fjodorii
Full Member
It just does, ok?
Posts: 134
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Post by fjodorii on Aug 8, 2018 15:01:29 GMT
Huh. I find it a bit interesting that our Techno Angel isn't envisioned in Loup's little wheeling spiel, especially because practically everyone knows Kat is Annie's best friend. And also a scary mishmash of technology & etheric alter-ego.
That is probably exactly why: remember how Zimmy reacted to Kat's etheric being, maybe it scares even Loup?
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Post by Spoopy on Aug 8, 2018 15:08:53 GMT
Oh goodness the "handsome boy" and girl are terrifying. You'd have to be pretty desperate to lay down with Coyote and Ys pretending to be a seductive human. Although I kind of wish Annie would say yes just so I could see that hilarious horror.
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Post by Runningflame on Aug 8, 2018 15:35:26 GMT
I think Loup is projecting tons of confidence that he doesn't actually have. He's composed of two beings that both individually tended to "front" a lot, Coyote with just being brainlessly confident and misleadingly jovial all the time, and Ys who already projected power and confidence despite tons of self doubt. Together, all those things are just amplified. So I suspect what we're seeing is Loup trying to convince Annie of how perfectly he has his act together and how powerful and commanding he is, when in fact he is absolutely LOSING HIS MIND internally because these two personalities don't really gel at a base level. I like this theory a lot. Let's not forget about the first panel of this page: Loup looks absolutely, terrifyingly bonkers on the inside, but suave and calm on the outside. The question is, if Annie calls his bluff, is he going to break down sobbing, or become enraged and attack her? |
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Post by youwiththeface on Aug 8, 2018 16:49:26 GMT
I think it's worth pointing out Coyote's played this particular card before, though probably not to this degree. I wonder if Loup's making a play not just for Annie but Renard. If Annie get's trapped in the woods there's no chance Renard wouldn't come back to them after her. |
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Post by fia on Aug 8, 2018 17:20:07 GMT
Oh goodness the "handsome boy" and girl are terrifying. You'd have to be pretty desperate to lay down with Coyote and Ys pretending to be a seductive human. Although I kind of wish Annie would say yes just so I could see that hilarious horror. I dunno, Danaë slept with Zeus as a shower of gold, and at some point Annie's ancestors were made of literal fire, so who are we to judge. I do think it's clear though that Annie doesn't find Loup very attractive, in any of his forms, so far. |
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Post by Eversist on Aug 8, 2018 17:29:55 GMT
I think it's worth pointing out Coyote's played this particular card before, though probably not to this degree. I wonder if Loup's making a play not just for Annie but Renard. If Annie get's trapped in the woods there's no chance Renard wouldn't come back to them after her. Looking back on that chapter, I see that Tom used to hand-letter dialogue in the ether. I wonder when/why he made the flip (has to be time-consuming to hand-letter, I'm sure). |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Aug 8, 2018 19:06:54 GMT
Loup reminds me more and more of a small child doing whatever he can to get what he wants. I agree that something doesn't add up with all this. he demands that Annie lives in the forest, but she can do whatever she wants, have her friends come with her and in return he won't destroy the Court. If his deal is so wonderful why does he have to threaten the Court to get her to agree? WHAT DOES HE WANT. AND what would Loup do if Annie says she wants her to bring her father? I don't think "Loup" would have an objection to Anthony coming to live in the forest... at first. He'd be a valuable lever with Antimony but after a while they wouldn't get along. "Loup" just wants the correct relationship established between god (himself) and mankind, Antimony in particular. He's going to be a loving god as long as he's properly respected. And what that means in practice will be a dealbreaker for Antimony. She sees herself as mostly human. And "Loup" will not abide anything that even suggests humans might be better than him. |
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Post by Corvo on Aug 8, 2018 21:12:58 GMT
It'll be fine, Annie! We just need to sew these buttons into your eyesEverything will be perfect, forever. |
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Post by todd on Aug 9, 2018 1:42:28 GMT
I think it fits that Loup's temptations (including the lust-themed ones at the bottom) aren't working out. He'd only moments before been threatening to attack the Court and destroy it if Annie didn't do as he said, and shortly before that, announced that he'd kill her if she wouldn't accept the fact that he loved her. That kind of behavior is guaranteed to undermine all his lures. The moral is to, if you want to tempt someone, act on your best behavior up to the point when you offer the blandishments, and only descend to threats and violent behavior when those fail.
