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Post by Zox Tomana on Jun 4, 2019 3:11:11 GMT
This all feels like a very stupid idea agreed upon by people who forgot that the only reason Renard is allowed to not be locked up in a warehouse with metal bars ramming through his hands is because he’s owned by a person instead. I doubt anyone involved will be telling the Court that Annie no longer has possession of Rey. And the revelation that Rey's body is still alive has yet to bear any fruit, so one imagines that this could be setting up the plot which will cause Rey to return to the Forest to reclaim his own body... Furthermore, if it ends up being a problem, wouldn't Rey simply have to acknowledge Annie as being the owner of his body anew and suddenly they'd be under a contract again? |
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Post by todd on Jun 4, 2019 3:34:26 GMT
And the revelation that Rey's body is still alive has yet to bear any fruit, so one imagines that this could be setting up the plot which will cause Rey to return to the Forest to reclaim his own body... Though heading there before they've solved the "frozen in time" problem (which isn't likely until they've dealt with Loup, somehow) doesn't seem advisable.... |
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Post by warrl on Jun 4, 2019 5:01:08 GMT
And I suspect that Arthur's response to this will be "I own Reynard? What do I want with that? Here, Annie, you can have him back."
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Post by ohthatone on Jun 4, 2019 16:45:06 GMT
This all feels like a very stupid idea agreed upon by people who forgot that the only reason Renard is allowed to not be locked up in a warehouse with metal bars ramming through his hands is because he’s owned by a person instead. I doubt anyone involved will be telling the Court that Annie no longer has possession of Rey. And the revelation that Rey's body is still alive has yet to bear any fruit, so one imagines that this could be setting up the plot which will cause Rey to return to the Forest to reclaim his own body... Furthermore, if it ends up being a problem, wouldn't Rey simply have to acknowledge Annie as being the owner of his body anew and suddenly they'd be under a contract again? Agree on your first point, but on your second I don't think it would be as simple as that. If I'm understanding this correctly (and it's entirely possible I don't), with Rey and Annie's contract being effectively dissolved Rey would now have ownership of the body, making the body as an object to own no longer applicable. So for him to say later say "I declare Annie the owner of this body" would be the same as any other person saying someone else owns their body. |
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Post by DonDueed on Jun 4, 2019 16:51:24 GMT
Okay, I think I finally understand the multi-use contract situation.
The original contract was Annie's ownership of the toy (which Rey inhabits), not ownership of Rey himself (since he's a living mind). That contract predates Rey's possession of the toy, naturally.
Kat copied that contract using the arrow during a legal transfer of that ownership. After studying the contract, she used it in the attempt to transfer Arthur's mind from the robot body to the flesh one. The intent was to give Arthur "legal" possession of his flesh body. But that would mean the same contract was being used for two entirely different purposes (Annie -> toy, Arthur -> new body). Hence Saslamel's interdiction (*hums You Can't Do That*).
In no case would this have given Arthur possession of the toy (and therefore Rey). What's more, the problem won't be solved by Annie giving the toy to someone else, since that would not negate the original contract, just change its terms; that would still result in a multi-use violation. Annie will have to renounce possession of the toy entirely, thereby giving Rey his freedom. (Dun dun dun!)
I think this is consistent with everything we've heard from Clippy, assuming they're on the level and this all isn't one big hoax or Loup trick. Now for a reread to check...
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Edit: Okay, one big possible issue is on page 2150, where Clippy says "You (Kat) were about to transfer her (Annie's) contract of ownership of him (Rey) to a new creature (Arthur)". But Clippy doesn't say the ownership was being transferred, just the contract of ownership. I think this is still consistent with my interpretation above.
It's also consistent when Clippy mentions that the original contract was a "regular" one for ownership of an inanimate object. So that term would be violated by the copy since it has a living being (Arthur) as one of its principals. Clippy spells that out on page 2154. And on the current page we get confirmation that Annie has to give up, not transfer, ownership of the Rey-toy. I think it holds together.
