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Post by faiiry on Nov 8, 2017 15:33:28 GMT
I watched 7 seasons of The Mentalist. I am closely familiar with man pain. The Mentalist?! Sweet Mercy... Is this a version of self-harming? Do we need to do an intervention? No, it's not, as I actually liked The Mentalist quite a bit, or else I wouldn't have watched it for 7 years. I put up with the copious amounts of man pain because of the dark humor and fun detective work, but oddly enough, it was only after the man pain ended that the show started to suck. Funny how life works! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ |
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Post by Deepbluediver on Nov 8, 2017 15:39:34 GMT
This would be kinda dark (not that the comic has been sunshine and rainbows lately anyway), but I'm wondering if Tony is wondering...if Annie isn't actually his kid.
Afterall, Surma started her relationship with him by cheating on her then-boyfriend, and we all know that Tony's got a weird sense of pride and doesn't respond the best emotionally to some issues, so I'm wondering if it's something that he'd never admit to questioning but eats up at him inside all the same.
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Post by youwiththeface on Nov 8, 2017 15:39:54 GMT
The term is used derogatorily because of essentially everything you just said: because the story of a man suffering from the woman he loved dying is ancient and has been told time and time again, and there are people who tune into media to watch guys kick ass and blow stuff up, not cry because of dead loves. People hate hearing about it. People also hate women crying over their dead beau, because we require our strong female characters to be strong in all situations and her being weepy and emotionally injured for protracted times she's being defined by a man and that isn't acceptable in this day and age. This day and age where it's totally not hypocritical to chastise stories for having macho men who feel nothing, meanwhile turning around and bitch-slapping stories for having lead males who privately deal with one trauma or another because "man pain." No, we need our male characters to be melodramatic, and open enough about their pain for someone to dive in and fix everything within 10 minutes, lest the story drag on before the next shenanigan. There was lots of sarcasm in that paragraph, btw. You're missing the point. The problem isn't that Tony is expressing angst or sadness about his dead wife. I, for one, would have absolutely no problem with that. It's that the story seems to be prioritizing his pain and suffering both over Surma's and Annie's pain and Annie's wellbeing as a daughter. It sucks that Tony's suffering because of what happened to Surma. But presumably he knew what he was getting into when the two decided to have a child, and he is far from the only one who was in pain because of Surma's death. He had a child who needed him, who he basically abandoned. And right now, we're getting chapter after chapter trying to explain to the reader what Tony feels and why he feels the way he does....and not very much about Annie's feelings, when she has just as much reason, if not more, to still be dealing with the grief of losing her mother, her whole life changing, and her having to deal with an emotionally inept father. |
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Post by faiiry on Nov 8, 2017 15:42:51 GMT
The term is used derogatorily because of essentially everything you just said: because the story of a man suffering from the woman he loved dying is ancient and has been told time and time again, and there are people who tune into media to watch guys kick ass and blow stuff up, not cry because of dead loves. People hate hearing about it. People also hate women crying over their dead beau, because we require our strong female characters to be strong in all situations and her being weepy and emotionally injured for protracted times she's being defined by a man and that isn't acceptable in this day and age. This day and age where it's totally not hypocritical to chastise stories for having macho men who feel nothing, meanwhile turning around and bitch-slapping stories for having lead males who privately deal with one trauma or another because "man pain." No, we need our male characters to be melodramatic, and open enough about their pain for someone to dive in and fix everything within 10 minutes, lest the story drag on before the next shenanigan. There was lots of sarcasm in that paragraph, btw. You're missing the point. The problem isn't that Tony is expressing angst or sadness about his dead wife. I, for one, would have absolutely no problem with that. It's that the story seems to be prioritizing his pain and suffering both over Surma's and Annie's pain and Annie's wellbeing as a daughter. It sucks that Tony's suffering because of what happened to Surma. But presumably he knew what he was getting into when the two decided to have a child, and he is far from the only one who was in pain because of Surma's death. He had a child who needed him, who he basically abandoned. And right now, we're getting chapter after chapter trying to explain to the reader what Tony feels and why he feels the way he does....and not very much about Annie's feelings, when she has just as much reason, if not more, to still be dealing with the grief of losing her mother, her whole life changing, and her having to deal with an emotionally inept father. Thank you. You really accurately summed up what I have been trying to say. (I'm not great at being concise!) |
