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Post by mturtle7 on Jan 5, 2019 23:21:37 GMT
I find the discussion on this thread really odd. Why is everyone analyzing Tony's actions, but not his words? I feel like his statements on this page are incredibly significant. First of all, although very far from an actual apology, Tony's first statement is a hint to Annie that he doesn't approve of his personality and/or past actions. Second, it establishes that he's found a way to relate to Annie through a problem they have in common. The last one might be the biggest. "We'll figure it this out". Tony is someone who obsesses over fixing problems. His last big one was trying to fix Surma, at which he failed. Now, possibly he sees a second chance to fix someone, maybe even a chance at redeeming himself in Annie's eyes, by fixing her split-person problem. Who knows what he thinks he's going to do to fix the situation? He might not even have an idea himself. It's just that, before now, he's seen his presence in Annie's life as unwanted and unconstructive. Now? Now he has something to work with. When I began reading Gunnerkrigg Court (I read chapters 1-61 almost two years ago, and couldn't put it down until I reached the then-current chapter), I felt that Annie's relationship with her parents was the heart of the story, and I still think so now. And this page is very important in that aspect. Helluva first post, coastal! Welcome to the forums!
I guess Tony's actions have just been so big and controversial for so long, that forum-goers aren't used to actually paying attention to his words! You just made some really insightful points there, and now you've got me thinking about how his obsession with his own problems was kind of why he could never acknowledge his daughter as real, independent person, with powers and problems of her own. In Evac, we saw him start to admit that maybe there's more to Antimony than he thought there was. Now, it's like he's not only recognizing that Antimony has her own problems that are just as bad as his own (if not worse), he's also recognizing that she has the power to help him with HIS problems. Never has an offer to help with dinner been SO FREAKING SIGNIFICANT. Like Donald said that one time, " with tony, the smallest thing can carry the greatest weight."
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Post by tc on Jan 6, 2019 13:55:47 GMT
Aw, shucks... De nada. Here's how I see it - we learned from Eglamore that Tony seems to be connected with some of the deepest secrets of the Court. We know that Tony is wary of discussing his parents and in the Brazil "flashback" chapter, we saw him instinctively move to comfort Anja and Donny, then consciously pull back. This makes me wonder if there's something about Tony's family history and connection to the Court which makes him fear the potential consequences for people who get too close to him. Surma ended up becoming an "agent" of sorts for the Court (e.g. the quasi-seduction of Renard), so it would appear that she ended up getting in pretty deep too, and Surma being Surma would have done so only with her eyes wide open to the possible consequences. We've also been shown that Tony consistently deferred to Surma's wishes, presumably out of love and the trust that goes with it. For what it's worth, I believe that Tony has *always* thought very highly of Annie as a person in her own right - and I'm certain that he loves her fiercely as such, regardless of his love for Surma. As I said before (and as Runningflame acknowledged), prior to "Evac", every interaction between Tony and Annie since his return occurred under heavy Court surveillance. He knows more than most how ruthless the Court can be - and we know that the Court demanded that Tony chastise Annie on its behalf by threatening Tony with Annie's permanent exile, which would in turn destroy any hope of solving the fire elemental condition which threatens her life. Among other things, what that page in "Evac" showed was that since his return, Tony had dedicated himself to finding out as much about his daughter as he could without putting her in further danger from the Court's attention. I don't believe that he ever doubted Annie's potential or abilities, rather that (as tends to be the case with a parent who has been away for an extended period) he still instinctively perceived her as the child she was as opposed to the young woman she is becoming now, and (again instinctively) tried to protect her as such. My guess is that Tony was born to parents who were deeply involved in the Court's intelligence section, and that he and Surma in turn became intelligence agents themselves - with Tony following a more scientific/medical path and Surma becoming a field agent prior to her pregnancy.
