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Post by freedomgeek on Mar 26, 2018 14:50:01 GMT
Kat: "I don't think I caused that. Like 70% sure at least."
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Post by pyradonis on Mar 26, 2018 15:00:58 GMT
This page seems oddly calm compared to the previous ones. On a discussion-related note, what's will all those posts "Now Kat will go full-scale MechaAngalDestructoGod!!!"? Of course she won't. She does not know how to do that or what it looks like (only Zimmy and Annie have seen this form, and neither could really describe it). When she entered the Ether, she just saw a boring chamber with her, Annie, and Jeanne's boyfriend inside. Agreed. Apart from Annie quite insufficient description and Zimmy's " terrifying" she has no idea. Paz saw her ether-form too, but probably never told her (maybe thought she was imagining stuff). Zimmy suggested she always sees her like this, "The Torn Sea" suggest the robots see her like this at least when she's angry at them. On the other hand, it has been suggested before, Kat and the Mecha Angel are not necessarily one and the same. Right, I forgot Paz briefly saw that form too. What I meant by the second part you quoted was that Kat needed Annie AND her device to be able to enter the Ether/go wherever Annie was at the moment, seeing as how she seems to be in the process of touching Annie with the device. Which is reminiscient of when Parley instantly ether-travelled to where Annie's ether-self was being held, when she touched Annie in the physical world. |
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Post by Per on Mar 26, 2018 15:13:53 GMT
"Note to self: scale back new fertilizer by 15%."
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dard
New Member
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Post by dard on Mar 26, 2018 15:17:36 GMT
I do not think that this is Coyote in any way.
I think this whole affair was Coyote testing Ysengrin.
However, I do not know if this test has gone beyond his control. It may be that he was surprised by Ysengrin's actions against him. Or not. If not, then the test is still ongoing. Either he could get back control any time he wants but for the moment is taking a back seat to see where this is going. Or his loss of control was deliberate. Which also wouldn't be a surprise for a trickster such as him.
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Post by fia on Mar 26, 2018 15:23:07 GMT
My mood has shifted a little. I still feel some tension, but I also am starting to desire some mighty level of derring-do. With costume changes, please! Else what the heck was the whole Dr. Disaster simulator chapter about, if not training Annie & Co. to wear wacky costumes while fighting baddies and miscreants?
It helps a bit that Coyogrin looks like such a cartoon villain.
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Post by agasa on Mar 26, 2018 16:06:23 GMT
It looks like the trees are growing together to form an arch. For what purpose though? To serve as a reminder to the humans of their new foresty overlords? Seems too pedestrian for someone with the combined rage of Ysengrin and the nonchalant malice of Coyote. A bridge. |
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Post by saardvark on Mar 26, 2018 16:17:55 GMT
It looks like the trees are growing together to form an arch. For what purpose though? To serve as a reminder to the humans of their new foresty overlords? Seems too pedestrian for someone with the combined rage of Ysengrin and the nonchalant malice of Coyote. A bridge. but it would be a bridge to two spots in the Court... don't see why Ys/Coysengrin would need that. Here's an idea: The trees will arch together and join, and major root systems will jut out away from the arch at its base: Viola! Giant Omega made of wood. As tho Coysengrin is saying.... "We know what you're up to - (Omega project, ahem! ahem!) - but the power of Gillitie, the power of Nature/Forest is unimpressed; here is our Omega to tower over you and your puny attempts to control the ether! To remind you of your pathetic weakness before the power of the Wood!" |
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Post by cunningjames on Mar 26, 2018 17:53:23 GMT
Remember when Jack was controlled by the aetheric spider? I remember asking Tom on the Q and A site if the right interpretation was that it *was* Jack controlling things -- just heavily under the influence of that entity. He concurred, IIRC.
I suspect that's what we're seeing with Coyote and Ysengrin right now. It really is the latter, but with such heavily influenced behavior that the level of responsibility is up for debate.
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Post by arkadi on Mar 26, 2018 19:02:34 GMT
This page does confirm that these events really are happening in the comic and aren't just a "fantasy sequence" of Ysengrin's (as a couple of readers had suggested). Neither Ysengrin nor Coyote have ever met Kat, so they'd be unable to create her point of view of these events so accurately. You're assuming that not having personally met Kat would be a problem for Coyote. But maybe that's assuming too much? We simply don't know the true extent of his powers. |
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ffkonoko
New Member
I've been a New Member for 9 years.
