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Post by darlos9d on Jun 12, 2018 18:11:27 GMT
While everyone is debating the redeemability of Tony and commenting on what a big "death flag" this interaction is in a piece of fiction, I read into the death flag one step further: you don't usually see stuff like this until pretty close to the end of the story. Which means we're really approaching the finale here guys. I mean, people were probably already figuring that, but this really seals the deal.
... alright I need to comment on the Tony situation. Some people here are calling for Annie to just tell Tony to go burn. Which I understand. I understand because it's exactly what I did with my emotionally manipulative and abusive mother a couple years ago. I cut off all communication with her, and it was ultimately probably a healthy move on my part. But do you want to know the exact reason I cut her off? It's not because of a long history of abuse. No, that I could forgive since I know it all came from a place of SOME kind of love and concern on her part. It's more because she refused to acknowledge it for what it was, refused to admit wrong doing, refused to apologize, and refused to try and be a better person. That's why I cut her off. If she'd do those things, we could heal and maybe have a chance at starting up a healthy familial relationship. But she doesn't, so that only leaves me with the options of sticking with it even though it'll never get better, or cut it off entirely. I chose the latter.
Up until now, Tony was pretty much like my mom. But with this page, he's displaying a willingness to self-reflect and change that makes me utterly jealous of Annie's position. Where some are seeing doom and gloom and the continuation of a bad relationship, I'm seeing hope, simply because he's being considerate of her ability to choose for herself. Something my mother has never truly done for me, and if she did, it would be a sign that things were changing. So I feel Annie and her goofy sparkle smile 100% here. Because even when you cut off somebody like I have, you never REALLY sever them entirely. I think about my mom a lot. I constantly wish things could be better. So I can't expect Annie to just cut it off with her father because cutting it off with a parent isn't something you do because you want to. You do it because you HAVE to. And right now, it doesn't look like she has to. And I would hope nobody else would expect otherwise either.
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Post by faiiry on Jun 12, 2018 20:26:40 GMT
While everyone is debating the redeemability of Tony and commenting on what a big "death flag" this interaction is in a piece of fiction, I read into the death flag one step further: you don't usually see stuff like this until pretty close to the end of the story. Which means we're really approaching the finale here guys. I mean, people were probably already figuring that, but this really seals the deal. I agree with you that the story's direction lately definitely feels as though we're heading for a final battle. But practically, we just can't be. There's way too much stuff that needs to be resolved. I could probably think of a dozen major plot threads that need to be addressed, some of them so important that they almost demand their own chapters. The full story of Tony and Surma's relationship - there are some gaps to be filled (like, what's up with the slugs, for example?). Kat being a robot god. What's the deal with Jones (if that ever gets resolved; I would be okay if it didn't)? What's the deal with the rainbow threads around Andrew? What, if anything, will happen with *Snuffle* and her friend. What's up with the giant clone room run by the lady from Cardiff? What's the deal with William and Janet, and why does Janet's dad not want them together? For that matter, what's the deal with Llanwellyn in general? Why did Coyote say "when" you have a child, instead of "if" in Fire Spike? What will happen to Zimmy and Gamma and Jack and all the other side characters? And probably more stuff I'm not thinking of? I just feel like we're closer to the "late middle" than the end. Or else, a lot of stuff will be left hanging. |
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Post by Aurelia Verity on Jun 12, 2018 21:25:02 GMT
While everyone is debating the redeemability of Tony and commenting on what a big "death flag" this interaction is in a piece of fiction, I read into the death flag one step further: you don't usually see stuff like this until pretty close to the end of the story. Which means we're really approaching the finale here guys. I mean, people were probably already figuring that, but this really seals the deal. I agree with you that the story's direction lately definitely feels as though we're heading for a final battle. But practically, we just can't be. There's way too much stuff that needs to be resolved. I could probably think of a dozen major plot threads that need to be addressed, some of them so important that they almost demand their own chapters. The full story of Tony and