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Post by faiiry on Nov 8, 2017 15:46:41 GMT
certain parts of the internet will be okay with that last one, and would be okay with this trope entirely if guy had lost a boyfriend instead of a girlfriend, totally ignoring that it's the same story, just with a minor adjustment, but that's somehow supposed to make everything A-OK and new and shiny and wonderful! I don't think you belong to those parts of the internet, Nope, I totally do. The whole point of man pain/mangst is that it prioritizes a male character's brooding and suffering over the female characters' experiences. If Tony had lost his husband and was being emotionally distant to his son, there would be no "man pain." There would just be Tony Pain. Which would be almost equally annoying, but not exactly the same thing. |
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arzeik
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Post by arzeik on Nov 8, 2017 15:48:52 GMT
Yes, take 27502 random mini stories (which is the number of tropes there are currently on that site) and you will probably find some kind resemblance to everything that has happened throughout my life (I guess it's underwhelming?), let alone a comic with less than 2000 pages. What I mean is I don't have a great opinion of that webpage. Sorry, I don't understand what you're trying to say. Classifying plot devices is bad? Plot devices are bad? Plot devices are good but classifying them implies that they're bad? Could you please clarify? I'm not saying it's good or bad, nor is it my intent. I'm just talking about a personal feeling that arises anytime someone takes a somewhat complex story (or its characters) and reduces it to a set of clichés. It's kind of irrational, I guess, but a huge database of tropes that kills off the details of each particular story, created by the author with a considerable creative effort and which is in my opinion somthing unique, for the purpose of unifying them under a label, is something that goes against what I find interesting in literature, or art for that purpose (variety, complexity, uniqueness). I'm not saying it's not useful, or that you shouldn't like it or anything like that (sorry if that's what it sounded like). It's just that I personally find that the base idea is to over-simplify something rich and complex and I kind of dislike that. I hope I clarified it a bit, but given that English is not my mother tongue, I could as well have done the opposite. |
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Post by Nepycros on Nov 8, 2017 15:50:08 GMT
I'm still confused, then. We're looking at Tony's pain through Annie's eyes, and she's experiencing character development as a result. Is Tony being a deadbeat loser dad with angst issues really such an annoyance that we wanna shuffle along past it and get back to Annie (which we're still on Annie, by the way, even if other people wanna try and convince you otherwise). Tony didn't become the main character. We got an introduction of his character, how he introduces conflict into Annie's life, how she copes with that, and then her instigating a flashback by accusing her own father of being a psychopath.
How should this story have been written, then? Should we only get fleeting glimpses of Tony's grief while he puts up a stoic exterior? Oh wait, he does do that, it's just that for a change we're actually not going to continue getting parcels of his backstory. Now we have all the info we need to progress the plot and overcome Annie's conflict with her father. Was it not worth the wait? According to people on this forum, apparently.
Maybe we should just IV drip the angst again in the future. I don't recall people whining about Zimmy being an angst-machine.
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Post by fia on Nov 8, 2017 15:52:32 GMT
Dear pals, and I am saying this with love, I like the forums better when we don't all dissolve into arguing about whether the comic (or a certain plotline) is good or not. It's okay to have discontents, but some of us keep coming back over and over to push the point one way or another. This is a gentle plea to tone it down.
I am working on the following assumptions:
(a) Liking or not liking a comic is a matter of taste, and reasonable people might disagree (for instance I am a fan of the Tony plotline, but I know some are not, and both are okay);
(b) if you are spending enough time on this that you're going into the forums to comment, then you like the comic overall and are invested in it and to some degree enjoy Tom's writing. If you stop enjoying the comic, and find yourself angry over it, you ought to feel free to stop reading it, or take some time off and come back to it when you find it enjoyable again. No one will judge that. Of course if it's an occasional hiccup, or you feel emotionally hurt by the writing, criticize away. Just consider that we overall are nice people who share a love of the comic but may have different tastes for certain plot-lines or bits of writing, there's no point in starting battles over that or turning to belittling behavior.
(c) dear readers, this continues to be a work of fiction,
And (d): we are not the writers of the content, merely the consumers of the content, and if you would have strongly preferred the content to go a different way, you can always write your own fan-comic or original comic to share it with others who feel similarly. I know I would enjoy reading fan comics!