Posts: 44
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Post by ffkonoko on Mar 26, 2018 21:49:24 GMT
Hold everything. I was looking through old pages and I think I just worked it out. This is Ysengrin in control. His memories being returned have given him more stability of purpose...he's not angry, unstable and out of control right now. But Coyote DOES have a bigger plan...and I think the Tooth is it. That's why Coyote was very careful to make sure he didn't learn about it. gunnerkrigg.com/?p=824 |
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Post by mturtle7 on Mar 26, 2018 23:25:45 GMT
On a discussion-related note, what's will all those posts "Now Kat will go full-scale MechaAngalDestructoGod!!!"? Of course she won't. She does not know how to do that or what it looks like (only Zimmy and Annie have seen this form, and neither could really describe it). When she entered the Ether, she just saw a boring chamber with her, Annie, and Jeanne's boyfriend inside. Probably she also needed Annie as a proxy to even get there. But...b-but...KAIJU VS. MECHA BATTLES!!!!! YOU CAN'T DENY THE KAIJU VS. MECHA BATTLE!!! CAN YOU?!? |
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Post by todd on Mar 27, 2018 1:07:27 GMT
It's possible that all this is simply a display of power and dominance. Once it becomes obvious, that the Court can't do anything, Ysengrin(or whom ever he is) may simply leave the trees and return to the Forest. I hope so; I think it's still a bit too early in the comic for the big showdown. If this is just the opening of a new phase in the tensions between the Court and the Wood, with no actual clashes (beyond whatever damage the giant trees have already done), there's still room for a variety of stories and continuing to explore the various threads. (On a more trivial note, it'd be tempting to imagine the trees re-shaping themselves to resemble giant horses - since they're wooden and the people of the Court made the mistake of, if not actually bringing them into their home, at least keeping them there.) |
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Post by arf on Mar 27, 2018 1:13:33 GMT
Kat looks up at trees in Gunnerkrigg Court. "Oh cool. Maybe I can do that trick Annie wanted me to try now?" (if this goes aetheric, Kat may see Ysenote as a bad puppy* who's just wet the floor, and deal with him with a rolled up newspaper. Ysengrin will be in trauma for some time after.) *For those who say there's no such thing as a bad puppy, this is generally true. However, Ysengrin is a very *old* bad puppy |
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Post by philman on Mar 27, 2018 8:19:54 GMT
But then Coyote would be faking his death, and that would mean he broke his word. Coyote is dead (but with quite a large number of hints he will be resurrected). With regaining his memories, Ysengrin seemingly also regained control over his actions (but Coyote may well have helped by leaving some suggestions among those memories). The "it's really Coyote, housed in Ysengrin's body" theory argues that Coyote's bending his word rather than breaking it, because it's technically Ysengrin doing those things (which does seem the kind of scheme that a trickster would pull). As I mentioned above, from a storytelling perspective, I'm hoping that Tom will make it Ysengrin's will and desires behind this, not Coyote's (there'd even be something satisfying - and also true to the nature of tricksters - in Coyote's scheme backfiring on him), but I don't know as yet which he actually intends. The next few pages may make it clearer which theory is the correct one. I think that this is really Ysengrin as well, not coyote. Coyote has manipulated Ysengrin into doing this, but he is not being directly controlled (What was that chapter where Ysengrin said that the only authority the forest knows is strength. When Coyote gave his to Ysengrin, Coyote was no longer worthy of authority, and Ysengrin needed to assert his). By giving Ysengrin his strength, Coyote knew that he would then try and take the rest of his power, and the years of manipulation to take Ysengrin to the edge of insanity would cause interesting chaos directed at the court. The death of Coyote at the hands of Ysengrin was all part of Coyote's plan. It wouldn't surprise me if the coyote juice given to Parley plays some role in the reincarnation of Coyote at some opportune time, ready to take his powers back from Ysengrin and retake his place in the forest. |
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fjodorii
Full Member
It just does, ok?
