[2314] No, you're missing the point!

[madjack]

Oh, so this is the road they're going down...

[merry76]

So sad its official a loop, not a Loup

[imaginaryfriend]

Kat sent a Toc back? More like Six Tocs, amiright?

[madjack]

A few thoughts: First, Panel 4 Annie is hilarious.

Second, could this be why there are six? The loop ran 6 times before they halted it?

So many programming concepts crop up in the background of this comic when you look at things in certain ways.

[Gemini Jim]

The loop that Kat's describing wouldn't cause multiple birds to exist, or even multiple Annies to exist. That's not the problem.



The problem is, there's no point of origin for the bird. That's the paradox.




Kat only created the bird because Annie told her about it.

Annie was only able to tell Kat about the bird, because Kat had already made it.




EDIT: The loop remains stable as long as Kat can figure out a time travel method. If Kat refuses to send the bird back, that's also a problem. But that's not the problem that Kat is describing in her lovely little cartoon.

[tercio]

Jun 5, 2020 7:03:18 GMT merry76 said:

So sad its official a loop, not a Loup

Jun 5, 2020 7:14:38 GMT madjack said:

So many programming concepts crop up in the background of this comic when you look at things in certain ways.

Perhaps Loup will be the illegal exception that gets them out of this loop.

[migrantworker]

Annies learn that they owe their life to Kat and...

Court Annie is awed.
Forest Annie is excited.

What a difference half a year makes.

[heranje]

Theory: The original Tic Toc was made by robodeity!Kat far later in the original version of this timeline, after having gone through the whole transformation into Godhood without her best friend Annie, who died on the bridge when they were young. Perhaps, without Annie, Kat's ascension to power was 'darker' - at the very least, I could imagine that she'd be more strongly aligned with the Court and less accepting of all things etheric. Perhaps realising the path the loss of Annie had made her go down - and having gained the power to do so - she sent back a robot to save her friend, changing the timeline and setting off the loop.

[theonethatgotaway]

Jun 5, 2020 7:40:21 GMT Gemini Jim said:

The loop that Kat's describing wouldn't cause multiple birds to exist, or even multiple Annies to exist. That's not the problem.



The problem is, there's no point of origin for the bird. That's the paradox.




Kat only created the bird because Annie told her about it.

Annie was only able to tell Kat about the bird, because Kat had already made it.




EDIT: The loop remains stable as long as Kat can figure out a time travel method. If Kat refuses to send the bird back, that's also a problem. But that's not the problem that Kat is describing in her lovely little cartoon.

So basically, Annie is her own grandfather. 

I understand Kat's frustration: the thing that is happening only happened because the thing is going to happen. You know who could probably explain this perfectly? Coyote. I miss that guy, what ever happened to him? Oh yeah, the murder... 

[Kuraimizu]

it's only a paradoxical time loop if you assume that time is 1 dimensional.
Given that we live in a universe with 2 or 3 dimensions of time,
time travel is possible without breaking the timeline.
And it's also possible that the Tic-toc could have originated from another time line.
a time loop doesn't necessarily have to originate from the future.
In an alternate timeline, Annie died, the Kat of that reality,
worked to find a way to save her friend, even if it wouldn't change her past.
At the very least, finding a way to save her friend's life, would ensure
there would be an alternate reality where Annie would live.
And at at least one Kat, in at least one reality, would get to keep her friend.

[madjack]

Jun 5, 2020 8:16:12 GMT theonethatgotaway said:

So basically, Annie is her own grandfather.

Well since we're talking time loops, her great-grandmother was also named Antimony.

[chrisjenl]

Jun 5, 2020 8:04:54 GMT heranje said:

Theory: The original Tic Toc was made by robodeity!Kat far later in the original version of this timeline, after having gone through the whole transformation into Godhood without her best friend Annie, who died on the bridge when they were young. Perhaps, without Annie, Kat's ascension to power was 'darker' - at the very least, I could imagine that she'd be more strongly aligned with the Court and less accepting of all things etheric. Perhaps realising the path the loss of Annie had made her go down - and having gained the power to do so - she sent back a robot to save her friend, changing the timeline and setting off the loop.

But will she? Kat that we know now i think will don't do that because that make a paradox. She make the Tic Toc to safe her friend but will she if she if she didn't lose here. and think there so fucking long and don't do a thing by it.

[Kuraimizu]

Jun 5, 2020 8:20:43 GMT madjack said:

Jun 5, 2020 8:16:12 GMT theonethatgotaway said:

So basically, Annie is her own grandfather.

Well since we're talking time loops, her great-grandmother was also named Antimony.

given what we know know, and that time travel is starting to be a major background in the plot.
it might be safe to theorize that Annie and Kat, from an alternate reality, or the future,
Go back in time, and do become their own Great grandparents.
or at least Annie or one of the Annies might.

