[2305] That's it? That's the explanation?!

[philman]

No! I don't buy it!

"Oh Kat, this is just what happens..."

No Annie, I don't think hand waving things away and just doing what Loup tells you is going to cut it any more.

[madjack]

You know things are getting serious when the speech bubbles start crossing panel borders.

[bicarbonat]

Okay, lady, how about you go and see the murder-dog and let us know how it goes. Something tells me you'll buy in bulk when you do.

...Or maybe just see a mangy dog operating a system of pulleys and levers made of rocks and kindling while it talks to its own ass.

[wies]

No wonder things are gearing up.

It is grindin' her gears, after all.

May 15, 2020 7:12:45 GMT bicarbonat said:

Okay, lady, how about you go and see the murder-dog and let us know how it goes. Something tells me you'll buy in bulk when you do.

...Or maybe just see a mangy dog operating a system of pulleys and levers made of rocks and kindling while it talks to its own ass.

Yeah, there is a reason that Coyote and Kat haven't met yet. It is going to happen sooner or later, tho.

[imaginaryfriend]

See, when something inexplicable happens that's when science advances. Sometimes it advances while screaming so Kat yelling is a good sign.

[pyradonis]

Fine, Kat, there is no way the two of them can be here now, so what has happened instead?

May 15, 2020 7:12:45 GMT bicarbonat said:

Okay, lady, how about you go and see the murder-dog and let us know how it goes. Something tells me you'll buy in bulk when you do.

...Or maybe just see a mangy dog operating a system of pulleys and levers made of rocks and kindling while it talks to its own ass.

Many people believe this, I do not. Kat saw through the smoke and mirrors of the RotD, but actual Etheric beings, like the psychopomps Ketrak and Ankou, did not appear any different to her than to anyone else.

[merry76]

May 15, 2020 7:54:54 GMT pyradonis said:

Many people believe this, I do not. Kat saw through the smoke and mirrors of the RotD, but actual Etheric beings, like the psychopomps Ketrak and Ankou, did not appear any different to her than to anyone else.

Wait a minute. Has Kat ever seen Coyote when he does tricks? Like warp reality or something?

Or was he always just a "Normal Being" in her eyes? And the reality warp just didnt happen for her?

[Futurismo]

May 15, 2020 8:24:14 GMT merry76 said:

May 15, 2020 7:54:54 GMT pyradonis said:

Many people believe this, I do not. Kat saw through the smoke and mirrors of the RotD, but actual Etheric beings, like the psychopomps Ketrak and Ankou, did not appear any different to her than to anyone else.

Wait a minute. Has Kat ever seen Coyote when he does tricks? Like warp reality or something?

Or was he always just a "Normal Being" in her eyes? And the reality warp just didnt happen for her?

Nope; Kat has never been in Coyote or Loup's presence before so we can't really be sure what would happen just yet. Assuming that golden light is correlated to Kat like so many of us suspect, then there is evidently something in the ether that a being like him notices about her but I'm not sure if the reverse is true.

I'm interested to see where Kat is going with this. If she does not "buy" the explanation, then does she have an alternative one that can be used to actually do something about this situation? Or some way to disprove the explanation that she's been given, using some limited time manipulating tech of her own to scan the Annie's and draw some conclusions, perhaps.

[speedwell]

Getting flashbacks to when I moderated an atheism chat.

[grahamf]

I wonder what happens if sahe marches straight over to the forewst and demands answers.

[grahamf]

my god my spelling ahs gone to shit

[arf]

May 15, 2020 7:54:54 GMT pyradonis said:

Fine, Kat, there is no way the two of them can be here now, so what has happened instead?

May 15, 2020 7:12:45 GMT bicarbonat said:

Okay, lady, how about you go and see the murder-dog and let us know how it goes. Something tells me you'll buy in bulk when you do.

...Or maybe just see a mangy dog operating a system of pulleys and levers made of rocks and kindling while it talks to its own ass.

Many people believe this, I do not. Kat saw through the smoke and mirrors of the RotD, but actual Etheric beings, like the psychopomps Ketrak and Ankou, did not appear any different to her than to anyone else.

