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Post by aquamafia on Feb 23, 2018 20:33:28 GMT
...also if memories are tied to sanity, does that mean Ysengrin has literally been losing his marbles?
That seems like the kinda sick joke Coyote (and Tom) would pull.
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Demonsul
New Member
Seven years a new member
Posts: 44 
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Post by Demonsul on Feb 23, 2018 20:43:57 GMT
I'm pretty sure Coyote's plan here is to bombard Ysengrin with an overwhelming surge of his own "I will show the humans how weak they truly are" and make him believe, if only for one vital moment, that he wants to do something incredibly, painfully, violently inadvisable.
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Post by Sky Schemer on Feb 23, 2018 21:15:26 GMT
Today, the ping pong table. Tomorrow, the world.
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Post by faiiry on Feb 23, 2018 21:24:33 GMT
There is a lot that's powerful about panel 3.
First of all, Ysengrin is RIPPED.
Second of all, you can see the ruins of his former tree body and green clothes lying underneath him and Coyote--rejected, discarded. The very instant he got the chance, not only did he give Coyote the most complete and utter rejection possible, he also rejected the body Coyote gave him. (Not sure if Coyote gave him the clothes? But it's also interesting in that Ysengrin is rejecting all semblance of humanity - clothes, human-shaped body, etc.)
Third of all, Coyote's body is destroyed. Pretty much the entire lower half of his torso has been ripped away. His "ribs" are showing. This was a violent death!
And finally, I wouldn't blame anyone for disagreeing with me, but I don't think Coyote is faking it. I think he has kicked the bucket. (Or Ysengrin has kicked his bucket for him.) In which case, this chapter is one of the most significant in the comic, with the death of one of its most vital characters. After the benign comedy of Katurday, I kind of suspected we would get a mind-blowing game-changing chapter, and here it is. (I might be mistaken, but I think the only previous significant characters to get killed off were ghosts.)
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Post by liminal on Feb 23, 2018 21:32:01 GMT
While this is likely going according to Coyote’s plan, part of me wonders if—as one who achieves his great power from human thought and imagination—memories are his ‘lifeblood’ and he actually is being further weakened. Though it seems there would have to be some severe etheric tampering (ie Omega device) to even damage Coyote, let alone kill him.
An aside: as someone that has followed this comic for about 10 years, these past few pages have been the most agonizing to follow day-to-day. I was lucky in that the one period of time I stopped reading was just before ‘Jeanne’, and resumed just after ‘The Other Shore’.
Edit: fairry has a point. Katurday felt like the comic relief before a significant development, and Coyote’s death would be THE significant development. If the memories are more than just Ysengrin’s (who I believe is more in control than he appears) then we may be witnessing the death of Coyote.
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Post by feraldog on Feb 23, 2018 22:55:46 GMT
Whether or not Coyote is faking, Ysengrin has finally lost it (as Jones predicted, and as Coyote himself wanted). I think this will end badly for wolfdad.
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Post by darlos9d on Feb 23, 2018 23:39:23 GMT
So okay, while I don't expect this to go well in the long run simply because I feel like we're due for some hardcore tragedy and conflict, so far "all" that has happened is Ys attacking and seemingly killing Coyote because it seems like he knows Coyote has all his memories. Rightfully, he wants them back, and decided the best approach was to IMMEDIATELY attack without warning as soon as he could. Which, in his somewhat defense, seems to be working.
Now the question is of course what he does after this. And also how the memories will play into it. Since he knew he needed to pounce immediately, maybe he was planning on explaining himself after the fact. Heck, Annie has seen his memory loss firsthand, if anyone would understand, she would. But, the memories might alter him severely, causing any reasonable plans he might have had to go right out of the window. Is he aware of that possibility? I mean, again, he's right to want HIS memories back, but I wonder how hard he's considered what getting them back all at once will do to him.
Or maybe the power has driven him crazy already. I dunno. But I hope there's SOME dialog before deciding Ys needs to go down. And that if there is, Ys doesn't just fall back on being big, mean, and overly hardcore, "because dominance or something. GRRR."