Posts: 134
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Post by fjodorii on Mar 27, 2018 9:45:04 GMT
Maybe Ysengrin will grow new buildings - Gillitie style? Right now, I have a picture in my mind of the trees being two horns. Imagine the size of the end boss that would wear them  |
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Post by todd on Mar 27, 2018 12:37:40 GMT
The death of Coyote at the hands of Ysengrin was all part of Coyote's plan. It wouldn't surprise me if the coyote juice given to Parley plays some role in the reincarnation of Coyote at some opportune time, ready to take his powers back from Ysengrin and retake his place in the forest. Which gets me thinking, "Quick! Destroy all those pieces of Coyote before they sprout him anew and we're stuck with him all over again!" (Maybe even that wouldn't work, though; it's likely that Coyote could simply reform from the ether itself thanks to being a prominent mythical figure. And while perhaps the Court's projects could eventually take care of that, the way these things so often work, it would probably mean wiping out every other etheric being in the world, regardless of whether they've shared in Coyote's trouble-making ways.) |
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Post by todd on Mar 27, 2018 15:18:10 GMT
Hold everything. I was looking through old pages and I think I just worked it out. This is Ysengrin in control. His memories being returned have given him more stability of purpose...he's not angry, unstable and out of control right now. As I mentioned before, from a "storytelling perspective", I'd rather this be Ysengrin in control than Coyote in control. We've been given a lot of insight into Ysengrin's character - his anger at the Court and humanity, his developing paternal feelings for Annie in conflict with that hatred, his suffering at Coyote's hands. This chapter opened with more about these internal conflicts, his trials, the rest of his inner life - building up to his finally turning on Coyote after all the abuse the trickster had dealt out to him. If this is Ysengrin, we're seeing a continuation of that story, with Ysengrin now using his new powers to direct his anger upon the Court, with the potential for even more as Annie (presumably) tries to reach out to his warmer side. If this is Coyote in Ysengrin's body, if what we're looking at is no longer Ysengrin but the thing that killed him from within, then Ysengrin's tale is over, unresolved, and all we have is the trickster that exploited him, now masquerading as Ysengrin and showering devastation on the Court, not from the long years of resentment festering inside the wolf, but just entertainment. I hope Tom's taking the former course - that the thoughts and motives behind this attack are Ysengrin's, not Coyote's. Coyote does strike me as the kind of character who, if you're not careful while writing him, winds up taking over the story to the point where you'd expect him to slap a sign reading "The Adventures of Coyote" over the "Gunnerkrigg Court" logo at the top of the page, turning into the main character while Annie, Kat, and everyone else are demoted to just people for him to meddle with. |
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Post by liminal on Mar 27, 2018 17:10:00 GMT
Coyote does strike me as the kind of character who, if you're not careful while writing him, winds up taking over the story to the point where you'd expect him to slap a sign reading "The Adventures of Coyote" over the "Gunnerkrigg Court" logo at the top of the page, turning into the main character while Annie, Kat, and everyone else are demoted to just people for him to meddle with. Coyote is Gunnerkrigg’s Bill Cipher, after all. |
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Post by darlos9d on Mar 27, 2018 19:47:35 GMT
Hold everything. I was looking through old pages and I think I just worked it out. This is Ysengrin in control. His memories being returned have given him more stability of purpose...he's not angry, unstable and out of control right now. But Coyote DOES have a bigger plan...and I think the Tooth is it. That's why Coyote was very careful to make sure he didn't learn about it. gunnerkrigg.com/?p=824Uh... well, that's something I completely forgot about. Shit. |
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Post by Runningflame on Mar 27, 2018 22:18:44 GMT
Hmm. Does anyone else see a visual echo of this page? Just sayin'. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Mar 27, 2018 23:36:50 GMT
The death of Coyote at the hands of Ysengrin was all part of Coyote's plan. It wouldn't surprise me if the coyote juice given to Parley plays some role in the reincarnation of Coyote at some opportune time, ready to take his powers back from Ysengrin and retake his place in the forest. Which gets me thinking, "Quick! Destroy all those pieces of Coyote before they sprout him anew and we're stuck with him all over again!" (Maybe even that wouldn't work, though; it's likely that Coyote could simply reform from the ether itself thanks to being a prominent mythical figure. And while perhaps the Court's projects could eventually take care of that, the way these things so often work, it would probably mean wiping out every other etheric being in the world, regardless of whether they've shared in Coyote's trouble-making ways.) I figure the currents of ether are the important thing and I don't think the Court