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Post by Nepycros on Nov 8, 2017 15:54:04 GMT
certain parts of the internet will be okay with that last one, and would be okay with this trope entirely if guy had lost a boyfriend instead of a girlfriend, totally ignoring that it's the same story, just with a minor adjustment, but that's somehow supposed to make everything A-OK and new and shiny and wonderful! I don't think you belong to those parts of the internet, Nope, I totally do. The whole point of man pain/mangst is that it prioritizes a male character's brooding and suffering over the female characters' experiences. If Tony had lost his husband and was being emotionally distant to his son, there would be no "man pain." There would just be Tony Pain. Which would be almost equally annoying, but not exactly the same thing. And there it is. Where people impose standards on literature where certain gendered characters apparently should not be allowed to exist in a certain dynamic with other gendered characters. Because patriarchy, I presume? |
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Post by darlos9d on Nov 8, 2017 15:55:48 GMT
Maybe Tony doesn't want to get close to Annie because he's going to out live her. ... if she has a kid. But yeah, that's actually pretty damn believable motive, him just expecting her to up and die one day and there being nothing he can do about it, so he distances himself. It'd explain his actions too, where he's distant, but at the same time seems to want to "cure" her. Its like he wants a good relationship but doesn't want to risk it until he's sure she's free of a terminal case of fire elemental. You might have hit the nail on the head. It makes a lot more sense than just some vague association with or resentment over Surma. |
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Post by faiiry on Nov 8, 2017 15:57:04 GMT
Nope, I totally do. The whole point of man pain/mangst is that it prioritizes a male character's brooding and suffering over the female characters' experiences. If Tony had lost his husband and was being emotionally distant to his son, there would be no "man pain." There would just be Tony Pain. Which would be almost equally annoying, but not exactly the same thing. And there it is. Where people impose standards on literature where certain gendered characters apparently should not be allowed to exist in a certain dynamic with other gendered characters. Because patriarchy, I presume? When the hell is that what I said?? Because I said that the whole point of "man pain" in the context of Gunnerkrigg Court is that it belittles the protagonist Antimony's experiences in favor of her brooding dad's, you're accusing me of not wanting men to exist in fiction?? That is an insane reach if I have ever heard one. By the way, I do not think Tom, the author, is being intentionally sexist. I think the trope is sexist, but I also think it has been ingrained into pop culture to the extent where people utilize it without realizing its connotations. |
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Post by fia on Nov 8, 2017 16:04:31 GMT
certain parts of the internet will be okay with that last one, and would be okay with this trope entirely if guy had lost a boyfriend instead of a girlfriend, totally ignoring that it's the same story, just with a minor adjustment, but that's somehow supposed to make everything A-OK and new and shiny and wonderful! I don't think you belong to those parts of the internet, Nope, I totally do. The whole point of man pain/mangst is that it prioritizes a male character's brooding and suffering over the female characters' experiences. If Tony had lost his husband and was being emotionally distant to his son, there would be no "man pain." There would just be Tony Pain. Which would be almost equally annoying, but not exactly the same thing. I am a committed card-carrying feminist, but I am not sure I see what you're seeing. We're learning about Tony because he is Annie's dad, and Annie is the main character. She's shown on the majority of the comic's pages and she is frequently shown having emotions, as she is on today's page. She also wants to know what the heck Tony's emotions are because she can't parse them by herself. But presumably we know how Annie feels: somewhat angry still, a lot of pain, some sense of abandonment, a healthy amount of confusion, but also attachment (of the disordered kind, surely) and love. She wants her dad to love her and be there for her, and doesn't understand why he's not. Right now she's evidently grappling with feeling intensely neglected and perhaps unloved; but she has testimonial evidence of his love of her, so how is she meant to reconcile that? We as readers are grappling with her same issues. There is no way the comic is biasing us to see only Tony's side. If that were true, few of us would resent Tony on Annie's behalf, but many of us do (and I include myself, who loves the Tony character in part because he's believable, not because he's a paragon of virtue). |
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Post by faiiry on Nov 8, 2017 16:09:29 GMT
Nope, I totally do. The whole point of man pain/mangst is that it prioritizes a male character's brooding and suffering over the female characters' experiences. If Tony had lost his husband and was being emotionally distant to his son, there would be no "man pain." There would just be Tony Pain. Which would be almost equally annoying, but not exactly the same thing. I am a committed card-carrying feminist, but I am not sure I see what you're seeing. We're learning about Tony because he is Annie's dad, and Annie is the main character. She's shown on the majority of the comic's pages and she is frequently shown having emotions, as she is on today's page. She also wants to know what the heck Tony's emotions are because she can't parse them by herself. But presumably we know how Annie feels: somewhat angry still, a lot of pain, some sense of abandonment, a healthy amount of confusion, but also attachment (of the disordered kind, surely) and love. She wants her dad to love her and be there for her, and doesn't understand why he's not. Right now she's evidently grappling with feeling intensely neglected and perhaps unloved; but she has testimonial evidence of his love of her, so how is she meant to reconcile that? We as readers are grappling with her same issues. There is no way the comic is biasing us to see only Tony's side. If that were true, few of us would resent Tony on Annie's behalf, but many of us do (and I include myself, who loves the Tony character in part because he's believable, not because he's a paragon of virtue). A lot about the comic is revealed by your words when you refer to Annie's thoughts and feelings. "Presumably." "Evidently." We know what Tony's thinking. We've been given whole chapters and flashbacks dedicated to him. Annie? Not so much. That's my whole point. |