[arf]

Jun 5, 2020 8:20:43 GMT madjack said:

Jun 5, 2020 8:16:12 GMT theonethatgotaway said:

So basically, Annie is her own grandfather.

Well since we're talking time loops, her great-grandmother was also named Antimony.

Cue the Weeping Angels...

Something else to bear in mind from that page: Tony dodges the question about his parents.

[merry76]

Jun 5, 2020 7:40:21 GMT Gemini Jim said:

The loop that Kat's describing wouldn't cause multiple birds to exist, or even multiple Annies to exist. That's not the problem.

Its more or less established that there are several realitites. I think there is one reality where Annie fell down the river and died, and the Kat from that reality was aggrieved that she started to build a prototype robot (the first of its kind) to send it into the past to save her. Because its not "exactly" her past, but a different reality, she probably never got her Annie back, being a good "first" bird, but inspired the annie from the reality she sent it to to build one of her own, sending it again to another reality...

And somehow the silly things seem to clutter in the reality we observed, for whatever reason (probably Loup).

If I am correct, quite a few Annies fell down the river and died, because our observed reality hogged the rescue birds. Selfish.

[pyradonis]

I don't see what Kat's problem is; she should know enough movies and video games with stable time loops. They just work.

Seriously, though, I agree with Kuraimizu and merry76 in that, of course, there must be one timeline in which Annie is dead, and Kat sent the Tic-toc back to save Annie, creating the timeline we have been following since the beginning (I was going to say "since chapter 8", but that is obviously wrong, as the Tic-toc already appears in the first chapter).

[MarineMonarch]

It's hard to say before she's finished what's specifically bothering Kat about the time loop. Maybe it's how it brings up questions about free will, if certain future events are necessarily pre-determined? Does it stress her out to know that she is (presumably) going to have to invent time travel for the logic to work here, or not knowing if it's possible to screw that up somehow and not make it work right?

We don't strictly know how time travel works within the gunnerkrigg universe until we have some evidence or a run-in with temporal affairs. If she doesn't invent time travel maybe the universe retcons itself into a world where Annie died, or maybe some other cause puts them in the past anyway because the past is fixed. Time travel is fiddly and we can't be assured it's working on what we think are the irl rules.

[meltea]

Wait, does there need to be a loop?

First round Annie dies, Kat spends the rest of her life creating the Tic Toc and figuring out time travel, then she sends it back - splits timeline. The next time Annie still dies and Kat goes on to create another Tic Toc, because at this point there's no difference in the timelines. This repeats until there are enough of the Tic Toc to save Annie.

End of loop, the timeline doesn't need to be split anymore.

We know that in this universe timelines can be split, it's not a single time stream.

[todd]

At ;east Kat built the Tic-Toc "on her own" - that is, the materials were all hers, and she didn't, say, build it from the remains of the Tic-Toc. That would have been a much worse time loop than the one we have here, where it's only knowledge and information that's part of the loop, and not physical objects.

[pyradonis]

Jun 5, 2020 12:42:40 GMT todd said:

At ;east Kat built the Tic-Toc "on her own" - that is, the materials were all hers, and she didn't, say, build it from the remains of the Tic-Toc. That would have been a much worse time loop than the one we have here, where it's only knowledge and information that's part of the loop, and not physical objects.

Right, the only thing "looped" would be the idea of building a robotic bird at all. And it's not really that far-fetched a possibility that Kat would have eventually gotten the idea of building a robotic bird on her own. Many other events led to her love of birds.

[TBeholder]

So, this looks like at some point it was Coyote's trick either way.

[Kuraimizu]

Jun 5, 2020 7:40:21 GMT Gemini Jim said:

The loop that Kat's describing wouldn't cause multiple birds to exist, or even multiple Annies to exist.
The loop remains stable as long as Kat can figure out a time travel method.
If Kat refuses to send the bird back, that's also a problem.
But that's not the problem that Kat is describing in her lovely little cartoon.

the multiple birds thing is easy to fix. Kat just needs to make more birds.
There was only ever one bird standing watch on the bridge.
but when Annie fell off, suddenly there were 6 of the birds.
though only 2 of them actually carried her down, and one was damaged.
the damaged one setting in motion the events that led to Annie and Coyote meeting.
the other 5 birds, must have been waiting nearby,
or teleported into the timeline at the moment they were needed
or a combination of the two.

[ctso74]

Yeah. Once a Kat sent one back to Set Right What Once Went Wrong, it would become a Stable Time Loop, so I'm not understanding the problem. Maybe, we don't know why Kat is all worried, yet.

Jun 5, 2020 13:40:07 GMT TBeholder said:

So, this looks like at some point it was Coyote's trick either way.

