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Post by warrl on Apr 9, 2018 20:21:56 GMT
Ysengrim needs to consider how many legends there are of humans destroying monsters, versus legends of humans destroying amusing nuisances.
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Post by merry76 on Apr 9, 2018 21:58:34 GMT
Well, this appears to go all pear shaped. However, we know since "The great Secret" (Chapter 39) that Coyote was created by Man, and exists because Man exists. If he uses the power he gains from them to destroy them, he would loose it all by stopping to exist.
I am not sure Ysengrin is smart enough to get this. Or accepts the reality of it, because he was doubtful in that very chapter that this is true. Maybe he will find out, and that was Coyotes plan? But then again, Coyote isnt really the type for a Xanatos Gambit, nor is he Tzeentch (meaning that he is a smart trickster, not a schemer. Or is he?).
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Post by calpal on Apr 9, 2018 23:21:36 GMT
Ysengrim needs to consider how many legends there are of humans destroying monsters, versus legends of humans destroying amusing nuisances. Destroying monsters is one thing, but Ysengrin was given the power of a GOD; that is what Coyote was, a purely divine being far above the rank and file of monsters and other mythological beasts. There aren't many myths and fables at all, or at least drastically far fewer, which pertain to humans destroying or defeating gods. Even in Greek mythology, Gods are not fully bested by mortals in the sense of what you're talking about; Zeus happily gets away with sleeping with women; Athena turns Arachne into the first spider for besting her in a weaving competition; Heracles is consistently tormented by Hera and, depending on myth, is tricked by her to kill his wife and child; even Achilles, the greatest Greek warrior of myth, was eventually taken down by an arrow to the heel... Diomedes, second only to Achilles and also present at the Battle of Troy, was the most successful, in terms of besting Gods in physical combat (still, he also required the gifts of the Gods to do so, mostly Athena's blessings). The kind of power Ysengrin is unleashing is not something mortals can contend with. No, this act of violence might require truly divine intervention to have any hope of stopping him.
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Post by todd on Apr 10, 2018 0:21:39 GMT
The kind of power Ysengrin is unleashing is not something mortals can contend with. No, this act of violence might require truly divine intervention to have any hope of stopping him. And Coyote's the only candidate (in the sense of the only full-fledged god on stage in the comic). Though that would have its own problems - assuming that they were able to restore Coyote and he could handle Ysengrin, the Court would then be in his debt - and knowing Coyote, he'd exploit that to such an extent that the Court would wind up concluding that they were better off with Ysengrin. (If this is indeed all part of Coyote's scheme, that could be the goal he's aiming for.) One challenge, if they could restore Coyote, would be that Ysengrin now has Coyote's strength. (Of course, if they restore him from the gifts he gave Annie, Parley, and Smith, as some people have suggested, that might not be as big a problem, since he gave those gifts before he bestowed his strength on Ysengrin.) Though I'm not sure about the "bringing Coyote back to life" as a solution for this problem. If Coyote was revived before the end of the chapter, it would most likely blunt the force of his death. If the guy's going to return, it would best be after several chapters, to give us the full impact of his death and absence, and it doesn't look as if the Court's got several chapters.
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Post by todd on Apr 10, 2018 0:30:06 GMT
Still waiting for the villain speech/ultimatum but sounds like he's nearly ready for it. Or Ysengrin might think that the Court is unworthy of an ultimatum, after the way it's looked upon the forest-folk. A case of "Since they treat us as if we were but mindless beasts, we shall do the same."
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Post by mturtle7 on Apr 10, 2018 0:54:15 GMT
Well, this appears to go all pear shaped. However, we know since "The great Secret" (Chapter 39) that Coyote was created by Man, and exists because Man exists. If he uses the power he gains from them to destroy them, he would loose it all by stopping to exist. I am not sure Ysengrin is smart enough to get this. Or accepts the reality of it, because he was doubtful in that very chapter that this is true. Maybe he will find out, and that was Coyotes plan? But then again, Coyote isnt really the type for a Xanatos Gambit, nor is he Tzeentch (meaning that he is a smart trickster, not a schemer. Or is he?). I mean...first of all, I doubt that Ysengrin is actually planning to go full-on global genocide against the entire human race. Other "gods" would probably put a stop to that, if nothing else. Second of all, I always interpreted Coyote's strange theory a little differently. Even if beings like Coyote are in fact created by human imagination, that doesn't mean they're mantained by humanity(the present day humanity, anyway). Remember, the enitre premise of his idea is that a person's "comforting story" doesn't die when they do, but is absorbed into the ether, and then it stays there and manifests as a real life Coyote. He's not maintained by living humans' beliefs, but dead ones. So...hm. I guess that means...that every person Ysengrin kills...would just make him even more powerful. 0_0 That's not where I originally going with this argument, but now it's too terrifying to leave unsaid.