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Post by speedwell on Aug 9, 2018 2:42:53 GMT
I think it fits that Loup's temptations (including the lust-themed ones at the bottom) aren't working out. He'd only moments before been threatening to attack the Court and destroy it if Annie didn't do as he said, and shortly before that, announced that he'd kill her if she wouldn't accept the fact that he loved her. That kind of behavior is guaranteed to undermine all his lures. The moral is to, if you want to tempt someone, act on your best behavior up to the point when you offer the blandishments, and only descend to threats and violent behavior when those fail. We've had it emphasised many, many times throughout the comic that the Forest denizens are nonhumans with nonhuman morality and motivations. In the specific case of Ysengrin, we are reminded he is a "red in tooth and claw" animal, and Coyote is even less human than that. I would be unsurprised to see Loup trying to appeal to Annie's Forest-being side, which is likely all he really understands. |
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Post by todd on Aug 9, 2018 3:09:06 GMT
We've had it emphasised many, many times throughout the comic that the Forest denizens are nonhumans with nonhuman morality and motivations. In the specific case of Ysengrin, we are reminded he is a "red in tooth and claw" animal, and Coyote is even less human than that. I would be unsurprised to see Loup trying to appeal to Annie's Forest-being side, which is likely all he really understands. Yes. But it still explains why his tactics aren't impressing Annie or winning her over. Annoying her, yes. But that's all. |
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Post by mturtle7 on Aug 9, 2018 5:34:26 GMT
I think Loup is projecting tons of confidence that he doesn't actually have. He's composed of two beings that both individually tended to "front" a lot, Coyote with just being brainlessly confident and misleadingly jovial all the time, and Ys who already projected power and confidence despite tons of self doubt. Together, all those things are just amplified. So I suspect what we're seeing is Loup trying to convince Annie of how perfectly he has his act together and how powerful and commanding he is, when in fact he is absolutely LOSING HIS MIND internally because these two personalities don't really gel at a base level. I'm reminded of a scene in Homestuck when two characters with wildly incompatible personalities get fused together into one being. It last all of a few seconds before they basically explode to death. Loup is lasting longer than that but I'm not sure if he's that much better off. When you put it like that, the whole Life and Times of Loup make much more sense to me. As soon as he's born, he attacks the Court out of sheer momentum, because that's all that Ysengrin really wanted to do when the "fusion" occured. Problem is, that goes completely contrary to the "Coyote" part of himself. What's the one thing which, in recent times, has actually brought Coyote and Ysengrin together? Annie, of course. Like he said, both of them loved her in their own ways. So now he's violently, chaotically, reaching out to her, explaining himself, and making her stay with him in a desperate attempt to stabilize his new personality. In fact, I think Annie has already picked up on this very quickly (best. medium. ever!), which is why she's just looked annoyed for the last few pages rather than scared or confused.
Wow. You know, looking back through the chapter so far, I can't help but be in awe of just how well Annie's facial expressions have been drawn. So carefully patient and neutral at first when walking through the Forest, sad and confused once she sees Loup, and then increasingly angry and disappointed now that he's being creepy and making threats.
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brokshi
Full Member
About as furious as my icon appears ecstatic.