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Post by youwiththeface on Jan 7, 2019 7:24:18 GMT
]There's also a third option. Fucking apologize. Talk it out with Antimony and tell her why you acted like that, make it clear to her that you recognize now how that was a mistake and that it hurt her, reassure her that you are going to try to stop that behavior now because you recognize how it was bad for her and yourself and your relationship with each other, and let her vent to you about how she felt about it and how she thinks you could do things better. Oh, and while you're at it, you could apologize for nearly killing her while you were trying to bring back her dead mom, and also for how snappish you were about her asking about your new hand, because it totally was her business, all considering. Antimony has clearly suffered because of Tony's behavior. Moving right along past their previous interactions into happy fun functional family land without acknowledging that invalidates the pain Annie's been in and ignores anything Tony could be doing to help her heal it. Not to mention that it gives her no emotional stability if he's going to bounce from one set of behaviors to another. She's never going to feel like she can trust him to be consistent with her if he keeps changing around. My dude, a protracted conversation and apology with Tony about his wrongdoings in the past is not what Annie needs right now. She's confused, lost, and alone in a world that, from her perspective, she belonged to just a few hours ago. More than anything, she needs a comforting presence, and Tony has every right to be that presence if he's worked through his intense social anxiety enough to be able to provide it for her. And aside from that, Annie is so emotionally and socially off balance right now that she might not be able to handle such a heavy problem so deeply embedded in her psyche, especially if she potentially doesn't have Kat to fall back on. The apologies and asking for forgiveness can wait until later. Let the man comfort his daughter. I could agree with this if I thought this was at all what Tony's motivations were. My bet is they're closer to "Well that happened! Let's move along now because I, for one, could not give less of a shit about any of the potential emotional ramifications for either of my daughters, ha!"
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Post by aline on Jan 7, 2019 21:35:58 GMT
Sure, once you started being a dick, you should keep doing that until you die. Never ever try to better yourself, it's just plain annoying. Want some gasoline? If we pour it on that strawman it'll burn so much better. Look, I get where you come from. But Annie just came back from a very confusing and scary meeting with a demi-god to find out she's now competing with a double for her life at home. You think it's the perfect time to launch into a long, heart-wringing apology, I think it's a perfect time to make dinner and make her feel welcome. Frankly, if he picked such a time to say, well, all the stuff you listed, *that* would annoy me. It's going to be a painful conversation for Annie, and bring up a lot of difficult feelings. She's got enough on her plate right now without dad making it all about his tragic backstory the minute she gets home. I do hope she'll get her apology, though.
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Post by maxptc on Jan 9, 2019 2:44:26 GMT
I could agree with this if I thought this was at all what Tony's motivations were. My bet is they're closer to "Well that happened! Let's move along now because I, for one, could not give less of a shit about any of the potential emotional ramifications for either of my daughters, ha!" You're entitled to think that's why he's doing this, but regardless of the motivation the actions are appropriate. In fact if those are close to his thoughts his actions are an unbelievable and incredibly kind departure from Tony's norm. I mean he could just as easily have done nothing or said a curt dismissal and just kept going about his business if he didn't care about the ramifications. Even if we assume the worst about him as a whole, he at least made things less awkward or tried to placate Annie. Having said that, it still seems a stretch to me to paint him that way. But we are on different wavelengths about Tony, so that figures. It would take some direct actions to get me off the "he's trying despite being bad in the past/he's just crap at group socializing" wagon, and I know what it would take to make you not hate the guy.
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Post by youwiththeface on Jan 9, 2019 5:10:50 GMT
Want some gasoline? If we pour it on that strawman it'll burn so much better. Look, I get where you come from. But Annie just came back from a very confusing and scary meeting with a demi-god to find out she's now competing with a double for her life at home. You think it's the perfect time to launch into a long, heart-wringing apology, I think it's a perfect time to make dinner and make her feel welcome. I never even argued that's what he should do at that very moment . All I ever said was his cheery demeanor with Annie here bothered me because it was in such stark contrast to how we always saw him acting with her before. I could agree with this if I thought this was at all what Tony's motivations were. My bet is they're closer to "Well that happened! Let's move along now because I, for one, could not give less of a shit about any of the potential emotional ramifications for either of my daughters, ha!" You're entitled to think that's why he's doing this, but regardless of the motivation the actions are appropriate. Eh, debatable. But even if this is the right course of action to take at this moment, I feel like I can't give him too much credit for it because the most likely scenario is he stumbled onto the right thing to do by accident. Given his track record.
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Post by maxptc on Jan 9, 2019 5:44:46 GMT
Eh, debatable. But even if this is the right course of action to take at this moment, I feel like I can't give him too much credit for it because the most likely scenario is he stumbled onto the right thing to do by accident. Given his track record. Tony's track record doesn't read very "stumbled into it" to me. Everything he does seems deliberate to an extreme point, for the better of worse. I think Tony just has a personality/narrative that strikes a chord in you, one that has you veiwing him through a much harsher lense then me. Dont get me wrong, dudes a dick, but that doesn't mean everything he does comes with a selfish or antagonist motive.
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Post by tc on Jan 9, 2019 19:46:43 GMT
The thing is, I don't think he is. Reading between the lines, everything he's done since his return has deflected the Court's wrath away from Annie - even if it potentially resulted in her hating him for it.
