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Post by csj on Jul 24, 2018 11:50:11 GMT
TFW you're so gay that being united with your love triggers a gaypocalypse.
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Post by razgrizx on Jul 24, 2018 12:03:14 GMT
Ys referred to himself as "a useless wolf" on the previous page. Ysengrin can escape from being himself as Loup. Ysengrin also thought of himself as an useless wolf so that's not just Coyote talking if that's what you meant. So I think the fusion may be permanent |
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Post by liminal on Jul 24, 2018 14:19:59 GMT
The love on this page makes this even more poignant: |
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Post by todd on Jul 25, 2018 0:05:32 GMT
The one thing that would make this revelation about Coyote knowing what Ysengrin would do if he gave that wolf his strength - and the implications behind this - would be if Loup and his actions were having alarming consequences for the forest-folk as well as the Court. Of course, it probably has (people have brought up, for example, the woods being seemingly empty), but it hasn't been confirmed yet. If it has, that would make Coyote's actions all the more disquieting.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jul 25, 2018 4:58:20 GMT
Ys referred to himself as "a useless wolf" on the previous page. Ysengrin can escape from being himself as Loup. Ysengrin also thought of himself as an useless wolf so that's not just Coyote talking if that's what you meant. So I think the fusion may be permanent Despite what Loup's said I'm waiting to see if he really has eaten elements of Coyote's personality or if he's just drunk on Coyote's power and acting how he thinks a Coyote/Loup should. If elements of Coyote's actual persona are asserting themselves then I don't think Loup can possibly be stable as Loup; what's left of Ysengrin will likely become smaller until he remembers he was Coyote all along. Using what happened to Jack as a touchstone I suspect it might not be too late to undo what's happened as long as Ysengrin's body is still around somewhere... but Ysengrin will not be the same. ...Which begs the question, "What happened to Ysengrin's body?" Unlike Coyote, Ysengrin did exist. Was his body destroyed here when he transformed or here on this page with a rather curious first panel, or on the following page where his form seems to change into a tree? Or did it just enter the ether (which would probably be fatal for a normal human but potentially survivable for Ysengrin) from where it can be recalled? Complicating things is the notion that Ys may have disliked himself and loved Coyote enough that he might have mimicked Coyote's form more than strictly necessary. None of the "causes" for Coyote's being (to the extent he was) have changed. I think of Coyote as an enduring and unchanging being in the same way as I think of a large and ancient river in a deep-cut valley as a permanent fixture of the landscape. Coyote was a being that swam in the ether and bent it to his will. Though Ysengrin unquestionably existed Coyote's story is a lot bigger than Ysengrin's. Ysengrin with all of Coyote's power is like a very large river all channeled into a single spillway. The spillway may do well for a while but after a while there's only going to be the river left. |
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Post by razgrizx on Jul 26, 2018 11:25:45 GMT
Ysengrin also thought of himself as an useless wolf so that's not just Coyote talking if that's what you meant. So I think the fusion may be permanent Despite what Loup's said I'm waiting to see if he really has eaten elements of Coyote's personality or if he's just drunk on Coyote's power and acting how he thinks a Coyote/Loup should. If elements of Coyote's actual persona are asserting themselves then I don't think Loup can possibly be stable as Loup; what's left of Ysengrin will likely become smaller until he remembers he was Coyote all along. Using what happened to Jack as a touchstone I suspect it might not be too late to undo what's happened as long as Ysengrin's body is still around somewhere... but Ysengrin will not be the same. ...Which begs the question, "What happened to Ysengrin's body?" Unlike Coyote, Ysengrin did exist. Was his body destroyed here when he transformed or here on this page with a rather curious first panel, or on the following page where his form seems to change into a tree? Or did it just enter the ether (which would probably be fatal for a normal human but potentially survivable for Ysengrin) from where it can be recalled? Complicating things is the notion that Ys may have disliked himself and loved Coyote enough that he might have mimicked Coyote's form more than strictly necessary. None of the "causes" for Coyote's being (to the extent he was) have changed. I think of Coyote as an enduring and unchanging being in the same way as I think of a large and ancient river in a deep-cut valley as a permanent fixture of the landscape. Coyote was a being that swam in the ether and bent it to his will. Though Ysengrin unquestionably existed Coyote's story is a lot bigger than Ysengrin's. Ysengrin with all of Coyote's power is like a very large river all channeled into a single spillway. The spillway may do well for a while but after a while there's only going to be the river left. I see. It's an interesting interpretation but I'm reading as they minds fused and they're now a new being but I think you might be underestimating Ysengrin a little bit, I don't think he will be as easily dominated in this fusion as you're saying. I think he's capable of not being dominated by Coyote's personality if something riles him up or if he gets a boost of confidence (like the way he was acting when he attacked the Court). Right now Loup is mostly Coyote but what will happen if someone says something that would make Ysengrin snap? |
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Post by warrl on Jul 26, 2018 22:54:46 GMT
...Which begs the question, "What happened to Ysengrin's body?" Unlike Coyote, Ysengrin did exist. Coyote emerged from North American Indian myths and legends. Ysengrin (and Renard) emerged from Belgian French myths and legends. I don't see how either of them exists any more or less than the other. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jul 27, 2018 6:20:47 GMT
...Which begs the question, "What happened to Ysengrin's body?" Unlike Coyote, Ysengrin did exist. Coyote emerged from North American Indian myths and legends. Ysengrin (and Renard) emerged from Belgian French myths and legends. I don't see how either of them exists any more or less than the other. In the sense that they are both fictional characters in a comic I agree that neither is more real than the other. In the fictional Gunnerverse Ysengrin is a wolf. He's an intelligent, talking wolf; he's arguably powerful and maybe he's immortal in the sense of being immune to old age but he's very much a specific wolf and his body can change for the worse based on how he uses it (or doesn't). Coyote is only nominally a coyote. In native American myths and legends he's a trickster, The Fool, a [small "g"] god and even sometimes a culture hero, and as those things he is a facet of something universal or general. In a few stories he is one of the "first people" but what that means is unclear aside from him being intelligent and [probably] existing before current humans. Sometimes he acts very much like a coyote but often his body does things that a coyote can't and in some stories his form's just irrelevant, completely unspecified. I suppose you could say that this Coyote character emerged from legends/myths based on the idea of a/an coyote/s and has received some traits from that but that's the closest he gets to existing as this character apparently used the term (and it should be remembered that he later qualified that initial claim by saying that he barely exists) and any attempt to point to a specific coyote or even a particular Coyote story as his origin is like trying to determine which snowflake started an avalanche. |
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Post by pyradonis on Jul 30, 2018 16:45:43 GMT
But Coyote claims all mythical beings are products of the thoughts of humans, not just the deities. Ysengrin even says that according to Coyote, even Annie's ancestors were only made of stories.