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Post by faiiry on Nov 8, 2017 16:12:33 GMT
I don't think the issue of man pain is a feminist or anti-feminist thing. It relates to gender, sure. But I'm just as annoyed by common female tropes as I am by the idea of mangst. Mangst just happens to be an issue of men being prioritized over women. If there were such a thing as womangst where women and their brooding emoness were being prioritized over men's stories in every facet of pop culture, I would be just as annoyed by it. But unfortunately, I have not observed the existence of womangst. Just mangst.
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Post by Druplesnubb on Nov 8, 2017 16:24:55 GMT
First of all, the comic has not been revolving about Tony in any way. This Chapter is the first to have focused on him in a major capacity since Chapter 53 (chapter 55 was a one-page joke chapter and 54 only featured Tony for the first few pages. You know what has been a bigger focus for the last three years? In both Chapter 51, 52, 53, 54, 57 (and to a smaller extent Chapter 63)? Annie's feelings towards Tony. Annie dealing with Tony's return has been a major focus ever since he first appeared (not the major focus, since everything about Tony's return took was pushed to the wayside between Chapter 57 and the end of Chapter 63). When we do get a Chapter focusing on Tony's backstory, like Chapter 53 and 64, it's always framed through Annie's need to deal with her father's return and other characters' attempts to help her contextualise what has happened.
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Post by youwiththeface on Nov 8, 2017 16:28:59 GMT
Nope, I totally do. The whole point of man pain/mangst is that it prioritizes a male character's brooding and suffering over the female characters' experiences. If Tony had lost his husband and was being emotionally distant to his son, there would be no "man pain." There would just be Tony Pain. Which would be almost equally annoying, but not exactly the same thing. I am a committed card-carrying feminist, but I am not sure I see what you're seeing. We're learning about Tony because he is Annie's dad, and Annie is the main character. She's shown on the majority of the comic's pages and she is frequently shown having emotions, as she is on today's page. She also wants to know what the heck Tony's emotions are because she can't parse them by herself. We've seen both Donny (in Annie and the Fire) and Anja now in this chapter try to brush off how lousy of a person Tony is because of his issues. They both show that there's more to Tony than what Annie can see, as if that makes what he's like when he's just around Annie go away. At the same time, we've seen Red take Annie to task (arguably pretty brutally) for endangering a fellow student, which is....more or less what Tony did to Annie, even if he didn't know what he was doing at the time, (though if he was really researching Surma's condition, you'd think he would) and that just looks weird, especially since Annie and her friends making a mistake like that is more understandable given their age. Main character or not, the attention given to Annie and the leeway she's been given for her mistakes has been pretty lopsided between her and Tony for a while now. Which is especially jarring given the fact that she's a child and he's a grown ass man. By contrast, look at Reynard, what he had to say about his past sins in Quicksilver, and how he acts around Annie despite his guilt. He's there for Annie, more than her own father, even though he has just as much reason to have a hard time being around her as Tony does. That tells me the fault lies with Tony, but so far the narrative seems to be doing a poor job of reflecting that. It could be this is all a set up for when it becomes clear to Annie how much her father is actually worth to her, but if that's coming until then we can't know if Tom is playing this trope straight or setting it up for a subversion or a deconstruction. |
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Post by Druplesnubb on Nov 8, 2017 16:31:35 GMT
We've seen both Donny (in Annie and the Fire) and Anja now in this chapter try to brush off how lousy of a person Tony is because of his issues. They both show that there's more to Tony than what Annie can see, as if that makes what he's like when he's just around Annie go away. |
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Post by wombat on Nov 8, 2017 16:32:43 GMT
For those who have been enjoying the comic less as of late (so, mainly referring to faiiry), have you considered disengaging some from the forum? I mean, don't get me wrong, you should have every right to continue being part of the forum if you want. And the forum can add elements to the story that make it more interesting, so if you feel it enhances your experience, then by all means, carry on. I personally feel, however, that sometimes engaging deeply with the forum detracts from my enjoyment of the comic, and so I like to take breaks, only skimming the threads for periods of times and only posting occasionally. It helps me enjoy the comic more for what it is, and also, I think, helps lessen the pressure on any given page. If each page is something that has to be discussed (sometimes to death), there becomes a lot of importance given to each update, when sometimes it might be better to let an update just exist as a page in a story.