Surma's relationship - there are some gaps to be filled (like, what's up with the slugs, for example?). Kat being a robot god. What's the deal with Jones (if that ever gets resolved; I would be okay if it didn't)? What's the deal with the rainbow threads around Andrew? What, if anything, will happen with *Snuffle* and her friend. What's up with the giant clone room run by the lady from Cardiff? What's the deal with William and Janet, and why does Janet's dad not want them together? For that matter, what's the deal with Llanwellyn in general? Why did Coyote say "when" you have a child, instead of "if" in Fire Spike? What will happen to Zimmy and Gamma and Jack and all the other side characters? And probably more stuff I'm not thinking of? I just feel like we're closer to the "late middle" than the end. Or else, a lot of stuff will be left hanging. There is an approaching Finality to the recent comics but i think it more hints to the fact that either this chapter or the next will then be followed by Tom's usual summer break and then a time skip, much like between "Fire Spire" and "From the forest she came" and other such cases. I think it's time for a new treatise but there is too much unresolved here to approach the true end. the seeds (both in story and narrative) that have been planted in the start of the book i.e. robot's arm, forest decontamination, Jeanne's identity and function, etc. have only sprouted so to speak. we know their function and back story but there is still much more to go. Like, we worked out who Jeanne is and freed her but now we need to solve the forest issue that resulted from the removal of the barrier and Kat still has that darn arrow and that's a Chekov's Gun if i ever saw one. Knowing Tom it will fire in like, 20 chapters from now. There's other stuff like that, for example the the Kat/Robot/Shadow plotline. And the overall question of the comic: "what is Gunnerkrigg court, how it came to be and what is it's purpose" has only been hinted at. I think there is still some ways to go. Hopefully. Also, what are TicTocs? introduced at the start, reinforced midway through, fell off the map. drives me crazy, i want to know what they are! |
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Post by Runningflame on Jun 12, 2018 21:40:36 GMT
It's finally happening, folks! The Anarch is a prophet! MEANWHILE  |
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Post by todd on Jun 13, 2018 0:12:17 GMT
Apart from the young male Anwyn in "Annie in the Forest", Annie's shown little interest in romance (I'd have thought her aromantic if it hadn't been for that moment). And also this moment. The link leads to the top of the same page. |
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Post by todd on Jun 13, 2018 0:25:42 GMT
One thing that made me doubtful at first about the end being that close is that Annie still has a few more years of school to go (if Sixth Form is two years, as I've heard, that would have meant three years - but since she was set back a year, that would mean four). But Tom doesn't necessarily have to have her go through the full time at school; for example, the Court could come to an end before she completes Sixth Form (whether destroyed by the forest-folk or abandoning its mysterious goals).
There might be one advantage to the story ending before then. I've often felt that Annie and Kat's tone (children sneaking around the Court, trying to figure out what was going on) worked best when they were around twelve, and while Tom hasn't aged them too much (they still feel very young and having to maneuver around the grown-ups), being "sixth form" age might not fit them as well. (Alan Bradley, the author of the Flavia de Luce series, said he didn't think his protagonist - who was eleven when the series began, and is still only twelve by the end of the ninth book - would work as well as an older teen.)
As for whether this page means that Antony will die soon - Tom might not have had that convention in mind when he wrote it, or might even be deliberately misleading us into expecting something dreadful that never comes. (Since there's no mention of Antony accompanying Annie on the diplomatic mission, if he does die soon, it obviously can't be from that. Maybe if some of the forest-folk launch an attack on the Court while Annie's meeting with Ysengrin - though for a couple of reasons, that doesn't strike me as too likely.)
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Post by faiiry on Jun 13, 2018 0:55:14 GMT
It's finally happening, folks! The Anarch is a prophet! MEANWHILE If only this had happened, I would be worshipping at the altar of Tony right now. It's what she deserves. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jun 13, 2018 1:28:56 GMT
Anthony crawling up towards mediocrity as a father is indeed monumental but I don't think that it is either a monument to the imminent end of the comic or his headstone. We've seen him do positive(ish) things before. I think it's more like a billboard on the side of the highway for something one or two exits before the end of the line.
