madragoran
Full Member
"If he trully does hurt you, I will rend the flesh from his bones on your word"
Posts: 232
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Post by madragoran on May 16, 2018 7:05:59 GMT
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Post by imaginaryfriend on May 16, 2018 7:08:45 GMT
Only somewhat. Mostly it's Coyote's and Ys' fault. Mainly Coyote.
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Post by madjack on May 16, 2018 7:09:13 GMT
That looks like a drone of some kind she's holding in panel 5. Not like there's much other way to get a message across the ravine... or back across.
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Post by arf on May 16, 2018 7:11:21 GMT
No it's not, and don't let that ex-fairy's opinion colour your view either.
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fjodorii
Full Member
It just does, ok?
Posts: 134
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Post by fjodorii on May 16, 2018 7:14:46 GMT
Well, it IS her fault because she shouldn't have been messing with robot to send shadow back, and she shouldn't have released Jeanne. Then none of all this would have happened but also then it wouldn't have been much of a comic.
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Post by csj on May 16, 2018 7:20:03 GMT
It's an older cookie, but it checks out. Note that he's blaming Annie. No, mind-screwing has NOTHING to do with this whatsoever. It's only Annie. Never mind what happens when Coyote lets him off the leash. If something goes wrong? Bad Annie for not controlling Ys. Annie is brought closer and closer to the Forest. How can she leave and abandon him when the possible destruction could be great? And of course, none of the blame will be set on Coyote... |
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Post by madjack on May 16, 2018 7:26:25 GMT
I wouldn't be surprised if Ys uses the symbol to lure Annie over to the Forest then renews the attack on the Court.
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Post by arf on May 16, 2018 7:28:21 GMT
Well, it IS her fault because she shouldn't have been messing with robot to send shadow back, and she shouldn't have released Jeanne. Then none of all this would have happened but also then it wouldn't have been much of a comic. Sir Young & co. are, of course, entirely blameless. |
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Post by arf on May 16, 2018 7:30:12 GMT
It's not surprising that the Court is leaving the Forest Medium out of official matters. Diplomacy is currently suspended.
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Post by TBeholder on May 16, 2018 8:11:41 GMT
Being so bamboozled by Coyote's circus tricks, really?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2018 8:24:28 GMT
If Coyote could have crossed the river before the dissolution of Jeanne, that points to him wanting Ysengrin specifically to attack the Court, and possibly even for Annie specifically to etherize the Guardian... In any case, she's casting the blame all on herself just as her father would -- to reinforce that, the same page showcases her fear of not belonging to the (courtly) order of things (getting left out of formal proceedings), and the Forest sign possibly calling her home, or possibly making a mockery of her; and the last page shows Kat, the agile genius, immediately able and seizing the chance to help others around her, as though it was still Katurday. I'm reminded of Renard's comment during the visit to the Tomb; "how could such a woman ever show love...?" -- the beetle-browed collector of bugs who dreams of being a famous spy isn't that different from the builder of robots who dreams of being a king. And their ultimate regret was their idleness in self-isolation, or will be, respectively. "A problem of the Solus Rex type." (It is unknown whether the blade will giggle.) Once again, shame and righteousness are shown in both their best light (sense of responsibility) and their worst (paralysis of exile, comfort of simple staunch answers), whose mingling is tragic -- she could talk to nobody better than her own father here, I think, and vice versa; but of course, they aren't able to. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on May 16, 2018 8:40:54 GMT
Well, it IS her fault because she shouldn't have been messing with robot to send shadow back, and she shouldn't have released Jeanne. Then none of all this would have happened but also then it wouldn't have been much of a comic. Sir Young & co. are, of course, entirely blameless. List of people with shares of blame in order of magnitude: Ysengrin (for probably having a big part in the squabble that required the Court and Wood to be divided) Diego Coyote for spinning Ys up and then repeatedly giving him powers Ysengrin again for actually attacking a bunch of humans who are long dead, including Steadman Jan's dad and the other grand poobahs for doing very little to prevent this Robot for not coming back to the Court after taking Shadow home to the wood Antimony for not telling Robot to come back Surma for tricking Renard Did I forget anyone? |
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fjodorii
Full Member
It just does, ok?