I still love GKC, though it has changed over the years. But I've been following it since it was in chapter 18 (holy crud), so I'm pretty invested by this point. And while I love both fun aspects of fandom and analyzing texts, it's often more important for me to continue my enjoyment of this text that was in many ways my intro to webcomics. For other people enjoyment might look different, or it might be differently prioritized, but if you're not experiencing this comic in a way you find beneficial, that might be something to consider.
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Post by nero on Nov 8, 2017 16:33:36 GMT
It seems Annie will need some help in getting to have a meaningful conversation with Anthony. I want to see Anthony apologize directly to Annie for hurting her accidentally with the bone antenna, and for abandoning her. Without her parents she had to grow quite a bit and sometimes not in the best of ways. I feel that her question this page involves more than just Anthony seeing her mother's face. He returned only when the Court threatened him with Annie's banishment. I wonder if it really stops at just banishment with the Court. Anthony knows the most of what the Court is capable of and reacts quickly to their orders. And worst of all if the Court hadn't forced him to return, if Donnie hadn't brought Annie's blinker stone with him, when would Annie learn what her father had been doing all this time? When would he admit his failures to her?
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Post by Druplesnubb on Nov 8, 2017 16:34:49 GMT
I don't think the issue of man pain is a feminist or anti-feminist thing. It relates to gender, sure. But I'm just as annoyed by common female tropes as I am by the idea of mangst. Mangst just happens to be an issue of men being prioritized over women. If there were such a thing as womangst where women and their brooding emoness were being prioritized over men's stories in every facet of pop culture, I would be just as annoyed by it. But unfortunately, I have not observed the existence of womangst. Just mangst. We have been shown Annie's feelings about all this pretty extensively. Just through her actions and reactions rather than words. hence the word "evidently", because the comic has a shitload of evidence for how she feels. |
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Post by faiiry on Nov 8, 2017 16:35:19 GMT
For those who have been enjoying the comic less as of late (so, mainly referring to faiiry), have you considered disengaging some from the forum? I mean, don't get me wrong, you should have every right to continue being part of the forum if you want. And the forum can add elements to the story that make it more interesting, so if you feel it enhances your experience, then by all means, carry on. I personally feel, however, that sometimes engaging deeply with the forum detracts from my enjoyment of the comic, and so I like to take breaks, only skimming the threads for periods of times and only posting occasionally. It helps me enjoy the comic more for what it is, and also, I think, helps lessen the pressure on any given page. If each page is something that has to be discussed (sometimes to death), there becomes a lot of importance given to each update, when sometimes it might be better to let an update just exist as a page in a story. I still love GKC, though it has changed over the years. But I've been following it since it was in chapter 18 (holy crud), so I'm pretty invested by this point. And while I love both fun aspects of fandom and analyzing texts, it's often more important for me to continue my enjoyment of this text that was in many ways my intro to webcomics. For other people enjoyment might look different, or it might be differently prioritized, but if you're not experiencing this comic in a way you find beneficial, that might be something to consider. I want to make something clear: the comic has been disappointing me and I am not happy with its trajectory, but I am not at the point where I would give it up. I do not think any of the issues that I have raised are some kind of comic-ruining plague. GKC is still leaps and bounds ahead of most other webcomics out there in terms of characterization, complexity, storytelling, art and symbolism, among other things. I have a few qualms about the way the comic has been going, but I will reiterate: by no means do I think it’s bad. Just maybe not as good. And I’m not even CLOSE to giving it up. I really like following every page as they come out and discussing them with you guys. Even when I have criticisms about the comic, it's kind of fun to talk about and discuss the things I don't love. And plus, I always have hope that things will improve. There is always a new chapter around the corner. |
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Post by wombat on Nov 8, 2017 16:41:16 GMT