Kat could also see through the trickery of the Arrow (although she saw Jeanne's lover as a person, although Annie was seeing him as a distorted rage ghost.)

But she sees real beings, and they freak her out (as we're seeing with her take on the Arbitrater).

I wonder whether the "Neither of you are meant to be here" line is going to be brought up.

[bicarbonat]

May 15, 2020 7:54:54 GMT pyradonis said:

Fine, Kat, there is no way the two of them can be here now, so what has happened instead?

May 15, 2020 7:12:45 GMT bicarbonat said:

Okay, lady, how about you go and see the murder-dog and let us know how it goes. Something tells me you'll buy in bulk when you do.

...Or maybe just see a mangy dog operating a system of pulleys and levers made of rocks and kindling while it talks to its own ass.

Many people believe this, I do not. Kat saw through the smoke and mirrors of the RotD, but actual Etheric beings, like the psychopomps Ketrak and Ankou, did not appear any different to her than to anyone else.

All of the "smoke and mirrors" are real - just not of their own power. The ether combines with the "starter" provided by the RotD.

Tom has used the "a, but then b" several times to indicate that the second view/the view revealed after the characters have left is real. So while Kat might have seen a dickish RotD employee, this is real .

Kat poked a flipping eyeball with fangs, seeing only a video camera. The glyph-like aura around it had the same artistic effect as Anja and Eglamore's stuff, so unless that's shenanigans as well, I'm thinking that's a pretty good sign of an etheric form - aka, the eyeball Kat couldn't see.

Kat had to use the etheric tool she made from Diego's design to break into the ether, and even then, she and Annie had wildly differing views when it came to the encasing/maze holding Jeanne's lover and the resolution of it.

It's also worth noting that the psychopomps' entire function is to ferry the living into the ether, so being comprehensible to said beings is kind of...par for the course. And even with that property, they can still hide themselves from people who aren't etherically attuned. They might not bother to hide, but that's not saying much.

[aline]

May 15, 2020 8:33:33 GMT Futurismo said:

May 15, 2020 8:24:14 GMT merry76 said:

Wait a minute. Has Kat ever seen Coyote when he does tricks? Like warp reality or something?

Or was he always just a "Normal Being" in her eyes? And the reality warp just didnt happen for her?

Nope; Kat has never been in Coyote or Loup's presence before so we can't really be sure what would happen just yet.

I remember there were plans of Kat going into the forest with Annie, but her parents forbid it. Anybody remember that page? Maybe they were just cautious, but narratively speaking there is probably an important reason why Kat was never allowed to meet Coyote.

I'm glad she questions what happened, tbh. I have a lot of questions myself and finally someone is asking them for me.

[wanderer]

Kat... you can accept the Arbiter, but not this? Annie put a fingerprint on the moon, and yet this is what you decide is unbelievable?

[Jelly Jellybean]

May 15, 2020 11:08:31 GMT aline said:

May 15, 2020 8:33:33 GMT Futurismo said:

Nope; Kat has never been in Coyote or Loup's presence before so we can't really be sure what would happen just yet.

I remember there were plans of Kat going into the forest with Annie, but her parents forbid it. Anybody remember that page? Maybe they were just cautious, but narratively speaking there is probably an important reason why Kat was never allowed to meet Coyote.

I'm glad she questions what happened, tbh. I have a lot of questions myself and finally someone is asking them for me.

Chapter 14, The Fangs of Summertime, page 258.  Much later there was some speculation that Anja and Eglamore reacted so quickly because they knew Kat was special and had to be kept away from Coyote.

Annie told Coyote that Kat was not allowed to come into the Forest.

Also:  Kat, down that road lies madness.

Also Also:

May 15, 2020 7:03:03 GMT madjack said:

You know things are getting serious when the speech bubbles start crossing panel borders.

Breaking through and becoming more like Coyote (first border crossing I could quickly find).

EDIT:  There was earlier border breaking starting on page 676 and continuing in the pages that followed.

[migrantworker]

I don't know about you, but to me over the last two pages Forest Annie comes across as way too carefree, almost dismissive. Almost... childish.

...which may be a good thing, actually. Her carelessness obviously rubs Kat the wrong way, but at least it makes her open up. If only Court Annie was there, just looking at the floor and feeling guilty for being what she is, it would be that much easier for Kat to keep her concerns bottled up.