If I had to guess I'd say we're in the early part of the final third of the comic. The action slacking off will be the sign of the end times. Sure, a number of plots will not be resolved but I figure there should be about eight chapters three chapters of wrap-up once the main show Antimony/Kat situation concludes. [edit]That is to say, once the Ys/Coyote Court/Wood thing reaches a conclusion there will have to be at least three chapters to resolve how Antimony and Kat's relationship will end up. I'd like to say that there will be another five chapters to take care of several more loose ends but a lot of things like the seed bismuth and Zeta/Gamma will probably just go unresolved or under-resolved.[/edit]
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Post by Runningflame on Jun 13, 2018 4:59:26 GMT
The link leads to the top of the same page. Whoops, fixed. Thanks. |
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Post by netherdan on Jun 13, 2018 12:21:38 GMT
One thing that made me doubtful at first about the end being that close is that Annie still has a few more years of school to go (if Sixth Form is two years, as I've heard, that would have meant three years - but since she was set back a year, that would mean four). But Tom doesn't necessarily have to have her go through the full time at school; for example, the Court could come to an end before she completes Sixth Form (whether destroyed by the forest-folk or abandoning its mysterious goals). There might be one advantage to the story ending before then. I've often felt that Annie and Kat's tone (children sneaking around the Court, trying to figure out what was going on) worked best when they were around twelve, and while Tom hasn't aged them too much (they still feel very young and having to maneuver around the grown-ups), being "sixth form" age might not fit them as well. (Alan Bradley, the author of the Flavia de Luce series, said he didn't think his protagonist - who was eleven when the series began, and is still only twelve by the end of the ninth book - would work as well as an older teen.) As for whether this page means that Antony will die soon - Tom might not have had that convention in mind when he wrote it, or might even be deliberately misleading us into expecting something dreadful that never comes. (Since there's no mention of Antony accompanying Annie on the diplomatic mission, if he does die soon, it obviously can't be from that. Maybe if some of the forest-folk launch an attack on the Court while Annie's meeting with Ysengrin - though for a couple of reasons, that doesn't strike me as too likely.) You know, Tom could still pull the John Allison card and do something like the Bobbins > Scary Go Round (> Mordawwa) > Bad Machinery > Giant Days, i.e. grow up the characters, do a hiatus, and start another story in the same universe with new children and include some of our beloved characters to do the adulting part of the comic by being parents, teachers, or just singles/couples that pop up eventually for the nostalgia The end of GC certainly won't be the end of Tom Siddell, and whether he might keep up with this story or start a new project is yet to be seen... But I'm hoping |
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Post by todd on Jun 13, 2018 12:36:35 GMT
You know, Tom could still pull the John Allison card and do something like the Bobbins > Scary Go Round (> Mordawwa) > Bad Machinery > Giant Days, i.e. grow up the characters, do a hiatus, and start another story in the same universe with new children and include some of our beloved characters to do the adulting part of the comic by being parents, teachers, or just singles/couples that pop up eventually for the nostalgia A lot of that will depend, I think, on whether the Court still exists by the end of the comic; as I mentioned above, I think it possible that we'll see it disband by the time it's over (maybe concluding at last that the whole project was a bad idea and scrapping it) - ruling out a "Gunnerkrigg Court: Next Generation"-type story. |
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Post by netherdan on Jun 13, 2018 12:46:36 GMT
You know, Tom could still pull the John Allison card and do something like the Bobbins > Scary Go Round (> Mordawwa) > Bad Machinery > Giant Days, i.e. grow up the characters, do a hiatus, and start another story in the same universe with new children and include some of our beloved characters to do the adulting part of the comic by being parents, teachers, or just singles/couples that pop up eventually for the nostalgia A lot of that will depend, I think, on whether the Court still exists by the end of the comic; as I mentioned above, I think it possible that we'll see it disband by the time it's over (maybe concluding at last that the whole project was a bad idea and scrapping it) - ruling out a "Gunnerkrigg Court: Next Generation"-type story. I'm imagining the Court being just the beginning (in a Digimon Adventure's File Island fashion) and Katerina becoming a Technogoddess Evil Villain™ in a "you either die a hero..." plot, but it's just me exaggerating |