Posts: 108
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Post by brokshi on Aug 9, 2018 8:56:26 GMT
No. Please. These are hallowed halls . We need not speak of such things .*pap*Okay but to be fair your icon is literally wearing the wayward vagabond's cloak. A few long-term readers here were directed to try Gunnerkrigg by Hussie as well. Never thought this forum had any problems with HS. On a less important note I *DO* like Loup's human bodies it came up with there. Dog knows it's human aesthetics. Also, everyone seems to be agreeing that Loup is putting up a lot of fronts or tricks here. Maybe it's aware of how it's coming off, especially as something that used to be part Coyote. We need more information on it regardless, but I'm not so sure this thing is bluffing. |
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Post by pyradonis on Aug 9, 2018 10:11:29 GMT
LOUP: "Would you like a handsome boy to keep you company? A woman? Something else?" ANNIE: (Something else? Hmm...) I'd gladly prefer a robot to keep me company instead of a shapeshifted Loup. Brrr... |
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Post by pyradonis on Aug 9, 2018 10:15:38 GMT
I also note that Annie's side strands are getting ever longer, and fiery. Objection! Two pages ago, they were longer than her body even. |
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Post by madjack on Aug 9, 2018 12:28:50 GMT
Wait... Maybe he's just trying to distract her while he slowly retracts the tree-bridge without her noticing.
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Post by csj on Aug 9, 2018 14:35:06 GMT
No. Please. These are hallowed halls . We need not speak of such things .*pap*Okay but to be fair your icon is literally wearing the wayward vagabond's cloak. A few long-term readers here were directed to try Gunnerkrigg by Hussie as well. Never thought this forum had any problems with HS. I think you needed to look at that post more carefully  There was a big flood of HS fans after that plug to the extent that the forum was a bit chaotic for a bit; the HS fandom is a lot more... boisterous and loud (and younger) than the GKC crowd overall. |
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Post by Runningflame on Aug 9, 2018 15:22:35 GMT
I think it's worth pointing out Coyote's played this particular card before, though probably not to this degree. I wonder if Loup's making a play not just for Annie but Renard. If Annie get's trapped in the woods there's no chance Renard wouldn't come back to them after her. Looking back on that chapter, I see that Tom used to hand-letter dialogue in the ether. I wonder when/why he made the flip (has to be time-consuming to hand-letter, I'm sure). Seems like it was only in that chapter. Even an earlier chapter has typed ether dialogue. |
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Post by darlos9d on Aug 9, 2018 16:09:43 GMT
Okay but to be fair your icon is literally wearing the wayward vagabond's cloak. A few long-term readers here were directed to try Gunnerkrigg by Hussie as well. Never thought this forum had any problems with HS. I think you needed to look at that post more carefully There was a big flood of HS fans after that plug to the extent that the forum was a bit chaotic for a bit; the HS fandom is a lot more... boisterous and loud (and younger) than the GKC crowd overall.Nobody hates Homestuck quite like Homestuck fans. I think Loup is projecting tons of confidence that he doesn't actually have. He's composed of two beings that both individually tended to "front" a lot, Coyote with just being brainlessly confident and misleadingly jovial all the time, and Ys who already projected power and confidence despite tons of self doubt. Together, all those things are just amplified. So I suspect what we're seeing is Loup trying to convince Annie of how perfectly he has his act together and how powerful and commanding he is, when in fact he is absolutely LOSING HIS MIND internally because these two personalities don't really gel at a base level. I'm reminded of a scene in Homestuck when two characters with wildly incompatible personalities get fused together into one being. It last all of a few seconds before they basically explode to death. Loup is lasting longer than that but I'm not sure if he's that much better off. When you put it like that, the whole Life and Times of Loup make much more sense to me. As soon as he's born, he attacks the Court out of sheer momentum, because that's all that Ysengrin really wanted to do when the "fusion" occured. Problem is, that goes completely contrary to the "Coyote" part of himself. What's the one thing which, in recent times, has actually brought Coyote and Ysengrin together? Annie, of course. Like he said, both of them loved her in their own ways. So now he's violently, chaotically, reaching out to her, explaining himself, and making her stay with him in a desperate attempt to stabilize his new personality. In fact, I think Annie has already picked up on this very quickly (best. medium. ever!), which is why she's just looked annoyed for the last few pages rather than scared or confused. Wow. You know, looking back through the chapter so far, I can't help but be in awe of just how well Annie's facial expressions have been drawn. So carefully patient and neutral at first when walking through the Forest, sad and confused once she sees Loup, and then increasingly angry and disappointed now that he's being creepy and making threats.