Posts: 134
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Post by fjodorii on May 16, 2018 8:44:44 GMT
Well, it IS her fault because she shouldn't have been messing with robot to send shadow back, and she shouldn't have released Jeanne. Then none of all this would have happened but also then it wouldn't have been much of a comic. Sir Young & co. are, of course, entirely blameless. Yes, in fact they are. In their time, they were creating a shield for the Court using morally despicable, yet very effective means. They can be blamed for what was done to Jeanne and Green guy, but not for the current mess. |
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fjodorii
Full Member
It just does, ok?
Posts: 134
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Post by fjodorii on May 16, 2018 8:49:47 GMT
Sir Young & co. are, of course, entirely blameless. List of people with shares of blame in order of magnitude: Ysengrin (for probably having a big part in the squabble that required the Court and Wood to be divided) Diego Coyote for spinning Ys up and then repeatedly giving him powers Ysengrin again for actually attacking a bunch of humans who are long dead, including Steadman Jan's dad and the other grand poobahs for doing very little to prevent this Robot for not coming back to the Court after taking Shadow home to the wood Antimony for not telling Robot to come back Surma for tricking Renard Did I forget anyone? Renard for killing that young man, creating more tension and distrust between Court and Forest? |
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Post by faiiry on May 16, 2018 9:59:51 GMT
Huh? I'm failing to see how this is all her fault whatsoever.
I mean yeah, she removed Jeanne, but it takes two to tango. Or in this case, like, 7.
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Post by philman on May 16, 2018 10:21:26 GMT
It's not all her fault, but it is not difficult to see how she could think it was. Especially given how much she takes after her father, and we all saw where the results of his blaming himself took him. Sir Young & co. are, of course, entirely blameless. List of people with shares of blame in order of magnitude: Ysengrin (for probably having a big part in the squabble that required the Court and Wood to be divided) Diego Coyote for spinning Ys up and then repeatedly giving him powers Ysengrin again for actually attacking a bunch of humans who are long dead, including Steadman Jan's dad and the other grand poobahs for doing very little to prevent this Robot for not coming back to the Court after taking Shadow home to the wood Antimony for not telling Robot to come back Surma for tricking Renard Did I forget anyone? Hmm. Ysengrin: yes, for sure. Especially if his aggressiveness towards humans was one of the original reasons for the division in the first place. But it is also difficult not to see him as a tragic figure driven to insanity as well. Diego: Perhaps, but only in his bitterness at using the woman who turned him down as the victim to his barrier Coyote: I would put Coyote number 1 to be honest. He has manipulated this entire situation from the beginning a bunch of humans who are long dead, including Steadman: See Diego. For all we know, had they not placed Jeanne down there at all, then a devastating forest attack on the court could have happened much earlier. Jan's dad and the other grand poobahs for doing very little to prevent this: Remember, they knew nothing about Jeanne (as far as we know), all knowledge of her and the arrow were supposedly struck from the records. And at least their other defence (grand robot purple shield) worked well. Robot for not coming back to the Court after taking Shadow home to the wood: Robots follow instructions to the letter, sometimes too well. Antimony for not telling Robot to come back: Perhaps, but she was, what, 11 at the time? I think Annie does need to be placed a little higher up, but for trusting the forest too much and so removing the court's main defence out of compassion for the victim of the cruelty that placed it there without coming up with a suitable defence replacement. But to put the blame entirely on her? No. She just trusted Coyote too much, even after seeing some of the ways he was manipulating Ysengrin into anger. Surma for tricking Renard: Unless we find out that Coyote has been motivated far more than we thought to recapture Renard, then I don't think this factors as much into it as we may think. |
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fjodorii
Full Member
It just does, ok?
Posts: 134
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Post by fjodorii on May 16, 2018 10:55:08 GMT
One thing i don't get about the first panel: The Forest symbol is meant to request a meeting between the Forest and the Court, correct? As Annie is representing the Forest, I would assume the symbol is calling on the Court, and not Annie (she'd be in the meeting of course, but it is clear the court's mind is not focused on a meeting right now).
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Post by csj on May 16, 2018 11:44:55 GMT
A list of terribleness without boxbot at the top is a list incomplete. |
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Post by faiiry on May 16, 2018 11:54:02 GMT
This is NOT all Annie's fault. This is the court's fault for murdering two people however many hundreds of years ago, instead of finding some other way to accomplish that end. Whatever else she is, Annie is also a psychopomp, and if she sees a miserable ghost that needs to rest in peace, she's going to send it to the ether. Do you fault a dog for eating meat? (This is also why I don't blame Coyote and Ysengrin for this situation. How do you 'blame' two animal gods?) It's also the court's fault for antagonizing a couple of canine deities.