For those who have been enjoying the comic less as of late (so, mainly referring to faiiry), have you considered disengaging some from the forum? I mean, don't get me wrong, you should have every right to continue being part of the forum if you want. And the forum can add elements to the story that make it more interesting, so if you feel it enhances your experience, then by all means, carry on. I personally feel, however, that sometimes engaging deeply with the forum detracts from my enjoyment of the comic, and so I like to take breaks, only skimming the threads for periods of times and only posting occasionally. It helps me enjoy the comic more for what it is, and also, I think, helps lessen the pressure on any given page. If each page is something that has to be discussed (sometimes to death), there becomes a lot of importance given to each update, when sometimes it might be better to let an update just exist as a page in a story. I still love GKC, though it has changed over the years. But I've been following it since it was in chapter 18 (holy crud), so I'm pretty invested by this point. And while I love both fun aspects of fandom and analyzing texts, it's often more important for me to continue my enjoyment of this text that was in many ways my intro to webcomics. For other people enjoyment might look different, or it might be differently prioritized, but if you're not experiencing this comic in a way you find beneficial, that might be something to consider. I want to make something clear: the comic has been disappointing me and I am not happy with its trajectory, but I am not at the point where I would give it up. I do not think any of the issues that I have raised are some kind of comic-ruining plague. GKC is still leaps and bounds ahead of most other webcomics out there in terms of characterization, complexity, storytelling, art and symbolism, among other things. I have a few qualms about the way the comic has been going, but I will reiterate: by no means do I think it’s bad. Just maybe not as good. And I’m not even CLOSE to giving it up. I really like following every page as they come out and discussing them with you guys. Even when I have criticisms about the comic, it's kind of fun to talk about and discuss the things I don't love. And plus, I always have hope that things will improve. There is always a new chapter around the corner. I wasn't suggesting you give the comic up as much as limiting participation in the forum at times to see how that might impact your enjoyment of the comic. But if you like the discussions your having in the forum and feel they contribute to your experience of the comic, then by all means continue! For me, the forums here don't always have that effect, bu that can be different for everyone. |
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Post by Zox Tomana on Nov 8, 2017 16:42:08 GMT
And there it is. Where people impose standards on literature where certain gendered characters apparently should not be allowed to exist in a certain dynamic with other gendered characters. Because patriarchy, I presume? When the hell is that what I said?? Because I said that the whole point of "man pain" in the context of Gunnerkrigg Court is that it belittles the protagonist Antimony's experiences in favor of her brooding dad's, you're accusing me of not wanting men to exist in fiction?? That is an insane reach if I have ever heard one. By the way, I do not think Tom, the author, is being intentionally sexist. I think the trope is sexist, but I also think it has been ingrained into pop culture to the extent where people utilize it without realizing its connotations. Read their whole comment. They did not in any way suggest you want men to not exist in fiction. The very, very explicitly made a comment about your opinions regarding character dynamics you have expressed a dislike for. Check your assumptions before you accuse others of "insane reach." |
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Post by faiiry on Nov 8, 2017 16:44:41 GMT
I don't think the issue of man pain is a feminist or anti-feminist thing. It relates to gender, sure. But I'm just as annoyed by common female tropes as I am by the idea of mangst. Mangst just happens to be an issue of men being prioritized over women. If there were such a thing as womangst where women and their brooding emoness were being prioritized over men's stories in every facet of pop culture, I would be just as annoyed by it. But unfortunately, I have not observed the existence of womangst. Just mangst. We have been shown Annie's feelings about all this pretty extensively. Just through her actions and reactions rather than words. hence the word "evidently", because the comic has a shitload of evidence for how she feels. I don't totally agree. Tony got a few chapters about his feelings and emotions, and we know he feels frustrated that he couldn't save Surma, tortured because Annie reminds him of Surma, and guilty that he treated Annie like rubbish (as he damn well should be). As for Annie, pretty much the only two emotions that have been vaguely implied from her are anger ( he made me take my makeup off; I can't deal with you right now) and forced indifference ( he had his reasons; Eggers should mind his own business). I don't think that Annie's actions and reactions give a lot of evidence about her emotions, which are undoubtedly extremely complex. Tony got a chapter in which his feelings on the matter were spelled out. The more I think about it, the more I would like to see the same thing for Annie - a chapter in which she talks to someone about her emotions and reveals exactly how she feels about Tony, instead of just hints. Also, even when Annie DOES talk about her feelings, it's a weirdly simplified version of events, as though she can't vocalize what she feels. The first thing she brings up is " He made me take my makeup off," and then she mentions his disappointment in her cheating. As though the fact that he abandoned her for years and then showed up and treated her like any other naughty student and humiliated her in front of everyone and made her move into a separate dorm and repeat a grade and say goodbye to all her friends wasn't important? The first thing she mentions is her makeup? I don't get it. |