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Post by mturtle7 on Feb 24, 2018 2:56:50 GMT
Third of all, Coyote's body is destroyed. Pretty much the entire lower half of his torso has been ripped away. His "ribs" are showing. This was a violent death! And finally, I wouldn't blame anyone for disagreeing with me, but I don't think Coyote is faking it. I think he has kicked the bucket. (Or Ysengrin has kicked his bucket for him.) In which case, this chapter is one of the most significant in the comic, with the death of one of its most vital characters. After the benign comedy of Katurday, I kind of suspected we would get a mind-blowing game-changing chapter, and here it is. (I might be mistaken, but I think the only previous significant characters to get killed off were ghosts.) I too have to say that I am growing increasingly skeptical of the "Coyote as ultimate mastermind who can never be harmed" theory. I almost believed it during that whole trip through Ysengrin's memories, tried very hard to believe it as he was flailing in helpless terror under newly-buff Ysengrin, tried VERY VERY hard to believe it as he was getting his throat ripped out, and now...well. It would be a a really great twist, but that's precisely because I don't think it's going to happen. |
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Post by faiiry on Feb 24, 2018 3:13:48 GMT
Personally, even if Coyote has been "killed," I don't think we've seen the last of him. Remember the vial of Coyote juice from And Then Coyote Said? I bet he will come back to life from that.
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Post by feraldog on Feb 24, 2018 6:48:44 GMT
I mean, there's legends where he came back from scattered ashes, legends where he came back from a fox helping him out, or even coming back from wherever he'd ever peed. So... is that part of his strength? Or is resilience a different power?
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Post by Zox Tomana on Feb 24, 2018 7:05:48 GMT
I still think the plan of "get away, and use a beacon to summon the Bip-mobile" is a valid one, especially while the danger is busy with its primary target. Main assumption here being that Annie and/or Smit have beacons to summon a protector. While the forest folk are animals, we shouldn't think of them as merely animals (like the Court tends to). There's a lot of animal posturing, but they are sentient beings, and more than "mere" animals. If Ys decides to put Annie in his sights, sticking with normal animal psychology is not sufficient to be relied upon. As mediums, they also have the responsibility to stay and try to defuse the situation. I do believe their duties as mediums are to represent their respective employers and defuse situations between the Court and Forest, rather than defuse a apparent coup. I would especially say it certainly ain't Andrew's job :V EDIT: sudden though about the current page. Ysengrin is in a bit of a roid rage right now, and Coyote figured this would happen, and the memories going back to Yssy are going to send him into shock. Coyote could then pop back up and laugh. |
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Post by keef on Feb 24, 2018 10:34:24 GMT
I mean, there's legends where he came back from scattered ashes, legends where he came back from a fox helping him out, or even coming back from wherever he'd ever peed. So... is that part of his strength? Or is resilience a different power? If the giggleblade stopped giggling, the vial of lake water lost it's colour, and the goose bone crumbled to dust, we would know for sure Coyote is Mortis Portalis Tackulatum. |
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Post by stevecharb on Feb 24, 2018 20:26:05 GMT
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Post by youwiththeface on Feb 24, 2018 22:44:28 GMT
So... I feel like we can make a couple assumptions here. -Ysengrin knew Coyote was stealing his memories -He's been biding his time until he can get them back -He's fairly pissed that Coyote manipulated him so much over the years I don't think we can assume any of that yet. It could just be that Coyote's strength has unlocked all of Ysengrin's buried resentment of Coyote's obvious and non-memory related mistreatment of him. Back in The Great Secret, even before Y goes on a rampage and Coyote steals that memory, Annie is scolding him for mistreating the wolf. Unless Coyote took the memory of every time he ever treated Ysengrin badly, there's bound to be memories of that that Ysengrin held onto. |
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Post by stevecharb on Feb 24, 2018 22:56:29 GMT
If coyote were truly dead, wouldn't his body revert to its original color? How can Coyote die, when he does not exist? (1068)
Coyote is a god/ethereal being and we have no reason to believe his body is governed by the same rules as a physical one. He may not need or even have vital organs.
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Post by jda on Feb 25, 2018 1:22:13 GMT
legends where coming back from wherever he'd ever peed. TThat's it. That is the Coyote water in a bottle meaning. Ps: please refer me to said legend |
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Post by phantaskippy on Feb 25, 2018 14:30:04 GMT
Ysengrim is a wolf. I think we forget that sometimes. Coyote was his Alpha, because Coyote was the strongest. Love, hate, it was all less important than the fact that Coyote was the strongest, he was a god.
But Ysengrim became the strongest. So he did what was proper, he killed the Alpha and became the Alpha. He continues to be a proper wolf.