It's possible. He could have sent the unknown Shadow Man with Robot, to start things off.

Jun 5, 2020 9:45:38 GMT arf said:

Something else to bear in mind from that page: Tony dodges the question about his parents.

Now, I can't stop thinking of Tony's parents being a Tic-Toc with a fake mustache and a Tic-Toc wearing a floral dress. I don't care, if it doesn't make sense. It's too good an image to ignore.

[DonDueed]

Jun 5, 2020 14:43:56 GMT ctso74 said:

Yeah. Once a Kat sent one back to Set Right What Once Went Wrong, it would become a Stable Time Loop, so I'm not understanding the problem. Maybe, we don't know why Kat is all worried, yet.

I'm sticking with my interpretation: Kat is all worried because she knows she has to send the Tic-Toc back in time, but doesn't know how to do that. 

But this page kind of contradicts that, at least somewhat.  Why worry about causing a loop if the real issue is the problem of time travel itself?

[mudmaniac]

I am thinking multiple timelines originating from 1 branch point. The branch point is where Tic Tocs save Annie, and Annie tells Kat about them.
Multiple branches split from there; Annie never ran away to the Forest, Annie died when Tony tried to reach Surma's soul, Jack and Annie become a couple, all that stuff.
But in each one Annie told Kat about the birds, and Kat built a time traveling bird. Each is a different bird, but also the same bird from a parallel reality. Of course, not all parallel realities had Kat successfully sending the bird back in time, or there would have been a infinite number of Tic Tocs. But Kat can't not try. Because she knows if not enough of them succeed, Annie dies at the waters. Annie has essentially become a Schrodinger's Fire Elemental!!

Or maybe Kat just builds 6 of them.

[Gemini Jim]

Just to be clear, my original post describes the situation as I think Current Kat sees it.

(EDIT: And I still think this interpretation is possible.)



She hasn't described alternate dimensions... yet. But she may be thinking about it, perhaps more will come on Monday.


Or perhaps the Temporal Patrol will swoop in next week and say, "Ah! But that's where you're wrong, Miss Donlan!"

[bedinsis]

I imagine it as a varying timeloop eventually reaching a stable equilibrium:

Timeline 1: Annie falls to her death, Kat never finds out that Alistair was turning into and bird and never develops a bird phase, in chapter x+10 Kat sends a drone back to the past to save her friend that past on...
*timeline reset*
Timeline 2: Annie is saved by Kat's drone, Kat is shoved in Alistairs face when tranforming into a bird and develops a bird phase, inspired by Annie's rescue recount Kat builds a drone, which diverges incrementally from the drone that saved Annie, in chapter x+5 Kat realizes that despite not being completely identical it probably is the one that saved Annie and sends it to the past...
*timeline reset*
Timeline 3: Annie is saved by Kat's drone, Kat is shoved in Alistairs face when transforming into a bird and develops a bird phase, inspired by Annie's rescue recount Kat builds a drone, which diverges incrementally from the drone that saved Annie in this timeline making it look more birdlike, in chapter x+5 Kat realizes that despite not being completely identical it probably is the one that saved Annie and sends it to the past...
*timeline reset*
Timeline 4: Annie is saved by Kat's drone, Kat is shoved in Alistairs face when transforming into a bird and develops a bird phase, inspired by Annie's rescue recount Kat builds a drone, which diverges incrementally from the drone that saved Annie in this timeline making it look more birdlike, in chapter x+5 Kat realizes that despite not being completely identical it probably is the one that saved Annie and sends it to the past...
*timeline reset*
[insert N amount of resets]
*timeline reset*
Timeline N+4: Annie is saved by Kat's Tic Toc, Kat is shoved in Alistairs face when transforming into a bird and develops a bird phase, inspired by Annie's rescue recount Kat builds the Tic Toc, identical to the one that saved Annie, in chapter x she sends it to the past, realizing she is only doing what has already happened.

[pyradonis]

By the way, madjack, there's a typo in the thread title's page number.

[netherdan]

Jun 5, 2020 15:28:52 GMT Gemini Jim said:

Or perhaps the Temporal Patrol will swoop in next week and say, "Ah! But that's where you're wrong, Miss Donlan!"

Imagine them popping up and dropping non-subtle hints to Kat while she keeps refusing it as "impossible" until they get fed up and tell her the secret of time travel because if she doesn't figure it out in time the paradox will resolve by splitting into yet another timeline for them to deal with (as in, the paradox will be resolved anyway and they only get to decide if it's a split or a loop)

[Runningflame]

Kat making a very wizard-like gesture in panel 5 there.

To all who've been enjoying these recent forum discussions: I stumbled across a story by Vernor Vinge this week which may be of interest. (No further spoilers!)