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Post by faiiry on Nov 8, 2017 16:51:51 GMT
When the hell is that what I said?? Because I said that the whole point of "man pain" in the context of Gunnerkrigg Court is that it belittles the protagonist Antimony's experiences in favor of her brooding dad's, you're accusing me of not wanting men to exist in fiction?? That is an insane reach if I have ever heard one. By the way, I do not think Tom, the author, is being intentionally sexist. I think the trope is sexist, but I also think it has been ingrained into pop culture to the extent where people utilize it without realizing its connotations. Read their whole comment. They did not in any way suggest you want men to not exist in fiction. The very, very explicitly made a comment about your opinions regarding character dynamics you have expressed a dislike for. Check your assumptions before you accuse others of "insane reach." It is not clear to me that this was that person's meaning, but whatever. If their meaning was truly that I'm suggesting certain character dynamics aren't allowed....yup. That's what I'm suggesting. Old, tired, overused, boring character dynamics are not allowed in my perfect heavenly world of fiction that exists only in my head. |
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Post by todd on Nov 8, 2017 16:59:32 GMT
Maybe Tom just needs to take a longer break from "Gunnerkrigg Court" than the usual "two-week City Face hiatus", work on something else (in a different genre) for a while, and return to the story refreshed?
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Post by youwiththeface on Nov 8, 2017 17:00:54 GMT
We've seen both Donny (in Annie and the Fire) and Anja now in this chapter try to brush off how lousy of a person Tony is because of his issues. They both show that there's more to Tony than what Annie can see, as if that makes what he's like when he's just around Annie go away. How about 'despite what the characters claim, we've now gotten two whole chapters devoted to Tony to try to play off his treatment of Antimony like it's only a part of his personality and thereby not something she should be that troubled by'? The characters may say something like that, but the narrative seems to be saying something else. I mean, hell, haven't you ever read one of those uber religious marty stu Left Behind stories that spend ages telling us how great a character is but the actual things they do in the story don't match up? Anyone here ever been exposed to Twilight or 50 Shades of Grey? Yeah. For those who have been enjoying the comic less as of late (so, mainly referring to faiiry), have you considered disengaging some from the forum? I mean, don't get me wrong, you should have every right to continue being part of the forum if you want. And the forum can add elements to the story that make it more interesting, so if you feel it enhances your experience, then by all means, carry on. I personally feel, however, that sometimes engaging deeply with the forum detracts from my enjoyment of the comic, and so I like to take breaks, only skimming the threads for periods of times and only posting occasionally. It helps me enjoy the comic more for what it is, and also, I think, helps lessen the pressure on any given page. If each page is something that has to be discussed (sometimes to death), there becomes a lot of importance given to each update, when sometimes it might be better to let an update just exist as a page in a story. Why? If you're thinking this kind of thing upsets me, or I make my arguments in anger then I have to correct you. I love talking about these kind of things. I love dissecting a story, looking for hidden meanings or foreshadowing or what have you. And some times when you dissect something, you come across some bad things, like the evidence of cancer or tumors, or even just something like a cold. That kind of thing doesn't dispirit me; it's part of the process, it helps me understand how a story is written and the pitfalls that story writers can fall into. Studying things like that helps me learn how said pitfalls can be avoided, and to appreciate authors who know how to avoid them all the more. I live for this shit. All of it, the good and bad. |
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Post by wombat on Nov 8, 2017 17:20:43 GMT
