, so the ones who are closer to it get more brightly lit, or there's a spring/stream behind them that's generating mist, or the farther into the future they are the more vaguely defined they get. Then there's the meta theory: they're faded in the art to allow readers to distinguish the Norn-Kats from actual-Kat. |
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Post by flowsthead on Aug 10, 2020 17:14:27 GMT
It wouldn't matter even if they had all had dark skin, I'm sure. Have a nice re-read of the comic, please. Even if you're just referring to the people on the current page, Anja is Roma. I've read through the comic a few times and it's a simple fact that Gunnerkrigg skews very heavily towards the Caucasian. You can look at the main cast. Or you can zoom out a bit further and, oh look, there's Margo and Juliette. That's it. Not to mention the first sentient being on Earth being a blonde, white woman. Would it matter for this particular page? Well, given it's construction, then yes. What would happen with the perception of the Norns? Would Tom make them mixed race? That could be seen as problematic for a few reasons. But luckily Tom has a predominantly mayonnaise-coloured cast and thus it's not an issue... phew! This is true, but so what? Representation is not about having every comic have a cast that represents the world. Representation is about having more diverse authors being able to tell the stories they want to tell. To use a film analogy, it's not a problem that the Coens cast very white. It's a problem that Spike Lee struggles to find funding for his next film, and the next Ava DuVernay will struggle as well. Also, why bring this up for this chapter? I guess it doesn't really matter when you bring it up, but it seems kind of random. |
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Post by wies on Aug 10, 2020 17:16:08 GMT
I am not sure why it would be seen as problematic if the Norns would appear to be of mixed race when such characters perceive them? Seeing in this page how the Norns also reflect Annie's, Kat's and Anja's skintone, I assume they would do the same for any character, no matter their ethnicity. |
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Post by Gemminie on Aug 10, 2020 17:16:44 GMT
While I'm here, I notice the first thing any of the Norns has said has been about a manga. I was a bit worried that they'd be all, "Oh, you're the one who causes all the trouble! Into time-jail with you! *POOF*" But it looks like this conversation will be considerably more cordial than that.
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Post by Gemminie on Aug 10, 2020 17:48:11 GMT
Good thing none of them have darker than Caucasian skin, but I guess that's not a worry for this super white bread cast. I'm not sure there's a point to talking about how it would've been done with a different set of characters present. It would've been done differently. That's all we can really say. |
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Post by The Anarch on Aug 10, 2020 18:23:34 GMT
Dammit, how am I supposed to make an Oh My Goddess! joke in the forums when Tom just straight up makes the reference in the comic itself?!
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Post by warrl on Aug 10, 2020 18:47:15 GMT
I've read through the comic a few times and it's a simple fact that Gunnerkrigg skews very heavily towards the Caucasian. You can look at the main cast. Or you can zoom out a bit further and, oh look, there's Margo and Juliette. That's it. And that's a not-horribly-skewed representation of the United Kingdom. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_in_the_United_Kingdom#Population_by_ethnicity87% white. 7% Asian. 3% black African. 2% mixed. The nonwhites are heavily concentrated (relative to whites) in metropolitan London and a few other major cities, which means they are proportionately under-represented in most other places. |
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Post by lonestarf1 on Aug 10, 2020 19:31:25 GMT
Also can't help but notice you're only including the black cast members in that "zoom out." Race is pretty weird in the court, since the forest creatures take on these new forms, some of which have the appearance of existing races. And it's about to get a whole lot more skewed once the robots start getting their new bodies. Only taking what we've been shown so far, though, the picture is still a bit more than just Margo and Juliette.
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Aug 10, 2020 19:37:33 GMT
While I'm here, I notice the first thing any of the Norns has said has been about a manga. I was a bit worried that they'd be all, "Oh, you're the one who causes all the trouble! Into time-jail with you! *POOF*" But it looks like this conversation will be considerably more cordial than that. Verdandi: You can tell me stories about me, while you are in time-jail.