can do much about them yet. Past flow has dug a deep trickster-shaped channel in the collective unconsciousness. Coyote's body was merely whatever rocks, soil, or other natural materials that were handy. His personality and memories were/are like the nozzle on the end of a hose, or a decorating tip on a pastry bag, that controlled what the end result of the etheric flow is shaped like (what the body did as well as what Coyote's power made manifest). The flow is currently routed through Ys but he isn't a trickster and won't use Coyote's power in the same ways therefore he can't take Coyote's role forever; eventually the ether will return to its original channel. As long as Coyote is remembered then he will return as the same Coyote. Some particular point somewhere (like a Coyote-shaped rock or a coyote skeleton) will spontaneously remember that he's Coyote, though if the kids manage to bring him back by cutting him out of Ys with The Tooth or reassembling him with lake water then he can return much faster and the story will be more interesting, which I think is Coyote's plan. Even if they fail, Ys blasting power in different directions will eventually allow a returned Coyote to enjoy an improved channel, dug slightly broader, deeper, and straighter than before. What the Court probably wants to do is to siphon ether and make things happen directly, not just inside the Court but outside (farther from the ether). A more sophisticated and sustainable approach could be possible that could create *mechanical* energy from interfering or limiting undesired etheric effects and concentrating the resulting side effects in a very small space. You could then use that mechanical energy like any other energy source (to do stuff). This wouldn't be "free energy" but it would look like it, since it would be the withdrawal of energy from a large complex system in a way that normal people wouldn't be able to perceive, and it may actually be helpful by, say limiting Zeta's power or reducing hauntings or objectively bad political movements* or something. The etheric flows themselves will likely resist this, likely with intelligence through the personalities the flows possess, but less so than swiping ether directly so it might still be practical. *And yes, the possibility for abuse is massive but that's always the case when science progresses. |
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Post by pyradonis on Mar 28, 2018 16:05:27 GMT
What the Court probably wants to do is to siphon ether and make thinks happen directly, not just inside the Court but outside (farther from the ether). A more sophisticated and sustainable approach could be possible that could create *mechanical* energy from interfering or limiting undesired etheric effects and concentrating the resulting side effects in a very small space. You could then use that mechanical energy like any other energy source (to do stuff). This wouldn't be "free energy" but it would look like it, since it would be the withdrawal of energy from a large complex system in a way that normal people wouldn't be able to perceive, and it may actually be helpful by, say limiting Zeta's power or reducing hauntings or objectively bad political movements* or something. The etheric flows themselves will likely resist this, likely with intelligence through the personalities the flows possess, but less so than swiping ether directly so it might still be practical. *And yes, the possibility for abuse is massive but that's always the case when science progresses. This vision has a certain Final Fantasy VII vibe... |
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Post by mturtle7 on Mar 29, 2018 0:52:26 GMT
What the Court probably wants to do is to siphon ether and make things happen directly, not just inside the Court but outside (farther from the ether). A more sophisticated and sustainable approach could be possible that could create *mechanical* energy from interfering or limiting undesired etheric effects and concentrating the resulting side effects in a very small space. You could then use that mechanical energy like any other energy source (to do stuff). This wouldn't be "free energy" but it would look like it, since it would be the withdrawal of energy from a large complex system in a way that normal people wouldn't be able to perceive, and it may actually be helpful by, say limiting Zeta's power or reducing hauntings or objectively bad political movements* or something. The etheric flows themselves will likely resist this, likely with intelligence through the personalities the flows possess, but less so than swiping ether directly so it might still be practical. *And yes, the possibility for abuse is massive but that's always the case when science progresses. Dear god. It could become like global warming, except messing with magic and folklore instead of the climate. Now THAT would get very interesting, very quickly... |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Mar 29, 2018 5:52:13 GMT