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Post by keef on Jan 9, 2019 22:14:33 GMT
The thing is, I don't think he is. I agree. Now you're almost making a saint out of him . He behaved dickishly when he first came back, no excuses, he admits it himself (yes, that's an interpretation of his words, but it seems like the kind of "truth" a drunk man will tell). Semi-off-topic, semi-moralistic observation:
Every person will be a dick at some point in his or her life (to misquote Zappa: Yes, ladies you can be a dick too). Becoming a better person starts with acknowledging you've been one and try not to be one from there on. So he's doing the right thing I guess.
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Post by maxptc on Jan 10, 2019 4:20:29 GMT
The thing is, I don't think he is. Reading between the lines, everything he's done since his return has deflected the Court's wrath away from Annie - even if it potentially resulted in her hating him for it. Still a dick, but that's just how I'd characterise someone who is a so detached and willing to vilify himself in order to protect others. He is kinda like Snape, motives and actions may be understandable and even honorable overall but still a dick.
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Post by maxptc on Jan 10, 2019 4:28:12 GMT
He behaved dickishly when he first came back, no excuses, he admits it himself (yes, that's an interpretation of his words, but it seems like the kind of "truth" a drunk man will tell). I like and agree that he is trying to be a better person, but I don't fully support the idea of "if you're trying now you aren't a dick regardless of the past". I get it, he's trying and I'm not on the "Let's Lynch Tony" side of things, but being forgiven and even improving yourself doesn't just wash out past actions, at least not certain past actions. Being a dick to a certain degree or repetitively is different then how everyone is a jerk sometimes.
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Post by tc on Jan 12, 2019 14:18:14 GMT
Now you're almost making a saint out of him Not at all! However I'd argue that with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, standing between the Court and Annie seems to have been his primary motivation. but I don't fully support the idea of "if you're trying now you aren't a dick regardless of the past". Which is fair enough. However I'd argue it's very important to ascertain whether that "dickish" behaviour was a matter of personal choice versus being compelled to do so by others under duress. [EDIT : And in addition, if Surma's instinctive judgement of character and motivation was sharp enough to hoodwink Renard (who is, let's not forget, an etheric demi-god several thousand years old), is it not fair to argue that she'd have seen any significant shortcomings in Tony very early on? ]
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Post by maxptc on Jan 13, 2019 6:06:59 GMT
[EDIT : And in addition, if Surma's instinctive judgement of character and motivation was sharp enough to hoodwink Renard (who is, let's not forget, an etheric demi-god several thousand years old), is it not fair to argue that she'd have seen any significant shortcomings in Tony very early on? ] Keep in mind I'm not really a big Tony critic or fan and this isn't a popular position, but what makes him a dick isn't his inherit character, but choices he made as a result of his character/personality/temperament/emotional capacity/where he placed blame/whatever. Surma definitely saw his flaws (the he still loves you comment to Annie), but being distance and awkward doesn't make you a dick nor does it mean you'll be a bad partner, so Surma wouldn't have had any reason to think he would dip on Annie or almost murder her. Which is fair enough. However I'd argue it's very important to ascertain whether that "dickish" behaviour was a matter of personal choice versus being compelled to do so by others under duress. Eh, that's only important in a "good vs evil" style mindset. If you are truly 100% forced to do something, like at gunpoint, maybe you can aruge you aren't a dick, but that wasn't the case here. Even then, you have the choice between doing the thing and death. Tony had a choice in how he treated Annie. While that choice was between "be a dick" or "Annie can't live in the court", an unfair and crazy choice he was backed into, it was still a choice, with positives and negatives either way. It was pretty clear to me that being a jerk by instruction wasn't that hard for Tony, while being supportive seems like a growing process for him.
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Post by tc on Jan 13, 2019 11:51:01 GMT
...where he placed blame/whatever. Surma definitely saw his flaws (the he still loves you comment to Annie) See, the thing is that some readers started reading all kinds of subtext into that page *after* Tony's return; specifically theorising that Tony's expression somehow implies that he blames Annie for Surma's condition and eventual death. All that page actually shows is a man who has been crying and is clearly emotionally overwhelmed to the extent that he can't talk to his daughter at that point in time. [Also, he explicitly stated to Donny that the only person be blames for Surma's death is himself.] The Court threatened to permanently exile Annie if Tony didn't comply with their orders. Outside of the Court's facilities there is no possibility of solving the fire elemental condition which threatens Annie's life. If that's not metaphorically "at gunpoint" as far as Tony's concerned, I don't know what is.