The parallel with Annie telling Coyote stories would be uncanny.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Aug 10, 2020 20:38:29 GMT
Dammit, how am I supposed to make an Oh My Goddess! joke in the forums when Tom just straight up makes the reference in the comic itself?! Quoth Shia LaBeouf: JUST. DO. IT. |
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Post by blahzor on Aug 10, 2020 22:20:54 GMT
the problem in this versions of the Norns could only be this page right now. b/c the bubbles are blocking their face to hide who they are reflecting it's implying they are reflecting the reader (or Brinnie for story reasons but that's not obvious). so if they are reflecting the reader having them appear as white skinned people is also implying most likely the reader is white. and also probably the Norns will always present as female no matter the reflection
while looking like Kat in her view she isn't speaking like Kat b/c she doesn't have her speech bubble color
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Post by warrl on Aug 10, 2020 23:25:50 GMT
Now what I'm wondering: does the red-haired Verdandi share Annie's opinion of that comic? (Which I suspect is "um... I think Kat's mentioned it a few times...")
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Post by todd on Aug 11, 2020 0:25:08 GMT
I reread about the Norns in Snorri Sturluson's Prose Edda, and Skuld was described as the youngest Norn, which matches the depiction in the comic. (Snorri also mentioned that Skuld worked with the Valkyries in harvesting the fallen warriors to take to Valhalla, which makes it appropriate that Brynhild is the one introducing the main characters to the Norns.)
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Post by mturtle7 on Aug 11, 2020 4:32:05 GMT
It wouldn't matter even if they had all had dark skin, I'm sure. Have a nice re-read of the comic, please. Even if you're just referring to the people on the current page, Anja is Roma. I've read through the comic a few times and it's a simple fact that Gunnerkrigg skews very heavily towards the Caucasian. You can look at the main cast. Or you can zoom out a bit further and, oh look, there's Margo and Juliette. That's it. Not to mention the first sentient being on Earth being a blonde, white woman. Would it matter for this particular page? Well, given it's construction, then yes. What would happen with the perception of the Norns? Would Tom make them mixed race? That could be seen as problematic for a few reasons. But luckily Tom has a predominantly mayonnaise-coloured cast and thus it's not an issue... phew! Ehhhhhhhh... fair enough, I guess. I feel like I should defend Tom simply because he's an amazing author & I love this comic...but yeah, even taking into account Kat's half-Roma status (I'm honestly not sure if that counts as "white" or not these days) and a couple other side characters like Blue/Ayilu and Snuffle, it's not all that racially diverse a cast. You know, on a similar vein, I've always felt vaguely bothered about the prominent presence of a Native American god in this extremely English forest & boarding school with hardly another trace of Native representation otherwise. There's a few slightly problematic things about this comic, awesome as it is.
Anyway, what I actually came into this thread to say before I got sucked into that argument: I think we all need to present some HIGHLY unexpected COOKIES to blackmantha for the post they made right when the Norns were first mentioned!!! I'm sorry I ever doubted you, blackmantha! At the time, I thought this was a silly and highly unnecessary anime reference, but clearly you have the gift of prophecy!
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Post by madjack on Aug 11, 2020 4:35:07 GMT
Don't touch the bait.
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Post by Dvandaemon on Aug 11, 2020 9:02:19 GMT
You can appreciate it as a great story while still acknowledging that it's ultimately one person's singular view which will naturally end up somewhat myopic and problematic under scrutiny.
I do also question appropriating Coyote so heavily while still being eurocentric. That'll always be true even as entertaining as Coyote is.
It's not always bait to prompt someone to express their misgivings, though I won't deny it still shifts the mood to some heavier implications.
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Post by wies on Aug 11, 2020 9:28:14 GMT
There is also Muut, but yeah.
Though I don't know an European equivalent of a trickster that could serve the same narrative role. Loki, maybe?
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Post by pyradonis on Aug 11, 2020 10:48:15 GMT
There is also Muut, but yeah. Though I don't know an European equivalent of a trickster that could serve the same narrative role. Loki, maybe? There is a mythical European canine trickster being. Renard the fox. Oh wait... 
But seriously, you probably thought more of beings with godlike powers? Then I would have put my money on Lugh, the Celtic trickster god being most at home in Britain. Loki could have done the job as well.
I guess Tom decided on Coyote mainly because he likes mythical dogs. Actually I never questioned whether it "should" have been a European trickster god instead. Coyote explained that and why he had come to Europe and I was satisfied with that. Where is the problem?