What the Court probably wants to do is to siphon ether and make things happen directly, not just inside the Court but outside (farther from the ether). A more sophisticated and sustainable approach could be possible that could create *mechanical* energy from interfering or limiting undesired etheric effects and concentrating the resulting side effects in a very small space. Dear god. It could become like global warming, except messing with magic and folklore instead of the climate. Now THAT would get very interesting, very quickly... Any resource collection affects the larger environment. There's lesser tropes and stock characters that we could probably do without entirely, and I figure we could do with say, a 1/3 reduction in Adults Are Useless in return for the human ingenuity and energy being cycled into electrical energy with half that efficiency. The hidden cost there would be the fictional works where the authors couldn't generate a work-around (probably no big loss) and the extra effort put in to make more believable settings for underage protagonists' adventures in those works that will be completed anyway. Perhaps for the cost of reducing the overall human interest in something inherently useless (or bad) a source of clean energy could be gained but that begs the questions, "Is any part of the human collective unconscious something we can safely do with less of?" and of course "Will there be any unforeseen consequences?" And the problems wouldn't be limited to consequences, unintended or otherwise. There's also the matter of the sort of machines that can manipulate the ether. Anthony Carver demonstrated the "inputs" needed to make a sort of device that was capable of manipulating the ether and I would argue that his skill as a surgeon was the key ingredient, not the flesh and bone, though those things may have been required for him to believe in it so that it would work. It might be possible in the GC universe to ethically extract the parts that would be needed a little bit at a time, say, voluntarily from people who were already nearing the end of their stories. The RotD wouldn't look kindly on that, as they'd have less useful bits to take, but I'm not sure what they could do about it once they noticed it. Moreover, if the energy made things possible for humans that weren't before, thus inspiring more imagination, there might be a net increase in the overall system. Sadly, I suspect these possibilities won't be explored in GC but maybe Mr. Siddell will do some other work in the future that delves into it. |
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Post by Runningflame on Mar 29, 2018 20:25:22 GMT
Dear god. It could become like global warming, except messing with magic and folklore instead of the climate. Now THAT would get very interesting, very quickly... Any resource collection affects the larger environment. There's lesser tropes and stock characters that we could probably do without entirely, and I figure we could do with say, a 1/3 reduction in Adults Are Useless in return for the human ingenuity and energy being cycled into electrical energy with half that efficiency. The hidden cost there would be the fictional works where the authors couldn't generate a work-around (probably no big loss) and the extra effort put in to make more believable settings for underage protagonists' adventures in those works that will be completed anyway. Perhaps for the cost of reducing the overall human interest in something inherently useless (or bad) a source of clean energy could be gained but that begs the questions, "Is any part of the human collective unconscious something we can safely do with less of?" and of course "Will there be any unforeseen consequences?" And the problems wouldn't be limited to consequences, unintended or otherwise. There's also the matter of the sort of machines that can manipulate the ether. Anthony Carver demonstrated the "inputs" needed to make a sort of device that was capable of manipulating the ether and I would argue that his skill as a surgeon was the key ingredient, not the flesh and bone, though those things may have been required for him to believe in it so that it would work. It might be possible in the GC universe to ethically extract the parts that would be needed a little bit at a time, say, voluntarily from people who were already nearing the end of their stories. The RotD wouldn't look kindly on that, as they'd have less useful bits to take, but I'm not sure what they could do about it once they noticed it. Moreover, if the energy made things possible for humans that weren't before, thus inspiring more imagination, there might be a net increase in the overall system. Sadly, I suspect these possibilities won't be explored in GC but maybe Mr. Siddell will do some other work in the future that delves into it. That is a really, really weird idea. I would read that story.  |
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Post by todd on Mar 30, 2018 0:09:26 GMT
I wonder if the Court really *is* trying to control human consciousness, the etheric world, etc. by manipulating the ether at the power plant (or elsewhere). It seems obvious to us because we've learned Coyote's secret (as has Annie) - but does the Court know it? We've seen no evidence of that as yet (and it doesn't sound like the kind of thing Coyote would share with just anyone).
More likely the Court just sees the ether as something that's still an unknown, but which they want to explain, just as they can explain other scientific phenomena, and are simply studying it from a theoretical point of view, with no plans for making it into "applied science" - unaware of the potential results of their studies and experiments (just as Kat is unaware that the robots regard her as a goddess, and that their belief is turning her into one).
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