Nice, you took it even further than I did. Annie serving as Loup's desperate anchor point is... well, a good point, heh. His offers and demands swinging wildly all over the place, as you say, smacks of desperation. And yeah I love how Annie is mostly just annoyed. |
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Post by fia on Aug 9, 2018 18:47:51 GMT
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Post by Eversist on Aug 9, 2018 20:50:44 GMT
This page really does make me wonder: [...] But I still wonder what Annie does want out of life, what sort of a life she will build if this all gets resolved. While an interesting question, I will say that as a teen I really had no idea WTF I was going to do with my life. I'm not sure Annie had any other longer term goals beyond eventually graduating and probably going to college. Maybe being an ambassador for the forest to the Court could have been a long-term position (who knows how long her mother would have done it if she hadn't had Annie and left with Anthony) if Coyote/Ys hadn't just royally screwed the pooch. We don't really know what being a psychopomp entails, or what it would entail for her specifically. Is it a full-time job, or can you do it alongside living a mortal life? Does it make you an immortal/near immortal immediately, or is it gradual? Does it vary by being? Small convo Annie had with Ys about this after the Jeanne business (that you cited): www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1816www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1817 |
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Post by fia on Aug 9, 2018 23:01:50 GMT
But I still wonder what Annie does want out of life, what sort of a life she will build if this all gets resolved. While an interesting question, I will say that as a teen I really had no idea WTF I was going to do with my life. I'm not sure Annie had any other longer term goals beyond eventually graduating and probably going to college. I'm not saying she needs to know, but I suppose I was thinking that even if you don't know what exactly you want to be doing, you might have a good idea of what you don't want to be doing, and a rough sense of what you'd be inclined towards. Annie is a mystery to me in this sense. She doesn't strike me as a 'have a normal job' kinda girl, but she does strike me as someone who would rather make her own plans. But do her own preferred plans involve the Court or Forest? Would she rather be somewhere else? I don't have a good sense of it. She does seem to like her friends and Kat. She didn't seem to want to be working for the psychopomps, in spite of her skills, and did seem to enjoy being a Medium for the forest, although that's gone down the drain now. She is good at biology and history, and obviously good at languages, so I can see her enjoying travel and adventure, possibly field research, or writing, or working etherically. But I have a hard time seeing her forever at the Court. I just am curious: has she thought about other possibilities? We don't really know what being a psychopomp entails, or what it would entail for her specifically. Is it a full-time job, or can you do it alongside living a mortal life? Does it make you an immortal/near immortal immediately, or is it gradual? Does it vary by being? I have those questions too! I guess all this talking with Loup just brought out thoughts about possible alternatives. Being trapped in the forest certainly did not seem like something she would like, as much as she enjoyed being in the forest before. |
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Post by todd on Aug 10, 2018 0:07:16 GMT
But I have a hard time seeing her forever at the Court. I've wondered if the Court will still be around by the end of the comic. I doubt that Loup will destroy it (I suspect he won't last much longer, in fact), but I do have the feeling that it might shut down in some way in the concluding chapters - maybe abandoning its pursuits. (Since it seems to exist for a specific goal - though we don't know as yet what that goal is - I suspect that that goal will have to be either achieved or renounced in the final stage of the story.) |
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Post by Eversist on Aug 10, 2018 6:54:52 GMT