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Post by netherdan on Jun 4, 2019 17:08:53 GMT
And I suspect that Arthur's response to this will be "I own Reynard? What do I want with that? Here, Annie, you can have him back." *roll credits* |
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Post by mturtle7 on Jun 4, 2019 18:29:05 GMT
Okay, I think I finally understand the multi-use contract situation.
The original contract was Annie's ownership of the toy (which Rey inhabits), not ownership of Rey himself (since he's a living mind). That contract predates Rey's possession of the toy, naturally.
Kat copied that contract using the arrow during a legal transfer of that ownership. After studying the contract, she used it in the attempt to transfer Arthur's mind from the robot body to the flesh one. The intent was to give Arthur "legal" possession of his flesh body. But that would mean the same contract was being used for two entirely different purposes (Annie -> toy, Arthur -> new body). Hence Saslamel's interdiction (*hums You Can't Do That*).
In no case would this have given Arthur possession of the toy (and therefore Rey). What's more, the problem won't be solved by Annie giving the toy to someone else, since that would not negate the original contract, just change its terms; that would still result in a multi-use violation. Annie will have to renounce possession of the toy entirely, thereby giving Rey his freedom. (Dun dun dun!)
I think this is consistent with everything we've heard from Clippy, assuming they're on the level and this all isn't one big hoax or Loup trick. Now for a reread to check...
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Edit: Okay, one big possible issue is on page 2150, where Clippy says "You (Kat) were about to transfer her (Annie's) contract of ownership of him (Rey) to a new creature (Arthur)". But Clippy doesn't say the ownership was being transferred, just the contract of ownership. I think this is still consistent with my interpretation above.
It's also consistent when Clippy mentions that the original contract was a "regular" one for ownership of an inanimate object. So that term would be violated by the copy since it has a living being (Arthur) as one of its principals. Clippy spells that out on page 2154. And on the current page we get confirmation that Annie has to give up, not transfer, ownership of the Rey-toy. I think it holds together.
Holds together pretty well! To add a little clarification, the reasoning behind Annie negating her current contract with Rey is that this will then negate the whole messy "contract" with Arthur and his new body, thus allowing Kat to negotiate a completely new contract with Salsamel (and Clippy).
Also, the funny thing here is that it doesn't actually matter what, precisely, Kat was trying to do with Arthur and his new body. She could have been trying to give his mind ownership of his body, or his mind ownership of itself, or simply negate the Court's ownership of him; for all we know, she might not have been trying to do anything in particular with ownership stuff, and that was just an accidental consequence of trying to transfer minds. Regardless, Annie's contract was being copied for some sort of other purpose involving a newly-living being, and that's just not acceptable to Salsamel & Clippy.
Salsamel & Clippy. Clippy & Salsamel. I will NEVER get tired of saying these names together, and also imagining them as a superhero-sidekick team, or maybe a buddy cop movie, or maybe a wacky cartoon. It's just so fun to say.
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Post by Gemini Jim on Jun 4, 2019 19:42:33 GMT
Plot twist: Under the strict dictates of the "If you love something, let it go" doctrine, Rey's refusal to leave in the last panel means that a new Annie/ Rey contract can be written up. Nah, that's probably not it. Rey's situation is really weird, if you think about it. Annie owns the doll, so she "owns" Rey. Apply that contract to Arthur (by using the arrow for the body-mind transfer), and you now have a slave. Slave contracts are a no-no. That's probably where the problem lies. Free Rey from his contract, and you free Arthur as well. Of course, a marriage license would also be A New Contract; just not a contract of ownership. Also, Salsa Mel is a guy who sells Mexican sauces. |
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Post by pyradonis on Jun 4, 2019 23:10:39 GMT
Rey's situation is really weird, if you think about it. Annie owns the doll, so she "owns" Rey. Apply that contract to Arthur (by using the arrow for the body-mind transfer), and you now have a slave. Slave contracts are a no-no. That's probably where the problem lies. Am I the only one who thinks that the Annie-Rey contract is a slave contract as well and should have been given up long ago?! It is actually worse than that because Rey cannot even try to refuse an order. The longer the comic went on, the worse did it feel to me that Annie literally owns her friend as a slave who has to obey every single thing she says, even if she does not intend to issue an order. |
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Post by pyradonis on Jun 4, 2019 23:10:52 GMT
Salsamel & Clippy. Clippy & Salsamel. I will NEVER get tired of saying these names together, and also imagining them as a superhero-sidekick team, or maybe a buddy cop movie, or maybe a wacky cartoon. It's just so fun to say.