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Post by fia on Aug 1, 2018 16:34:09 GMT
But Coyote claims all mythical beings are products of the thoughts of humans, not just the deities. Ysengrin even says that according to Coyote, even Annie's ancestors were only made of stories. I don't think we should worry about this overmuch. As the old saying goes, stories often 'take up lives of their own'. However Coyote and Ysengrin were born, even if the ground for their existence (the reason in virtue of which they exist) is different from material people, they certainly have powers and actionable thoughts. Taking Coyote's "I don't exist" theory too seriously will just end up confusing everybody. My view is that he exists, albeit the grounds of his existence are really weird (and for a human, rather nontraditional). Coyote might just be a fictionalist about his own existence. But in the Gunnerverse 'only fictionally true' has a whole different meaning than in our universe, where there (as far as I know) aren't literal powerful beings running around as a direct result of human storytelling. |
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Post by jda on Aug 2, 2018 1:24:56 GMT
But Coyote claims all mythical beings are products of the thoughts of humans, not just the deities. Ysengrin even says that according to Coyote, even Annie's ancestors were only made of stories. I don't think we should worry about this overmuch. As the old saying goes, stories often 'take up lives of their own'. However Coyote and Ysengrin were born, even if the ground for their existence (the reason in virtue of which they exist) is different from material people, they certainly have powers and actionable thoughts. Taking Coyote's "I don't exist" theory too seriously will just end up confusing everybody. My view is that he exists, albeit the grounds of his existence are really weird (and for a human, rather nontraditional). Coyote might just be a fictionalist about his own existence. But in the Gunnerverse 'only fictionally true' has a whole different meaning than in our universe, where there (as far as I know) aren't literal powerful beings running around as a direct result of human storytelling. Well, that reminds me of InkHeart |
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Post by todd on Aug 2, 2018 1:45:40 GMT
Taking Coyote's "I don't exist" theory too seriously will just end up confusing everybody. My view is that he exists, albeit the grounds of his existence are really weird (and for a human, rather nontraditional). Yes, as I've mentioned elsewhere, the problem with Coyote not existing is that he (and other etheric beings) have physically affected their surroundings - making chasms, knocking down buildings, etc. (Probably the best way of having them be "non-existent" in the story would have been to always carefully avoid having Coyote and any other etheric being doing anything that would alter the regular world - all they can do is to speak to people, and even then, only tell them things that the person could have figured out for himself or herself - or at most, influence the human characters to make those changes in a "devil on your shoulder" manner.) |
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Post by avurai on Aug 2, 2018 6:23:02 GMT
Taking Coyote's "I don't exist" theory too seriously will just end up confusing everybody. My view is that he exists, albeit the grounds of his existence are really weird (and for a human, rather nontraditional). Yes, as I've mentioned elsewhere, the problem with Coyote not existing is that he (and other etheric beings) have physically affected their surroundings - making chasms, knocking down buildings, etc. (Probably the best way of having them be "non-existent" in the story would have been to always carefully avoid having Coyote and any other etheric being doing anything that would alter the regular world - all they can do is to speak to people, and even then, only tell them things that the person could have figured out for himself or herself - or at most, influence the human characters to make those changes in a "devil on your shoulder" manner.) In fairness, Coyote never implied he didn’t actually exist in the physical realm, merely that his existence as a powerful force is defined by belief from humanity. “I do not exist” is a Coyote way of saying “I only exist because your kind wills it”. Not “this is all an intangible illusion”. |
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Post by todd on Aug 2, 2018 23:41:51 GMT
In fairness, Coyote never implied he didn’t actually exist in the physical realm, merely that his existence as a powerful force is defined by belief from humanity. “I do not exist” is a Coyote way of saying “I only exist because your kind wills it”. Not “this is all an intangible illusion”. Good point. Of course, it's also possible that the Court has become ether-tinged enough that it's in the same state of existence as etheric beings like Coyote, and that Coyote and Ysengrin (or Loup) wouldn't be able to do to a regular city what they did to Gunnerkrigg. |
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