I'm not saying she needs to know, but I suppose I was thinking that even if you don't know what exactly you want to be doing, you might have a good idea of what you don't want to be doing, and a rough sense of what you'd be inclined towards. [...] We don't really know what being a psychopomp entails, or what it would entail for her specifically. Is it a full-time job, or can you do it alongside living a mortal life? Does it make you an immortal/near immortal immediately, or is it gradual? Does it vary by being? I have those questions too! I guess all this talking with Loup just brought out thoughts about possible alternatives. Being trapped in the forest certainly did not seem like something she would like, as much as she enjoyed being in the forest before. Sorry, I hope I didn't come off as dismissive or anything. You really do bring up an interesting topic. I wonder if she's given it further thought since her conversation with Ys, or if Tom has plans for that to come into the story at all. I find the Psychopomp stuff really intriguing, so I'm glad they're going to possibly be playing more of a role in the future in some capacity (even if it sucks for Annie). |
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Post by bicarbonat on Aug 10, 2018 8:52:29 GMT
Huh. I find it a bit interesting that our Techno Angel isn't envisioned in Loup's little wheeling spiel, especially because practically everyone knows Kat is Annie's best friend. And also a scary mishmash of technology & etheric alter-ego. Call me crazy, but I feel like Kat wouldn't fit in - or be welcome - in the forest like Parley and Andrew (both of whom were in the running to be the medium and have knowledge/experience about forest matters) would. First of all, she's never even been there; second of all, she's potentially a robot god whose machinations (hehe) would be in direct opposition to Loup's; and thirdly, even if she isn't a god, she's still way too machine-oriented for the comfort of a creature like Loup, I'd guess. Her interests and the interests of the forest probably don't mesh enough for Loup to outright welcome her or suggest she come live here. Then again, it's possible Loup doesn't know very much about Kat, and the only reason he didn't include her is because he knows Smitty and Parley better. Yeah, that's what I was implying. |
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Post by netherdan on Aug 10, 2018 12:36:26 GMT
Call me crazy, but I feel like Kat wouldn't fit in - or be welcome - in the forest like Parley and Andrew (both of whom were in the running to be the medium and have knowledge/experience about forest matters) would. First of all, she's never even been there; second of all, she's potentially a robot god whose machinations (hehe) would be in direct opposition to Loup's; and thirdly, even if she isn't a god, she's still way too machine-oriented for the comfort of a creature like Loup, I'd guess. Her interests and the interests of the forest probably don't mesh enough for Loup to outright welcome her or suggest she come live here. Then again, it's possible Loup doesn't know very much about Kat, and the only reason he didn't include her is because he knows Smitty and Parley better. Huh. I find it a bit interesting that our Techno Angel isn't envisioned in Loup's little wheeling spiel, especially because practically everyone knows Kat is Annie's best friend. And also a scary mishmash of technology & etheric alter-ego. That is probably exactly why: remember how Zimmy reacted to Kat's etheric being, maybe it scares even Loup?
I think she's an existential threat to all that's etheric. Not that she wants to harm any etheric being but she has an inate power to disable etheric fabrications like how she saw beyond the "smoke and mirrors" of the RotD. The ghosts there had an existence as they were human souls disguised by etheric illusions but Kat saw only their true form. Imagine a fight between Loup and Kat: everyone else is seeing a fierce deity attacking with big and menacing shapeshifting trees and almighty power and Kat is seeing a coywolf running around with a stick; She kicks the stick from the coywolf's mouth and everyone else sees her destroying a huge tree with laser eyes; Then she takes the stick and threatens the creature but the spectators observe robot tree structures sprouting and attacking Loup... you get the idea |
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Post by mturtle7 on Aug 11, 2018 6:10:53 GMT
Frig, that's a good question! I haven't thought about it, but it makes a LOT of sense. Come to think of it, I think it especially makes now that so many long-standing conflicts have been resolved, or are in the process of being resolved (where all the talk about the "endgame" of the comic comes from). I can think of several parts of the comic which really stand out as points where Annie was acting on her own initiative, rather than reacting or being manipulated: when she arranged for visits between Snuffle and That Rabbit Person, when she faced her fear of her father and asked for Renard back (no matter how hilarious the consequences were, the action itself was very dramatic and important for her, dammit), and of course when she made the plan to free Jeanne. And, though it's not exactly a proud moment for her like the others, Annie's freaked-out rant about her father definitely belongs on that list too.