I still think Coyote is using Ysengrim to awaken Annie to her real power. She's going to have to stop him at some point, especially if she wants to save him. I doubt anyone else can.
I also don't think Coyote's plans are very nuanced. More like: Annie needs to realize her true power. Let's make that happen. The chaos that comes with that plan and after, Coyote is cool with that too.
Also, Is there a pond and a bush in these photos, because this isn't the first time Coyote's been a dead duck. (or goose, whatever)
So was Coyote talking about Ysengrim when he said the moral was don't be a dead goose in a bush next to a lake, or foreshadowing himself?
I wonder if Ysengrim needed Coyote's strength to deal with his own memories, or if Coyote was just storing up a whole lot of crazy to unleash on a power mad Ysengrim to get him hyped enough to force Annie to really unleash her power.
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clover
Junior Member
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Post by clover on Feb 25, 2018 14:48:02 GMT
Ysengrim is a wolf. I think we forget that sometimes. Coyote was his Alpha, because Coyote was the strongest. Love, hate, it was all less important than the fact that Coyote was the strongest, he was a god. But Ysengrim became the strongest. So he did what was proper, he killed the Alpha and became the Alpha. He continues to be a proper wolf. I think it is worth noting here that actual wolves do not act like this or treat power dynamics like this. The "pack alpha" model for wolf social dynamics is irredeemably invalid, and all the related models for how wolves approach or view "strength" and "dominance" ... this including the dominance theories and 'alpha rolling' as they are commonly understood, have led to well over half a century of bad behavior and discipline models for domesticated dogs as well. This is further complicated by the notions of how dominance behaviors change when you're dealing with sapient intelligence rather than pack animals. Then again, creatures like Ysengrin are creations of myth and imagination. He may act that way because of how humans have imagined wolves must act and think, becoming an embodied creation of and then living the script of an entire myth about wolf behavior. |
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Post by saardvark on Feb 25, 2018 17:40:31 GMT
I think it is worth noting here that actual wolves do not act like this or treat power dynamics like this. The "pack alpha" model for wolf social dynamics is irredeemably invalid, and all the related models for how wolves approach or view "strength" and "dominance" ... this including the dominance theories and 'alpha rolling' as they are commonly understood, have led to well over half a century of bad behavior and discipline models for domesticated dogs as well. This is further complicated by the notions of how dominance behaviors change when you're dealing with sapient intelligence rather than pack animals. Thanks for that! I wasn't aware that the "pack alpha" model was based on captive wolf studies of (essentially) multiple mixed packs, rather than wild studies, and thus gave quite skewed and misleading results. Ya learn something new every day.... |
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Post by feraldog on Feb 25, 2018 18:02:29 GMT
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Post by keef on Feb 25, 2018 22:43:24 GMT
The "pack alpha" model for wolf social dynamics is irredeemably invalid, and all the related models for how wolves approach or view "strength" and "dominance" ... this including the dominance theories and 'alpha rolling' as they are commonly understood, have led to well over half a century of bad behavior and discipline models for domesticated dogs as well. When talking to other dog-owners, I've noticed this is still a very popular way to look at dog behaviour. And the fact that dogs are not wolfs. I guess dogs and humans evolved together for quite a while. Dogs are of course unthinkable without humans, but some of our behaviour may have been influenced by our relationship with dogs too. To quote myself: "A pet theory of mine is that in the Gunnerverse Ysengrin the wolf is shaped by medieval ideas about wolfs (cruel dumb violent) wile Renard in his wolf body gets his shape from modern ideas about wolfs (smart social beautiful)." If coyote were truly dead, wouldn't his body revert to its original color? How can Coyote die, when he does not exist? (1068) Coyote is a god/ethereal being and we have no reason to believe his body is governed by the same rules as a physical one. He may not need or even have vital organs. Correct, but actually we don't know if he really ever was a mangy dog in the desert, as he was already around when the stars were placed in the sky, so we don't know his original colour. I don't think he is dead, but on the other hand, if we see Muut appearing on the next page, Coyote has a serious problem. |
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Post by seawied on Feb 26, 2018 2:49:11 GMT
Obviously Coyote knows exactly what he's doing. I suspect he was stripping Ysengrin's mind until it was feeble enough to completely take over his body. There is evidence that supports this:
1) We know that Coyote has been messing with Ysengrin's mind for a VERY long time, but have never known the reason for it.
2) We know that Coyote rarely makes mistakes.