Why? If you're thinking this kind of thing upsets me, or I make my arguments in anger then I have to correct you. I love talking about these kind of things. I love dissecting a story, looking for hidden meanings or foreshadowing or what have you. And some times when you dissect something, you come across some bad things, like the evidence of cancer or tumors, or even just something like a cold. That kind of thing doesn't dispirit me; it's part of the process, it helps me understand how a story is written and the pitfalls that story writers can fall into. Studying things like that helps me learn how said pitfalls can be avoided, and to appreciate authors who know how to avoid them all the more. I live for this shit. All of it, the good and bad. I honestly wasn't really addressing you as much, nor have I been reading your comments, so I really have no assumptions about you for you to correct. I love dissecting a story too, but I don't always engaging in that particular way with this particular story on this particular forum. Anyway, like I've said, absolutely continue engaging in the way you have been if it enhances your experience. I was simply expressing an approach that has helped me enjoy the comic more, should anyone else want to consider it. |
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Post by Zox Tomana on Nov 8, 2017 17:52:11 GMT
How about 'despite what the characters claim, we've now gotten two whole chapters devoted to Tony to try to play off his treatment of Antimony like it's only a part of his personality and thereby not something she should be that troubled by'? The characters may say something like that, but the narrative seems to be saying something else. I wouldn't say these two chapters have been about "playing off" Tony's treatment of Annie. So far, the only character to make excuses and downplay Tony's treatment of Annie... is Annie. The chapter linked and this chapter are experiences and stories for Annie to get to see and hear about a part of her father that she doesn't see. Ultimately, all this Tony backstory is for the benefit of Annie's character, not Tony. What is part of Tony's personality is his stone-faced-ness. What is also part of his personality is being open and emotive around singular persons. These chapters (and Donny's story about Brinnie) illustrate that, and thus make Annie aware that, no... her dad isn't being manipulative, he didn't brainwash anyone, there really is a legitimately likable person behind her father's mask, and that for some reason she isn't privy to this part of his personality. I would argue this should have come to a head way back in the linked chapter.... but that was when Annie was deep into her cut-off-emotions arc. There's a lot we know. A there's a lot we know that Annie doesn't. You know, that might be the actual problem with this chapter. Ultimately, while it's good to have gotten this backstory, it is ultimately unnecessary to tell it in this particular context. Annie already has two previous data points telling her that her father isn't a robot, really, and her confrontation with seeing him and Kat working and laguhing together should have prompted an explanation from Kat--something brief like, "some folks from the Court brought him here because he wanted in on my work, and... he really surprised me. I'm still mad over what he's put you through, but he's super different when he's alone. Why haven't you told me he's like this?", cueing Annie's response, "But... he isn't like that around me...." and Tom could throw up callbacks to those other chapters. BAM. Question raised, with ZERO backstory told. Story proceeds directly to Annie confronting her father, and then we could get the backstory from her asking him about how he and Surma fell in love. Although really that would preferably come after a good chunk of chapter about how he's been handling this whole debacle internally. |
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Post by lunaleaf on Nov 8, 2017 17:59:29 GMT
Annie and the Fire indicates that he doesn't, but the look he gave on page 813 looks like nothing more than resentment, and Surma's comment indicates that he does resent her somewhat. It's possible that he resents his choice to have children with Surma because it ended up killing her, but I don't know that he necessarily resents Annie as a person. It's probably a pretty complex cocktail of emotions. He's been pretty neglectful of his parental responsibilities, but I don't know if this type of situation can be boiled down to a black-and-white answer without losing the bigger picture. EDIT: Regarding the rest of this thread, I much prefer to see the story for myself. I don't want to be told that someone is sad when their images and dialogue can be used to much greater affect. If the story can show me what's happening and adjust the dialogue to match it, I can infer for myself what the characters are feeling and that empathy for them gets me involved with the story in a way I wasn't before. We see glimpses of other characters' lives because it gives context to who they are and how they're involved in the greater story. There are many perspectives to a story, and not a single one of them could compose the truth on their own; that's why we see and make an effort to understand more than just Annie. Annie's story is interesting, but it's worth so much more when we understand the perspectives around her. |
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