While I'm here, I notice the first thing any of the Norns has said has been about a manga. I was a bit worried that they'd be all, "Oh, you're the one who causes all the trouble! Into time-jail with you! *POOF*" But it looks like this conversation will be considerably more cordial than that. Don't celebrate too early, remember Clippy also seemed helpful and all before he casually said they wanted to lobotomize Kat and jail her. |
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Post by netherdan on Aug 11, 2020 14:47:40 GMT
This is true, but so what? Representation is not about having every comic have a cast that represents the world. Representation is about having more diverse authors being able to tell the stories they want to tell. To use a film analogy, it's not a problem that the Coens cast very white. It's a problem that Spike Lee struggles to find funding for his next film, and the next Ava DuVernay will struggle as well. In my opinion the "representativity" issue is also about misrepresenting characters, like having a story about ancient Egypt with a predominant white cast, or having the Mongolian army be composed of black dudes. >>>words I agree with, just click this quote's timestamp to read what warrl said, this post was getting big<<< And that's why I agree with warrl on this matter, GK seems to be a fair representation of its supposed location. Good thing none of them have darker than Caucasian skin, but I guess that's not a worry for this super white bread cast. It's alright - Annie will be portrayed as a lump of coal in the Netflix series. And if that's supposed to be a critique on Netflix's Starfire, I mean, come on, light brown is as close as you can get to orange without tons of body paint! PS: yes, I'm aware of Mutano's greeness and I'm also aware of computer VFX. It's just a joke, she's an alien and as such was going to be misrepresented anyways, so why not? PPS: also, congratulations to blahzor for finally getting an avatar! No more broken quotes, yay! |
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Post by Gemminie on Aug 11, 2020 15:01:03 GMT
While I'm here, I notice the first thing any of the Norns has said has been about a manga. I was a bit worried that they'd be all, "Oh, you're the one who causes all the trouble! Into time-jail with you! *POOF*" But it looks like this conversation will be considerably more cordial than that. Don't celebrate too early, remember Clippy also seemed helpful and all before he casually said they wanted to lobotomize Kat and jail her. Good point. But still ... Annie is alive, and Anja and Donnie found the Tomb, meaning Kat will make those things happen, meaning she'll find out how, meaning the Norns will help her or at least not stop her. They may have conditions or take some convincing, but signs point to it happening. What'll they do with the Annies, though? "Oh dear, this is wrong, back to your timelines! *DOUBLE POOF*" Will we see an "It's a Wonderful Life"-style look at the GC world as it would be today if Annie had died at the end of chapter 7? Or will they be like Brinnie – "Oh, visitors from two different timelines, nifty! Anyway, so about Kat ..." Or will they completely ignore the double-Annie elephant in the room? |
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Post by Gemminie on Aug 11, 2020 15:15:39 GMT
And that's why I agree with warrl on this matter, GK seems to be a fair representation of its supposed location. Yes, considering that it was started centuries ago by refugees from (probably) medieval or Renaissance England who departed the ordinary world and isolated themselves in an enchanted forest that's hard to enter from the outside world, its human population is almost certainly less racially diverse than the rest of the UK. It seems they've been scouting talented individuals from around the world and encouraging them to come to the Court, but where they've been searching, and for how long, is unclear. Or, looked at another way, the population of the Court is more diverse than most of the world, considering that it contains a minotaur, at least one dryad, at least two merostomatozons, quite a lot of self-aware robots, an Orjak, a shadow person, a recent influx of tree elves, whatever Jones might be called, and probably a lot of other nonhuman entities whom we've never seen. |
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Post by Gemminie on Aug 11, 2020 15:41:26 GMT
I like that the girls get kinda smug about not being surprised, and I love the target of their smugness. Like Kat, who's nearly explaining to her mom that this is normal stuff when dealing with magic. May I remind you which one of you is the straightforward magic user Kat? And who got you here in the first place and specifically asked for this situation to happen? And I like even more that the person that Annie is showing off to is her other self. Well done Annie, I'm sure she's going to be very impressed 1. 1 Knowing Annie this might actually work though. Kat's certainly got experience with seeing the same people and things differently than others see them! But yes, it's funny that she's explaining it to her mom, who is literally a technomage. By this time the Annies are probably getting used to reacting to things in the same way. That probably means that they're reinforcing their own behaviors. |
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Post by frogspawned on Aug 11, 2020 21:22:05 GMT
It's alright - Annie will be portrayed as a lump of coal in the Netflix series. [snip] ...if that's supposed to be a critique on Netflix's Starfire... [/snip] More generally Redhead erasure in the media- if Starfire's the example you've noticed, then sure. |
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Post by lonestarf1 on Aug 11, 2020 21:40:09 GMT
Bit of a stretch to call it "Netflix's Starfire." They didn't make the show, they only have the rights outside of the US. The show was made entirely by DC. I actually really like her actor, though I'm not a fan of what they did to her powers. That was pretty weak.