I hope it still sounds just as funny to you when I wise-guy remark that the arbiter's name is Saslamel, not Salsamel. But then again, Clippy's name is most probably not Clippy as well, so who cares? |
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Post by todd on Jun 5, 2019 0:23:17 GMT
Am I the only one who thinks that the Annie-Rey contract is a slave contract as well and should have been given up long ago?! It is actually worse than that because Rey cannot even try to refuse an order. The longer the comic went on, the worse did it feel to me that Annie literally owns her friend as a slave who has to obey every single thing she says, even if she does not intend to issue an order. The problem is that without it, Rey would be free to possess (and thereby) kill people once more, and though he doesn't want to do that, the Court is convinced that he would - might even go on a deliberate body-hopping rampage to wipe out almost everyone in it. Which means that as soon as they find out that Annie no longer owns him, he'd be back in a prison cell in a hurry. (Unless Annie got him back into the woods and his original body, which would be difficult - all the more so thanks to Loup's "time freeze".) |
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Post by DonDueed on Jun 5, 2019 1:04:18 GMT
Rey's situation is really weird, if you think about it. Annie owns the doll, so she "owns" Rey. Apply that contract to Arthur (by using the arrow for the body-mind transfer), and you now have a slave. Slave contracts are a no-no. That's probably where the problem lies. Am I the only one who thinks that the Annie-Rey contract is a slave contract as well and should have been given up long ago?! It is actually worse than that because Rey cannot even try to refuse an order. The longer the comic went on, the worse did it feel to me that Annie literally owns her friend as a slave who has to obey every single thing she says, even if she does not intend to issue an order. Agreed. It's pretty much the same as the "mind control" jail that Kat is being threatened with. That's a horrifying prospect, but Rey has been in a very similar situation throughout most of the comic. It doesn't seem so bad because Annie is a kind master and gives Rey a lot of freedom, but it's certainly a form of slavery.
I guess you could call it his prison sentence for killing the boy he possessed before Sivo, and of course Sivo as well.
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Post by Gemini Jim on Jun 5, 2019 2:14:45 GMT
Am I the only one who thinks that the Annie-Rey contract is a slave contract as well and should have been given up long ago?! It is actually worse than that because Rey cannot even try to refuse an order. The longer the comic went on, the worse did it feel to me that Annie literally owns her friend as a slave who has to obey every single thing she says, even if she does not intend to issue an order. Agreed. It's pretty much the same as the "mind control" jail that Kat is being threatened with. That's a horrifying prospect, but Rey has been in a very similar situation throughout most of the comic. It doesn't seem so bad because Annie is a kind master and gives Rey a lot of freedom, but it's certainly a form of slavery. I guess you could call it his prison sentence for killing the boy he possessed before Sivu, and of course Sivu as well. This chapter really gives us a rare look at the nuts-and-bolts of Annie's relationship with Rey. And it is an uncomfortable one when you stop to examine it. Rey sometimes gets treated like the family dog - a highly-intelligent, talking dog - but he's certainly not that. I like the prison analogy. Perhaps that's one reason why Rey's apparent slave contract is tolerated by Clippy and Salsa Mel when the accidental slavery of Arthur isn't. |
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Post by saardvark on Jun 5, 2019 10:53:00 GMT
I like the prison analogy. Perhaps that's one reason why Rey's apparent slave contract is tolerated by Clippy and Salsa Mel when the accidental slavery of Arthur isn't. Salsa Mel...ha! I like that. Was that on purpose, or an amusing spell-check error? |
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Post by pyradonis on Jun 5, 2019 11:25:37 GMT
Am I the only one who thinks that the Annie-Rey contract is a slave contract as well and should have been given up long ago?! It is actually worse than that because Rey cannot even try to refuse an order. The longer the comic went on, the worse did it feel to me that Annie literally owns her friend as a slave who has to obey every single thing she says, even if she does not intend to issue an order. Agreed. It's pretty much the same as the "mind control" jail that Kat is being threatened with. That's a horrifying prospect, but Rey has been in a very similar situation throughout most of the comic. It doesn't seem so bad because Annie is a kind master and gives Rey a lot of freedom, but it's certainly a form of slavery.