I also can't understand why she is being left out of court business. Because she removed Jeanne? No one but Andrew and Parley and a few others know that, and if they're the ones excluding her, that's a new level of shittiness. Because she's the forest medium and the forest just attacked? That makes no sense - why wouldn't the court want the help and insight of someone like Annie?
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on May 16, 2018 11:57:24 GMT
Paz for distracting Kat from her work. |
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Post by faiiry on May 16, 2018 11:59:55 GMT
Paz for distracting Kat from her work. Surma for sending Annie to GKG in the first place. |
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Post by youwiththeface on May 16, 2018 12:08:33 GMT
Sir Young & co. are, of course, entirely blameless. Yes, in fact they are. In their time, they were creating a shield for the Court using morally despicable, yet very effective means. They can be blamed for what was done to Jeanne and Green guy, but not for the current mess. Yeah, like how the Iraq war had nothing to do with the current mess in the middle east. What they did to Jeanne and her lover has had far-reaching consequences: Coyote wanted Ysengrin to be able to cross the ravine and cause havoc when he did so, hence the long term memory stealing. It's also quite possibly delayed and stagnated any chance for peace the Forest and the Court had, as it's made it so they can ignore each other or that much more easily scheme in secret to hurt each other. To say nothing of the Court's experiments with the ether and the child exchange program. Annie and her friends have shaken up the status quo but it's both due to the history of both sides and the inability of either to deal with such a thing that this has happened. |
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jocobo
Junior Member
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Post by jocobo on May 16, 2018 12:09:41 GMT
So I have a question here: Jeanne prevents passage across the Annan Waters. She stuck at the bottom of the ravine though. She cant do anything at the top, nor does she do anything about crossing over the ravine. JEanne made the waters of the Annan impassable. But Ysengrin didn't try to Cross the water. Coyote/Ysengrin shattered the bridge and made a new one with a tree. He is later seen flying above the Court and then flies back into the Forest. He also attacks the court from within by sprouting seeds from the forest that have been there for years.
At what stage of this assault does Jeanne being there make a difference? None of this takes place in the area she defends: the waters at the bottom of the ravine.
Lets go a step further. We know Ysengrin was hesitant to do anything when Jeanne was there. But, that was also normal Ysengrin. This one was the strength of Coyote.
We've seen Jeanne fight. I can buy her being able to defeat Ysengrin. I am not buying her being able to take out this new form though.
I'm just not seeing how Jeanne still being around in anyway prevents the current events of the story from taking place.
I'd wager there's nothing Jeanne being around would actually be able to do to help in this situation. But her absence would do a great job of giving Annie a sense of false guilt, one that may spur her into action and into doing something that would otherwise be a terrible idea. From the moment Coyote decided to give Ysengrin his strength, this was going to happen Jeanne or no Jeanne. I imagine he's only waited until now for some machination of his (Like Jeanne's absence making Annie feel guilty)
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Post by todd on May 16, 2018 12:55:58 GMT
I agree that the blame goes around a lot. I think the ultimate blame lies with the Founders - not just because of their double murder, but also for coming to the vicinity of Gilltie Wood and building the Court there. If they weren't living next door to the forest filled with potentially hostile forest-folk, they wouldn't have "needed" to kill Jeanne and her lover, and there'd be no tensions between the Court and the Forest for Coyote to exploit for his own amusement. (If they really were fleeing persecution, there must have been better places to take refuge in - and in any case, I still suspect that they came to carry out their experiments rather than just to seek safety - making the real blame a Faustian appetite. I don't think that the Court see themselves as "man's attempt to become God", as Coyote claims, but it still seems to be what they're doing.)
I also agree with jocobo that Jeanne wouldn't have made a difference; all of Ysengrin's attacks bypassed the bottom of the river. (Unless we assume that Jeanne could have moved beyond her regular location in an emergency - which the Founders wouldn't have wanted, since: a) it would be harder to keep her a secret and hush up their great shame and b) she hates the Court even more than she hates the forest-folk and such freedom of movement could allow her to slaughter the very people whom she was supposed to protect.)
It's easy to blame Annie over this - but let's not forget that she'd learned that two people had been murdered and their ghosts unjustly imprisoned in an eternal nightmare of agony and hatred, and she had the ability to free them. Turning her back on them would have made her complicit to the original crime. (The only alternative I can think of would have been to leave the Court and never return, refusing to enjoy the ill-gotten gains of the Founders' scheme.)