But it can also be a bad thing, if Forest Annie's dismissiveness does not stop at just the right moment (i.e. soon) and Kat begins to feel insulted by it. So maybe Court Annie should put her feelings aside and take over the conversation. She did have a good start.

Basically, Annies should play a less extreme variation of good cop/bad cop routine on Kat. Real-life policemen play it because it makes people talk. But can they pull it off, given how much coordination and personal/social awareness it requires?

I really don't think so. I think over the next week, we will see the argument escalating. Eventually Kat will forcibly remove the Annies from the basement, and they will end up in the back office - either dragged there by Kat, or because something will be said that makes them decide to do some snooping around. In the back office there will be something as yet unimaginable, which will provide a cliffhanger for the end of volume 8.

[Ahakarin]

... again, magic duplicates really shouldn't seem all that weird to her.

It's pretty small potatoes compared to manipulating celestial bodies and allowing your friends to leave fingerprints on them, something she's well aware that the power of Coyote can do.

[caber]

Kat, sweetie, you Macgyvered together an anti-gravity device to do a protein experiment when you were, what, 12?
THEN you turned that same device into a vehicle to save Anna.
What I'm trying to say is: pot, meet kettle.

[Gemini Jim]

I feel like Kat has been reading online forums.



I do suspect that part of the problem is that Kat hasn't encountered as much weirdness as Annie has; when she has been directly involved, she doesn't see what Annie sees.



I'm not sure why alternate dimensions would be more crazy to her than any of the other stuff, though.



EDIT: Maybe she's thinking there should be a third, original Annie, who is now missing. But that's not the same thing as impossible.

[ctso74]

May 15, 2020 12:10:50 GMT migrantworker said:

Basically, Annies should play a less extreme variation of good cop/bad cop routine on Kat. Real-life policemen play it because it makes people talk. But can they pull it off, given how much coordination and personal/social awareness it requires?

Bit of strange and unpleasant trivia: If memory serves me, the Nazis actually did experiments, to see what was the best method of getting info out of people. They'd seek intel from unwilling captives, intel that they already had, in order to judge the different methods' effectiveness. Being literal Nazis, we can all guess how extreme the methods got, but they also tried subtle approaches, like blackmail and simple bribery. Extreme methods resulted in poor info, as some people just made stuff up. No method was better at getting reliable intel than separating two captives, doing good cop/bad cop, and playing them off each other. Just like on all the cop shows. There's a reason police forces still use those techniques, they simply work.

In the back office there will be something as yet unimaginable, which will provide a cliffhanger for the end of volume 8.

I'm still thinking, the chapter thumbnail is from a virtual "Pepe Silvia" whiteboard, with old Annie pics and holographic red yarn.

[Gemini Jim]

May 15, 2020 13:39:49 GMT caber said:

Kat, sweetie, you Macgyvered together an anti-gravity device to do a protein experiment when you were, what, 12?
THEN you turned that same device into a vehicle to save Anna.
What I'm trying to say is: pot, meet kettle.

The thing is, the anti-grav device is technobabble. We don't know the exact method, but she probably used a flux capacitor to reverse the polarity of the trans-warp drive... et voila!

[migrantworker]

May 15, 2020 14:45:40 GMT ctso74 said:

May 15, 2020 12:10:50 GMT migrantworker said:

In the back office there will be something as yet unimaginable, which will provide a cliffhanger for the end of volume 8.

I'm still thinking, the chapter thumbnail is from a virtual "Pepe Silvia" whiteboard, with old Annie pics and holographic red yarn.

Kat had a practice run with one of those recently.

[apache]

Looks like Kat failed her SAN check.

FINALLY.

>

[Runningflame]

Time to pull out the old Doctor Who quote:

"You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit the views, which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering."

I don't think Kat is stupid. Maybe power is going to her head.

[noone3]

May 15, 2020 7:03:03 GMT madjack said:

You know things are getting serious when the speech bubbles start crossing panel borders.

Also Kat's hair is growing longer from panel to panel.

She might be going at least Saiyan 3 over the reality-continuity question pretty soon.