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Post by maxptc on Jan 13, 2019 17:24:59 GMT
...where he placed blame/whatever. Surma definitely saw his flaws (the he still loves you comment to Annie) See, the thing is that some readers started reading all kinds of subtext into that page *after* Tony's return; specifically theorising that Tony's expression somehow implies that he blames Annie for Surma's condition and eventual death. All that page actually shows is a man who has been crying and is clearly emotionally overwhelmed to the extent that he can't talk to his daughter at that point in time. [Also, he explicitly stated to Donny that the only person be blames for Surma's death is himself.] The Court threatened to permanently exile Annie if Tony didn't comply with their orders. Outside of the Court's facilities there is no possibility of solving the fire elemental condition which threatens Annie's life. If that's not metaphorically "at gunpoint" as far as Tony's concerned, I don't know what is. I'm not saying he blames Annie, just that his reaction was a flaw Surma understood. That's a bit of an overstatement imo. No possibility implies the court is the only place with magic, which isn't the case based on Tonys travels, or that he couldn't have figured out other ways to utilize court resources/continue his research, which doesn't seem right to me. Not saying it wasn't a brutal choice, just that it was in fact a choice with postives and negatives either way. Did Tony make the right call? I think so, and from a story prespetive for sure. But if one wanted to they could agrue a shorter lifespan that comes with being a part fire elemental isn't the end of the world. As such, that Tony was willing to potentially sacrifice his relationship with Annie is kind of a dick move, even if he felt put under a gun.
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Post by avurai on Jan 14, 2019 13:33:11 GMT
See, the thing is that some readers started reading all kinds of subtext into that page *after* Tony's return; specifically theorising that Tony's expression somehow implies that he blames Annie for Surma's condition and eventual death. All that page actually shows is a man who has been crying and is clearly emotionally overwhelmed to the extent that he can't talk to his daughter at that point in time. [Also, he explicitly stated to Donny that the only person be blames for Surma's death is himself.] The Court threatened to permanently exile Annie if Tony didn't comply with their orders. Outside of the Court's facilities there is no possibility of solving the fire elemental condition which threatens Annie's life. If that's not metaphorically "at gunpoint" as far as Tony's concerned, I don't know what is. I'm not saying he blames Annie, just that his reaction was a flaw Surma understood. That's a bit of an overstatement imo. No possibility implies the court is the only place with magic, which isn't the case based on Tonys travels, or that he couldn't have figured out other ways to utilize court resources/continue his research, which doesn't seem right to me. Not saying it wasn't a brutal choice, just that it was in fact a choice with postives and negatives either way. Did Tony make the right call? I think so, and from a story prespetive for sure. But if one wanted to they could agrue a shorter lifespan that comes with being a part fire elemental isn't the end of the world. As such, that Tony was willing to potentially sacrifice his relationship with Annie is kind of a dick move, even if he felt put under a gun. We’re going about this all backwards. Anthony could’ve fulfilled the Court’s wishes without being antagonistic and outright insulting towards his vulnerable daughter in the power of his own classroom and springing all of the changes on her in the span of five minutes of seeing her again after years of abandonment. This isn’t about what he did, it’s how he did it. To get lil’ Winsbury pissed off on Annie’s behalf is a real feat, and Tony seemed more than willing to pull it off. There’s a reason why this was the aspect of the interaction Anthony was so emotional about when he got drunk. It was shitty as hell.
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Post by maxptc on Jan 14, 2019 15:38:08 GMT
I'm not saying he blames Annie, just that his reaction was a flaw Surma understood. That's a bit of an overstatement imo. No possibility implies the court is the only place with magic, which isn't the case based on Tonys travels, or that he couldn't have figured out other ways to utilize court resources/continue his research, which doesn't seem right to me. Not saying it wasn't a brutal choice, just that it was in fact a choice with postives and negatives either way. Did Tony make the right call? I think so, and from a story prespetive for sure. But if one wanted to they could agrue a shorter lifespan that comes with being a part fire elemental isn't the end of the world. As such, that Tony was willing to potentially sacrifice his relationship with Annie is kind of a dick move, even if he felt put under a gun. We’re going about this all backwards. Anthony could’ve fulfilled the Court’s wishes without being antagonistic and outright insulting towards his vulnerable daughter in the power of his own classroom and springing all of the changes on her in the span of five minutes of seeing her again after years of abandonment. This isn’t about what he did, it’s how he did it. To get lil’ Winsbury pissed off on Annie’s behalf is a real feat, and Tony seemed more than willing to pull it off. There’s a reason why this was the aspect of the interaction Anthony was so emotional about when he got drunk. It was shitty as hell. Also a great point. He didn't need to be a jerk to reign Annie in, and that's all the court wanted. Had he come back with Annie or just had some communication with her, she probably wouldn't have acted out nearly as much, Tony not being around seemed like a big reason Annie was being a little shit.
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