I guess you could call it his prison sentence for killing the boy he possessed before Sivo, and of course Sivo as well.
Yes, that interpretation is probably the only makes that makes the situation somewhat agreeable...and also fits with what Rey said to Hetty (although I think he does not feel that bad for possessing Sivo, whom he claims to have beaten in a fair fight before). Still, Annie is a child and has not been above abusing her power over Rey ("Fire Spike"). She also has given him orders without intending to ("Quicksilver"). I would gladly welcome a New Contract. |
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Post by pyradonis on Jun 5, 2019 11:28:35 GMT
Am I the only one who thinks that the Annie-Rey contract is a slave contract as well and should have been given up long ago?! It is actually worse than that because Rey cannot even try to refuse an order. The longer the comic went on, the worse did it feel to me that Annie literally owns her friend as a slave who has to obey every single thing she says, even if she does not intend to issue an order. The problem is that without it, Rey would be free to possess (and thereby) kill people once more, and though he doesn't want to do that, the Court is convinced that he would - might even go on a deliberate body-hopping rampage to wipe out almost everyone in it. Which means that as soon as they find out that Annie no longer owns him, he'd be back in a prison cell in a hurry. (Unless Annie got him back into the woods and his original body, which would be difficult - all the more so thanks to Loup's "time freeze".) Since no one in the Court, not even Tony, who is "in deeper than most" and certainly knows a lot about covert ops and surveillance, figured out that Rey's body was owned by Kat for quite some time, I am sure the Court could not find out whether he is free, as long as he sticks with Annie. |
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Post by Gemini Jim on Jun 5, 2019 18:29:30 GMT
I like the prison analogy. Perhaps that's one reason why Rey's apparent slave contract is tolerated by Clippy and Salsa Mel when the accidental slavery of Arthur isn't. Salsa Mel...ha! I like that. Was that on purpose, or an amusing spell-check error? Well, mturtle7 spelled it "Salsamel," and I just noticed the obvious. |
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Post by mturtle7 on Jun 5, 2019 19:41:53 GMT
Salsa Mel...ha! I like that. Was that on purpose, or an amusing spell-check error? Well, mturtle7 spelled it "Salsamel," and I just noticed the obvious. Wow. This is such a ridiculous mistake, and I was totally oblivious to it...I should probably fix that...hm....
On the other hand, that WOULD invalidate Gemini Jim's awesome joke. So instead, I'll just keep spelling it like this forever.
("Salsamel&Clippy") ("Clippy&Salsamel") (Even when it's not practically midnight and I'm exhausted, it's still really fun to say) (Don't judge me)
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Post by Runningflame on Jun 13, 2019 20:43:26 GMT
Well, mturtle7 spelled it "Salsamel," and I just noticed the obvious. Wow. This is such a ridiculous mistake, and I was totally oblivious to it...I should probably fix that...hm....
On the other hand, that WOULD invalidate Gemini Jim 's awesome joke. So instead, I'll just keep spelling it like this forever.
("Salsamel&Clippy") ("Clippy&Salsamel") (Even when it's not practically midnight and I'm exhausted, it's still really fun to say) (Don't judge me)
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Post by jda on Jun 14, 2019 7:06:28 GMT
Wow. This is such a ridiculous mistake, and I was totally oblivious to it...I should probably fix that...hm.... On the other hand, that WOULD invalidate Gemini Jim 's awesome joke. So instead, I'll just keep spelling it like this forever. ("Salsamel&Clippy") ("Clippy&Salsamel") (Even when it's not practically midnight and I'm exhausted, it's still really fun to say) (Don't judge me)
Salsa Mel's's a Clippin her hair! (2 am here, continue not judging) |
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