3) Ysengrin's mind is weakened each time Coyote toys with it.
4) Renard was given the power to take over another's body from Coyote. This means that Coyote likely has the same ability.
5) Although Coyote's body is destroyed, his mind/memories are shown to persist here.
6) It's not certain that a being powerful enough to touch the moon, and slice any material with his tooth can be killed.
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Post by TBeholder on Feb 26, 2018 6:50:11 GMT
Panels 1 & 2: Dumbest thing Carver has ever tried to do (so far). I notice that Smitty is nowhere to be seen on this page. Did he get the F out of dodge? It' not the best time for rhetorical questions, indeed. However, notice that she is eating the scenery with the best of them fairies now. I think it's possible that Ysengrin hasn't gone mad at all, but figured out at some point that Coyote had taken his memories and was only biding his time until he could take them back. Under that theory, it's also possible that Coyote can't be killed and Ysengrin knows that. His only target is the memories. Why not, indeed. Doesn't mean he isn't angry, however. Also, Coyote likes to set everything on the ears for giggles, so not giving him a reason to mess things up even more looks like a good idea, but doesn't mean there's no lasting resentment to be vented at a better time. The "pack alpha" model for wolf social dynamics is irredeemably invalid, and all the related models for how wolves approach or view "strength" and "dominance" ... this including the dominance theories and 'alpha rolling' as they are commonly understood, have led to well over half a century of bad behavior and discipline models for domesticated dogs as well. Thanks for that! I wasn't aware that the "pack alpha" model was based on captive wolf studies of (essentially) multiple mixed packs, rather than wild studies, and thus gave quite skewed and misleading results. Ya learn something new every day.... When talking to other dog-owners, I've noticed this is still a very popular way to look at dog behaviour. A family pack is also an extreme case: it's good when they can afford to run in pack as small or large as they like, but why would it remain unmixed when the pressure is high enough? Even cats can band together and cooperate when there's an obvious mutual benefit. And the people who kept large packs of dogs (to hunt or pull sleds) seem to have leaned (it's from second-hand accounts) to the opinion that you roll with naturally occurring pecking order (e.g. where places of dogs in the harness are concerned), or dogs will just get confused. It's more likely that most real cases (in the wild or in a domesticated pack) are defined by several mechanisms, rather than pure examples of any simple model. |
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Post by saardvark on Feb 26, 2018 10:32:37 GMT
A family pack is also an extreme case: it's good when they can afford to run in pack as small or large as they like, but why would it remain unmixed when the pressure is high enough? Even cats can band together and cooperate when there's an obvious mutual benefit. And the people who kept large packs of dogs (to hunt or pull sleds) seem to have leaned (it's from second-hand accounts) to the opinion that you roll with naturally occurring pecking order (e.g. where places of dogs in the harness are concerned), or dogs will just get confused. It's more likely that most real cases (in the wild or in a domesticated pack) are defined by several mechanisms, rather than pure examples of any simple model. True. Any simple model of complex behavior is usually missing something.... |
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clover
Junior Member
Posts: 79
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Post by clover on Feb 26, 2018 21:26:15 GMT
Some models of wolf behavior are much better and have much more to do with longitudinal study of wolf behavior in areas in which wolves have had a long-sustained natural habitation across generations. Some useful work in Wyoming, but I did not get to take part in any of it.
My own personal experience with wolves is limited to captive wolf packs of wolves that cannot be rehabilitated to the wild for various reasons, but in the case of the sanctuary I was in they have wide expanses to travel in and few of the pressures on the wolf groups that were studied in much more restrictive confinement. In those conditions, while still captive, they had completely lost any superficial 'alpha' or other assumed hierarchical behavior.
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Post by saardvark on Feb 27, 2018 3:16:06 GMT
Some models of wolf behavior are much better and have much more to do with longitudinal study of wolf behavior in areas in which wolves have had a long-sustained natural habitation across generations. Some useful work in Wyoming, but I did not get to take part in any of it. My own personal experience with wolves is limited to captive wolf packs of wolves that cannot be rehabilitated to the wild for various reasons, but in the case of the sanctuary I was in they have wide expanses to travel in and few of the pressures on the wolf groups that were studied in much more restrictive confinement. In those conditions, while still captive, they had completely lost any superficial 'alpha' or other assumed hierarchical behavior. you are a zoologist/animal biologist? how interesting! your avatar fits well.... |
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