I certainly hope that the story is not going to take a tone of "The Founders were right to do what they did to Jeanne after all" approach.
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ffkonoko
New Member
I've been a New Member for 9 years.
Posts: 44
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Post by ffkonoko on May 16, 2018 13:00:32 GMT
Direct 1-1 link between the waters no longer being guarded, and coyote deciding to grant Ys's wish, for a start.
One could probably also wonder if Jeanne was specifically tuned to be more effective against etheric beings.
Also, entirely anticipated defense of Annie, (and I disagree that it's easy to blame Annie, as evidenced by the vast majority of replies immediately moving to absolve her) but she SHOULD accept her part of the blame. Yes, other people can and should also blame themselves, but, for a start, freeing Jeanne was very much driven by Annie. There were definitely more than a few people that noted that Jones told her to tell her about it when she found out more, which is very different to "don't tell me about it, even after you remove the protective divide between these two very different groups that require mediums and would otherwise keep murdering/invading each other". However I'm not looking to explain culpability. I understand that Annie is the viewpoint character and we've had a long time with her, but just like with Anthony (who has a LOT in common with Annie, but due to the difference in sequence of events and perspective to things, has a very different response), I feel like people are blinding themselves to her being a nuanced and flawed character. She's also a very human one, though, which is great.
If she looked around at the current emergency situation and didn't feel entirely responsible, I'd actively hate the character. She is NOT entirely responsible, and the "all" is definitively wrong, as other people have noted...but she would feel like the worst sociopath in the comic and downright inhuman if she didn't have those human feelings and reasonable reactions to seeing such large scale damage come about from events she was involved in.
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Post by ohthatone on May 16, 2018 13:25:37 GMT
List of people with shares of blame in order of magnitude: Ysengrin (for probably having a big part in the squabble that required the Court and Wood to be divided) Diego Coyote for spinning Ys up and then repeatedly giving him powers Ysengrin again for actually attacking a bunch of humans who are long dead, including Steadman Jan's dad and the other grand poobahs for doing very little to prevent this Robot for not coming back to the Court after taking Shadow home to the wood Antimony for not telling Robot to come back Surma for tricking Renard Did I forget anyone? Tom of course  |
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Post by todd on May 16, 2018 13:47:55 GMT
List of people with shares of blame in order of magnitude: Ysengrin (for probably having a big part in the squabble that required the Court and Wood to be divided) Diego Coyote for spinning Ys up and then repeatedly giving him powers Ysengrin again for actually attacking a bunch of humans who are long dead, including Steadman Jan's dad and the other grand poobahs for doing very little to prevent this Robot for not coming back to the Court after taking Shadow home to the wood Antimony for not telling Robot to come back Surma for tricking Renard Did I forget anyone? Tom of course And maybe the man who died in the desert, saw a coyote eyeing him hungrily in his final moments, and couldn't accept the fact that it was just a hungry animal. |
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Post by ohthatone on May 16, 2018 13:52:20 GMT
I don't think Annie gets to have ALL the blame, but certainly some of it, if only because she set certain things in motion, whether by will or by accident. but as others have pointed out, there is plenty of blame to go around.
I am starting to think releasing Jeanne really had not much to do with current events. Coyote chose now to give Ysengrin his powers (still not buying he didn't plan on Ysengrin doing what he did) and nothing he did would have been prevented by Jeanne. Obviously Ysengrote (or whatever) didn't need the Annan. So what else changed? the green guy was released, the arrow is gone...?
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Post by Per on May 16, 2018 13:53:58 GMT
"You see, my name is Antimony Carver. I would like to share with you the strange events..."
(Comic goes on an infinite loop)
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Post by todd on May 16, 2018 14:04:06 GMT
I don't think Annie gets to have ALL the blame, but certainly some of it, if only because she set certain things in motion, whether by will or by accident. but as others have pointed out, there is plenty of blame to go around. My real concern about this isn't Annie but Jeanne. That Annie's made mistakes and done foolish things many times over the course of the story, I don't have problems with. What I'm concerned about is whether the story will be able to depict this without suggesting that it's all right to murder two people to handle a dispute between two groups, and that those two people's ghosts should remain trapped in some horrific limbo-state, one of them, at least, consumed with anger, hatred, and revenge, because keeping them in that state might protect one of those groups. I'm hoping that Tom will be able to walk that narrow line. |
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