[Igniz]

Even when perceiving some of them in a different way than those attuned with the Ether, Kat is aware, has seen, been in presence, and witnessed the effects and/or abilities of:

• Arbiters
• Faeries
• Fire elementals
• Gods (from afar)
• Ghosts
• Jones
• People who talks to animals
• Plant manipulation
• Power bestowal
• Probability manipulation
• Psychopomps
• Reality warping
• The Realm Of The Dead and its affairs and records
• Renard
• Sentient animals
• Shadow People
• Talking animals
• Teleportation
• Time stopping or standing still

...among others. Yet she deems the fact that there are two Annies as impossible and refuses to accept the nature and scope of Coyote's powers in this particular instance.

May 15, 2020 18:21:43 GMT Runningflame said:

I don't think Kat is stupid. Maybe power is going to her head.

More than being "power mad", it's a typical case of Scully Syndrome.

[IvDead]

May 15, 2020 18:21:43 GMT Runningflame said:

Time to pull out the old Doctor Who quote:

"You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit the views, which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering."

I don't think Kat is stupid. Maybe power is going to her head.

Or maybe, between the days between the conversation with the arbiter Saslamel and this last page, Kat has been doing experiments and tests aimed at tracking the affected timelines, and picking/sending things between them and her timeline.


And her reaction on this last page, the "there is no way the two of you can be here right now!", may be explained if these experiments ended up resulting in failures, dead ends, or worse, pyrrhic* successes.


The Kat's freak out would make sense if everything Kat has tried so far has only proved (to her) that what Loup did is impossible, as Kat's "everything" includes a lot, since she is already using a combination of "mundane" science and etheric science. 


*pyrrhic in the sense that she managed to get something from another timeline (maybe even from the intended timeline), but something other than "and it continued to exist on this timeline with no adverse effects" happened, consistently, to the target subjects.

[pyradonis]

May 15, 2020 9:05:22 GMT bicarbonat said:

It's also worth noting that the psychopomps' entire function is to ferry the living into the ether, so being comprehensible to said beings is kind of...par for the course. And even with that property, they can still hide themselves from people who aren't etherically attuned. They might not bother to hide, but that's not saying much.

Then why don't the psychopomps look to Kat just like taxi drivers holding a sign with the deceased's name on it?

By the way, when the cruise ship was sucked into Zimmingham, Kat appeared to perceive the same things as all the others as well.

May 15, 2020 20:15:44 GMT IvDead said:

May 15, 2020 18:21:43 GMT Runningflame said:

Time to pull out the old Doctor Who quote:

"You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit the views, which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering."

I don't think Kat is stupid. Maybe power is going to her head.

Or maybe, between the days between the conversation with the arbiter Saslamel and this last page, Kat has been doing experiments and tests aimed at tracking the affected timelines, and picking/sending things between them and her timeline.


And her reaction on this last page, the "there is no way the two of you can be here right now!", may be explained if these experiments ended up resulting in failures, dead ends, or worse, pyrrhic* successes.[...]

Haha, now I am imagining...

"There is no way the two of you can be here right now! I used my matter transporter to send you to your correct timelines!"

or
"There is no way the two of you can be here right now! I killed (one of) you yesterday!"

or...

[imaginaryfriend]

Though the RotD is a creepshow made from smoke and mirrors the ether makes it real. That means the RotD is something that humans have actively shaped and maintain, albeit dead humans. How they can check credentials and what Diego did to Jeanne that prevented them from "accessing her records" suggests the RotD as a collective can collect information the same way other etheric entities like Coyote and "Loup" do: directly.  Someone who wasn't supposed to be in the RotD would probably have a much different experience there, depending on how far the dead want to take it.  Kat could probably see through the show because 1. it's something made with human artifice and understanding how things work is what she's good at, even etheric tech things, and 2. she probably doesn't really believe in "monsters" and knows firsthand that ghosts are just people.  On the other hand Kat believes in psychopomps and they are naturally occurring etheric beings, even though humans shape them indirectly through belief.  Thus Kat could see Ketrak once he enabled it, and also met and talked to Muut. Ankou scared the crap out of her in contrast to how she reacted to the RotD.