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Post by The Anarch on Jun 13, 2018 13:25:42 GMT
It's finally happening, folks! The Anarch is a prophet! I'm not saying that Mr. Siddel changed his story to fit in with the Meanwhile universe, but that's obviously what happened. |
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Post by warrl on Jun 14, 2018 0:05:52 GMT
Very few children in the UK attend boarding school; it's extremely expensive and can usually only be afforded by very well-off people. I checked Wikipedia, and the actual figure is 1% of all children; it's more than in the US, where it's about 0.5% (again according to Wikipedia). I think it's a common trope because 'kids away from their parents' is a good trope - they are more likely to get up to shenanigans! In the UK it isn't a trope, it's a genre. |
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Post by gillyc on Jun 15, 2018 7:36:55 GMT
Very few children in the UK attend boarding school; it's extremely expensive and can usually only be afforded by very well-off people. I checked Wikipedia, and the actual figure is 1% of all children; it's more than in the US, where it's about 0.5% (again according to Wikipedia). I think it's a common trope because 'kids away from their parents' is a good trope - they are more likely to get up to shenanigans! In the UK it isn't a trope, it's a genre. oops, you're quite right, and I should know, I read enough of them when I was a kid! |
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Post by tc on Jun 28, 2018 9:49:30 GMT
No. Because they're guaranteed to die when their child is very young and leave their daughters without a mother. In this situation, procreation is purely selfish. That's a valid point of view if your moral perspective is derived from the norms of *our* universe. But I think it's worth remembering that we're talking about a fictional universe that centres around a large settlement created by a secret society of scientists and ether-workers where our protagonist attends a school that's somewhat akin to Hogwarts as reimagined by William Gibson. In this universe, Fae entities can exist in the ether indefinitely - but the Court has found a way to give them physical bodies and become mortal. There's a steady stream of forest entities that want to undergo this process (which will presumably eventually result in their death). In this universe it's considered normal. At the start of "Get Lost" it is implied that both Tony and Surma have been wards of the Court at least since they were the same age as Annie at the start of the comic (and possibly significantly younger in Tony's case), and again, in this universe it seems to be considered as normal as being brought up in a nuclear family (as in Kat's case). Put another way, in our world the notion of a child being brought up outside of a nuclear family environment is often perceived as aberrant and tragic - but in their world it seems to be a common and accepted aspect of their society. Then there's the fact that the act of bringing a child into the world is, ideally at least, as much an expression of the love shared by the parents as it is a biological imperative. Surma would tell you they decided to have a baby because that's how much they loved each other, and she'd expect you to accept that answer. She'd also probably chuckle knowingly at how badly you're misjudging the Tony she knows. If I didn't know any better, I'd suspect you have a lovingly-tended Eglamore shrine in your home somewhere, because that's his schtick all the way back to "Why did my childhood sweetheart dump me for a man with no social graces or empathy?". It's been eating at him for almost two decades, and all because his ego can't accept the fact that he became so focused on becoming Surma's knight in shining armour that he neglected to ask Surma whether a knight in shining armour was what she wanted. |
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Post by madjack on Jun 28, 2018 10:12:24 GMT
If I didn't know any better, I'd suspect you have a lovingly-tended Eglamore shrine in your home somewhere, because that's his schtick all the way back to "Why did my childhood sweetheart dump me for a man with no social graces or empathy?". It's been eating at him for almost two decades, and all because his ego can't accept the fact that he became so focused on becoming Surma's knight in shining armour that he neglected to ask Surma whether a knight in shining armour was what she wanted. Gonna pipe up about this again from the debate we had yesterday. I remembered this page in Get Lost, and it might indicate that Eggers' skewed self-image was compounded by Surma herself thinking that was what she wanted.... Until she was shown something different while alone with Tony. |