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Post by shadow3 on Aug 12, 2020 0:30:51 GMT
...............I wonder what the Norns look like to each other.
Hmm...
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Post by zbeeblebrox on Aug 12, 2020 0:42:45 GMT
...............I wonder what the Norns look like to each other. Hmm... This is practically a softball right here. Mystery solved:  |
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Post by ekimie on Aug 12, 2020 11:33:12 GMT
the problem in this versions of the Norns could only be this page right now. b/c the bubbles are blocking their face to hide who they are reflecting it's implying they are reflecting the reader (or Brinnie for story reasons but that's not obvious). so if they are reflecting the reader having them appear as white skinned people is also implying most likely the reader is white. and also probably the Norns will always present as female no matter the reflection while looking like Kat in her view she isn't speaking like Kat b/c she doesn't have her speech bubble color I thought the speechbubble-blocked faces had to do with clarifying who was who..
Also I dont really get this politically correct debate. Gunnerkrigg Court does not exist. It is not based on the real world, so it does not have to take shape after the real world (someone mentioned people from Egypt looking like Egyptians as example). This place isnt Egyptian, it isnt African, it isnt American, it isnt European, it isn't Asian... (I probably missed a few). We are talking about a universe with talking dogs and magic. So it is entirely up to the creator to decide what they look like, and I think he is pretty good at that. There is some of everything without forcing specific brands on them. We only found out after a whole bunch of chapters Kat is bi, but for most other chapters you can fill that in entirely your own. You can identify with any character you want because they are not so far detailed that everything is put in stone. Want Muut to have a secret relationship with Mort? go ahead. Tony and Egglamore were secret lovers? also fine. That bunny that became a kid would have preferred to be orange? well he doesnt say he DOESNT want to be...
As for colour, I do think it is pretty diverse. And I also think it isn't more than natural to end up with more of 1 (please dont start being spastic to get equal amounts of everything.... that is awful and unnatural).
Gamma isnt white, that girlfriend of Kat isnt white (quite forgot her name), not sure what Zimmy qualifies as, that ex-elf isnt white. And it was already established Anja is Roma. and this is just main, I am too lazy to read all comic back. Looks pretty stable to me
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Post by bedinsis on Aug 12, 2020 15:47:53 GMT
Gunnerkrigg Court does not exist. It is not based on the real world ...  Yes it is. This isn't Lord of the Rings or A Song of Ice and Fire, Gunnerkrigg is allegedly set in the real world. The chapter The Stone more than anything should make that abundantly clear. And while Gunnerkrigg itself obviously is a fictional place with fictional characters it is not unreasonable to bring up real life when that's the place it purports to being set in. |
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Post by ekimie on Aug 12, 2020 19:42:02 GMT
Gunnerkrigg Court does not exist. It is not based on the real world ... Yes it is. This isn't Lord of the Rings or A Song of Ice and Fire, Gunnerkrigg is allegedly set in the real world. The chapter The Stone more than anything should make that abundantly clear. And while Gunnerkrigg itself obviously is a fictional place with fictional characters it is not unreasonable to bring up real life when that's the place it purports to being set in. They have a forest with suicidal fearies and a godlike coyote..... |
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Post by netherdan on Aug 12, 2020 19:54:08 GMT
[snip] ...if that's supposed to be a critique on Netflix's Starfire... [/snip] More generally Redhead erasure in the media- if Starfire's the example you've noticed, then sure. I didn't notice such trend! Outrageous! I just pinpointed her because I found it hilarious people taking offense by the misrepresentation of an alien. Kinda like some guy I saw a few months ago arguing about how the author of a fan-made independent Dragon Ball movie shouldn't make Goku asian because in his reasoning "Goku is white!1!". I mean, yeah dude, he's not actually caucasian white, he's saiyan white, good luck finding a matching actor! |
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