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Post by matoyak on Apr 10, 2018 4:46:27 GMT
Ysengrim needs to consider how many legends there are of humans destroying monsters, versus legends of humans destroying amusing nuisances. Destroying monsters is one thing, but Ysengrin was given the power of a GOD; that is what Coyote was, a purely divine being far above the rank and file of monsters and other mythological beasts. There aren't many myths and fables at all, or at least drastically far fewer, which pertain to humans destroying or defeating gods. Even in Greek mythology, Gods are not fully bested by mortals in the sense of what you're talking about; Zeus happily gets away with sleeping with women; Athena turns Arachne into the first spider for besting her in a weaving competition; Heracles is consistently tormented by Hera and, depending on myth, is tricked by her to kill his wife and child; even Achilles, the greatest Greek warrior of myth, was eventually taken down by an arrow to the heel... Diomedes, second only to Achilles and also present at the Battle of Troy, was the most successful, in terms of besting Gods in physical combat (still, he also required the gifts of the Gods to do so, mostly Athena's blessings). The kind of power Ysengrin is unleashing is not something mortals can contend with. No, this act of violence might require truly divine intervention to have any hope of stopping him. mmm...I assume you're ignoring more modern "myths" and stories due to the lack of time for them to gain subconscious strength? I could see the argument for that*, as they haven't yet had the power to really become considered "real" in the way that myths once did, but then again, there's a lot *more* humans in modern era. There are quite a lot of stories from at least the 1800s onward, especially in the 1900s and 2000s, of men defeating god(s). Granted, lots of those are video games, comic books, anime, manga, web comics, etc. But still. *Especially as this comic seems to take place in a semi-nebulous era around WWI, WWII,and the fallout around those...kind of defeating a lot of my - not super hard fought - argument here...
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Post by merry76 on Apr 10, 2018 6:38:16 GMT
So...hm. I guess that means...that every person Ysengrin kills...would just make him even more powerful. 0_0 That's not where I originally going with this argument, but now it's too terrifying to leave unsaid. That is the conundrum here: it will work (without countermeasure) for a while, but it isnt sustainable. There is also a reason Coyote dug up the annan waters. He didnt need to, but there was a reason to it that we do not know of. Why the whole business with Jeanne was done I dont quite get, but it was way after the establishment of the court and the digging up of the annan waters (simply has to be, or it would make little sense that Jeannes lover had to cross the waters in the first place). The sealed waters also didnt prevent Coyote or Ysengrin to enter the court, they just put a limit on it. You can only enter if you are invited, that sort of thing. Anyway, I am hyped for this chapter. I guess Annie has got stuff to do. Her power is Fire, and Coyote Powered Ysengrins power is Wood. That wont end well... They kinda liked eachother, and now they have to fight.
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Nut
New Member
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Post by Nut on Apr 10, 2018 12:05:51 GMT
Is anyone else thinking this is a setup for a "your true power was inside you all along" storyline? Coyote gives Annie the tooth in the same chapter where he invites her to see what Ysengrin is "underneath" the trees he cloaks himself in. He looks weakened, tired, ill. "Quite pathetic, don't you think?" Coyote asks. But later, he invites her to peer into the ether, and she sees how Coyote and Ysengrin appear there: the former, "magnificent" and "terrifying", and the latter--"beautiful". Later in the chapter, he says she has seen three Ysengrins-- the way others see him, the way he sees himself, and the way he truly is. These appear to correspond to the pictures in the panel, but it is unclear which is which. I find it most logical to see it as corresponding in order from right to left, which would mean: Others see him the way he presents himself wrapped in his body of trees; he sees himself as old, weak, and losing strength; and his appearance in the ether is how he truly is. "I want you to keep in mind the real Ysengrin!" Coyote says--and it's at that moment that he gives her his tooth. This makes me think (as I think others have suggested) he gave it to her either as a fallback plan in case of a scenario like this, or he planned/expected this to happen all along. In either case, it would make sense for him to not want anyone else in the forest to know about it (hence the binding on Annie's wrist) because whatever strategy he intended, it most likely would rely on Ysengrin not expecting Annie to have the tooth. What is Coyote's plan? What might Coyote want from the Court? Reynard. He's been preserving his body for him in the forest, waiting for his return. Coyote originally came to the forest to make it a place of union between him, Ysengrin, and Reynard. The humans interfered with this by trying to tame them, causing Coyote to make the divide. He promised to leave everyone on their side alone, so he can't come claim Reynard himself. But Ysengrin...Why does Ysengrin hate humans? Because they make him feel weak. He sees himself as weak. This is why he has been constantly wanting Coyote's strength, because he feels he has no self-worth without power. He despises the idea that humans may be the reason he exists. This is what drives him to attack Annie in the forest before. Something I noticed on reread is that Annie often stands up for Ysengrin against Coyote's poor treatment of him. Coyote's response makes it seem like he feels justified in calling Ysengrin names. I don't believe, however, that Coyote actually looks down on Ysengrin. He must know what he looks like in the ether. My impression is that Coyote goads him and calls him names because he sees that Ysengrin is not his true self. Ysengrin feels that he is weak, and Coyote sees that this holds him back from being who he really is, because he focuses all his energy on longing for the power he thinks will give him self-worth. So, the solution? Give him the power he craves so badly, and let him discover that it's not what he wanted or will make him happy after all. (Let's be honest, Coyote would probably think that's hilarious.) As for whether Coyote planned to be eaten, I'm undecided, but I feel like he could have at least foreseen the possibility (hence the tooth). He looked genuinely terrified when Ysengrin took him by the neck, but he's a being of the ether. I was trying to figure out the significance of Coyote appearing with a skeletal lower jaw, which recurs frequently but I never took special notice of what it seemed to correspond to, but its appearance on this page made me think that he may appear this way when he's growing closer to his etheric form or origins. There may be better examples or other explanations, but it was the first thing I was able to hit upon without doing a thorough search. His jaw becomes skeletal after he gives Ysengrin his strength, making me think he knows he's growing closer to the ether. But he's always seemed to jump back and forth between the ether and whatever his "existence" is, so who knows if he's really dead, or if it's possible for him to die. I don't know if he'll return in his old form, but I'm still taking the side of being very surprised if he's gone entirely. How Ysengrin learns his lesson remains to be seen, but it looks to me like he can't be his whole self unless he accepts his true strength is in the ether, which is the part of himself he most rejects.