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Post by tc on Jun 29, 2018 23:52:12 GMT
I remembered this page in Get Lost, and it might indicate that Eggers' skewed self-image was compounded by Surma herself thinking that was what she wanted.... Until she was shown something different while alone with Tony. That's a fair interpretation; that said, at the beginning of the trip she had never considered anyone other than Jimmy (and certainly not Tony!) in a romantic sense. I think there was something subtly shifting in Surma's mind for a while though. If we go back to the end of "S1", we see this seemingly casual (and sweet) BFF exchange between Anya and Surma. It's clearly winter, and we know it's before the events of "Get Lost" because Surma and Jimmy are still a couple at this point. So if we read between the lines, Surma had been starting to realise that Jimmy's dedication to his future as Knight Protector was going to keep them apart for extended periods indefinitely roughly 6 months before the events of "Get Lost". We don't know if Surma ever mentioned this (or the fact it was starting to bother her) to Jimmy in the intervening time, however I'm willing to go out on a limb - on the basis that 18-year-old Surma does not seem to be the passive (let alone submissive!) type who would be willing to pretend things were fine when she felt otherwise - and say I'm fairly sure that Jimmy never asked her if she was OK with the situation during that time either. Of course we're talking about teenagers here, and like every teenage relationship I've ever known of, their lack of experience plus a tendency to be impetuous and reactive means that neither Surma nor Jimmy handled the situation particularly well. But what I find more concerning about Jimmy is that he's never been able to move on emotionally; almost 20 years later, this is still eating at him. But I'm getting sidetracked...  If I had to summarise my interpretation of things around the page you linked, I'd theorise that while Surma has started to question aspects of her relationship with Jimmy for a while (at least roughly 6 months), he remains the only guy she has been significantly attracted to at that point. That page represents Surma's first night in the jungle (to say nothing of her first night so far from home), and in the last few hours has discovered that she misheard the purpose of the expedition and that they will be studying insects (which freak her out and scare her). On that basis, it's not surprising that her subconscious looks for things that represent both "home" and "protection" - and comes up with Jimmy. Having said all this, I think you're absolutely right that Surma had yet to reach the point of considering anyone other than Jimmy in a relationship sense. On the other hand, I also think that has little or no bearing on the questions she'd been starting to ask herself about their relationship over the last several months. I've re-read "Get Lost" a few times now, and each time have become more convinced that the crux of that chapter is Surma's own journey of self-discovery; the blossoming of love between Surma and Tony is actually of lesser importance. How so? At the start of the chapter, Surma volunteers to take Donny's place on the expedition in part because she'd just be kicking her heels on her own at the Court otherwise - but at the same time I think she can see that all of her friends (and her boyfriend) are starting off on the paths that will take them into the future, yet she has yet to find her own path towards her own future and isn't sure of what contributions she can make. Even before her attraction to Tony starts to make itself known, among other things Surma has faced down her childhood fear of insects and, in helping Tony with the experiments has discovered that she's smarter and has more practical skills than she'd given herself credit for in the past. For the first time, Surma has become aware of the potential she has in her own right - and on their return, when Jimmy ignores what she says and chooses to see it all as Tony's doing, that becomes the last straw. |
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If I had to summarise my interpretation of things around the page you linked, I'd theorise that while Surma has started to question aspects of her relationship with Jimmy for a while (at least roughly 6 months), he remains the only guy she has been significantly attracted to at that point. That page represents Surma's first night in the jungle (to say nothing of her first night so far from home), and in the last few hours has discovered that she misheard the purpose of the expedition and that they will be studying insects (which freak her out and scare her). On that basis, it's not surprising that her subconscious looks for things that represent both "home" and "protection" - and comes up with Jimmy.