Basically, I'm now seeing Annie's big, driving, motivations so far as having been all about Jeanne, her father, and being a medium. Jeanne's obviously gone, her relationship with her father is slowly but surely on the mend, but what about the last one? Things might be looking bad for official Forest-Court relations, but I think her role as a medium goes a lot deeper than that. Ever since the start of the comic, she's been "mediating" between humans and etheric beings in some way or other, and the most recent page makes it pretty clear she's only gotten better at dealing with this stuff over time. Even if she isn't able to continue as a Forest Medium in any official capacity, I can totally see her working to find other ways of resolving conflicts between humans and etheric beings around the Court and even (eventually) in the larger world. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Aug 11, 2018 16:21:03 GMT
This page really does make me wonder: What does Annie want out of her life? Always figured Antimony was going to have an epiphany about wanting to be with Kat around the end of the comic. |
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Post by pyradonis on Aug 17, 2018 20:05:07 GMT
Call me crazy, but I feel like Kat wouldn't fit in - or be welcome - in the forest like Parley and Andrew (both of whom were in the running to be the medium and have knowledge/experience about forest matters) would. First of all, she's never even been there; second of all, she's potentially a robot god whose machinations (hehe) would be in direct opposition to Loup's; and thirdly, even if she isn't a god, she's still way too machine-oriented for the comfort of a creature like Loup, I'd guess. Her interests and the interests of the forest probably don't mesh enough for Loup to outright welcome her or suggest she come live here. Then again, it's possible Loup doesn't know very much about Kat, and the only reason he didn't include her is because he knows Smitty and Parley better. That is probably exactly why: remember how Zimmy reacted to Kat's etheric being, maybe it scares even Loup?
I think she's an existential threat to all that's etheric. Not that she wants to harm any etheric being but she has an inate power to disable etheric fabrications like how she saw beyond the "smoke and mirrors" of the RotD. The ghosts there had an existence as they were human souls disguised by etheric illusions but Kat saw only their true form. Imagine a fight between Loup and Kat: everyone else is seeing a fierce deity attacking with big and menacing shapeshifting trees and almighty power and Kat is seeing a coywolf running around with a stick; She kicks the stick from the coywolf's mouth and everyone else sees her destroying a huge tree with laser eyes; Then she takes the stick and threatens the creature but the spectators observe robot tree structures sprouting and attacking Loup... you get the idea As cool as that fight scene sounds, I have to partially disagree. As you said, Kat can easily see behind every etheric illusion, so she saw the RotD as what it was, and was able to find her way through it. "Inside" the arrow, she saw "behind the scenes" and was able to free Jeanne's boyfriend etc. But if an etheric being is real she sees it too. When Kat met Ankou, she was genuinely scared. Which tells us that Ankou is real and does look like this, regardless whether he was originally created by belief or not. So I believe while Kat would easily see through illusions like the ones Coyote used to scare Annie, the powers of destruction Loup used would be as real to Kat as to anyone else. Still I wish they would meet. |
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Post by netherdan on Aug 19, 2018 19:53:24 GMT
I think she's an existential threat to all that's etheric. Not that she wants to harm any etheric being but she has an inate power to disable etheric fabrications like how she saw beyond the "smoke and mirrors" of the RotD. The ghosts there had an existence as they were human souls disguised by etheric illusions but Kat saw only their true form. Imagine a fight between Loup and Kat: everyone else is seeing a fierce deity attacking with big and menacing shapeshifting trees and almighty power and Kat is seeing a coywolf running around with a stick; She kicks the stick from the coywolf's mouth and everyone else sees her destroying a huge tree with laser eyes; Then she takes the stick and threatens the creature but the spectators observe robot tree structures sprouting and attacking Loup... you get the idea As cool as that fight scene sounds, I have to partially disagree. As you said, Kat can easily see behind every etheric illusion, so she saw the RotD as what it was, and was able to find her way through it. "Inside" the arrow, she saw "behind the scenes" and was able to free Jeanne's boyfriend etc. But if an etheric being is real she sees it too. When Kat met Ankou, she was genuinely scared. Which tells us that Ankou is real and does look like this, regardless whether he was originally created by belief or not. So I believe while Kat would easily see through illusions like the ones Coyote used to scare Annie, the powers of destruction Loup used would be as real to Kat as to anyone else. Still I wish they would meet. I'm totally aware of this flaw in my theory but I already had the fight scene in mind and could not keep it there. But for some reason I was under the impression that Kat would not be able to see pure etheric beings at all, thanks for pointing out the Ankou scene |
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