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Post by hp on Apr 10, 2018 22:06:39 GMT
yeah Ysengrim just went full Akira! As for who's got the upper hand, Ys or Cs... Coyote is a master of multidimensional chess and has been setting up his long con for centuries. I'd bet everything is going exactly as he planned — even if Ysengrim actually killed him and *is* in control right now. Narratively, it would also make more sense that way. Coyote's agenda is being hinted since forever and yet it still wasn't clearly layed out... So a sudden out-of-the-blue hijacking by Ysengrim wouldn't have that much impact, since we can't tell what was subverted.
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Post by todd on Apr 11, 2018 0:10:39 GMT
Ysengrim needs to consider how many legends there are of humans destroying monsters, versus legends of humans destroying amusing nuisances. It might not be a good idea for the Court to rely on that, in light of how many legends there also are of "man's attempt to become God" meeting a disastrous fate.
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Post by todd on Apr 11, 2018 0:20:21 GMT
The sealed waters also didnt prevent Coyote or Ysengrin to enter the court, they just put a limit on it. You can only enter if you are invited, that sort of thing. The impression I get is that Jeanne's "range" didn't reach the bridge or the top of the chasm, only the bottom. (Which would make sense; if the Founders realized that what they did to her would make her attack *anyone* that came within reach or not, even inhabitants of the Court - especially inhabitants of the Court, out of her anger over what the Court had done to her, and the reasoning that even those who weren't part of the Founders' scheme are still reaping the benefits of her and her lover's murders and thus are partly guilty - they'd obviously want to contain her so that they would not someday be encountering her sword. I suspect they never anticipated invasion routes that wouldn't use the river - or that their successors would keep seemingly neutralized plants from the Wood within the Court's confines that could be etherically activated from outside.) The bridge's defence was the lamps which would keep shadow-people from crossing (unless sharing someone else's shadow), and which would have discouraged invasions that way, but I doubt that there was anything "etheric" at work here in its properties.
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Post by pyradonis on Apr 11, 2018 12:17:06 GMT
I wonder so many things. What percent of this new creature is Coyote and what percent is Ysengrin? What's the purpose of the trees and the new bridge? Why attack the court now - is there some strategic advantage? Why does Ysengrin seemingly have such clarity of mind, but still lacks any concern for Annie? Will anyone be killed in this attack? Will anyone *important* be killed? Is William an elf? Someone help me. And what is William's special power?
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Post by Runningflame on Apr 11, 2018 18:27:37 GMT
I wonder so many things. What percent of this new creature is Coyote and what percent is Ysengrin? What's the purpose of the trees and the new bridge? Why attack the court now - is there some strategic advantage? Why does Ysengrin seemingly have such clarity of mind, but still lacks any concern for Annie? Will anyone be killed in this attack? Will anyone *important* be killed? Is William an elf? Someone help me. And what is William's special power? Fashion advice.
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kat
New Member
Posts: 12
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Post by kat on Apr 12, 2018 18:26:38 GMT
A few thoughts to ponder:
Coyote is chaotic. He says that his power is derivative of humans (the ether). The Court has been conducting experiments concerning the ether. What do the forest folk who transfer over to the Court do all year at school?
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Post by mishyana on Apr 14, 2018 13:02:32 GMT
I really hope once all is said and done, however this plays out, that Ysengrin and Annie can maintain/repair their friendship. The slow burn development of that was one of my favorite aspects of the earlier chapters.
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Post by todd on Apr 15, 2018 0:07:28 GMT
A few thoughts to ponder: Coyote is chaotic. He says that his power is derivative of humans (the ether). The Court has been conducting experiments concerning the ether. What do the forest folk who transfer over to the Court do all year at school? That might shed new light on Ysengrin calling them traitors.
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