[1905] You're proof of their love.

[Nepycros]

In which Annie makes the best face.

[Nepycros]

Here, have some cool beans.

[Blitz]

Yeah it's kind of awkward when someone talks about your parents as not your parents, but as lovers.

[snowflake]

I'm amazed by how "Annie's mum cheated on uncle Jimmy" sounds miles worse than "Surma cheated on James".

EDIT: also, the American spelling ("mom" rather than "mum")? What gives?

[theonethatgotaway]

Well, these truth beans sure have cooled some jets.

[speedwell]

Nov 3, 2017 8:18:32 GMT snowflake said:

I'm amazed by how "Annie's mum cheated on uncle Jimmy" sounds miles worse than "Surma cheated on James".

EDIT: also, the American spelling ("mom" rather than "mum")? What gives?

As an American expat who lives in Ireland and works with British-born people, I see the kids using "mom" a lot more than they used to. My Irish mother-in-law says she thinks it's due to American TV.

[philman]

Annie doesn't seem too convinced in that last panel. And she looks almost ashamed in the second panel.

I wonder if she is going to go visit Jimmy Jims herself after this, to get his side of the story. And some information on how her mum was before she hooked up with Tony.

Nov 3, 2017 8:18:32 GMT snowflake said:

EDIT: also, the American spelling ("mom" rather than "mum")? What gives?

Huh, I missed that somehow and I'm british. Maybe Tom has been spending more time in the US recently?

[rafk]

Nov 3, 2017 8:18:32 GMT snowflake said:

I'm amazed by how "Annie's mum cheated on uncle Jimmy" sounds miles worse than "Surma cheated on James".

The family terms make it sound personal. Surma and James could be contestants on Love Island, mum and uncle Jimmy are people you know.

[imaginaryfriend]

Antimony is also proof that her mum cheated on Uncle Jimmy, thus things with him are a bit awkward.

[aline]

I'm cool with saying to Annie "You were born out of love", less cool with "Your existence is proof of their love". Having kids is proof of a number of things, love is not actually one of them.

I liked Anja's "Yes but it's not the point". Yes. Thank you. I think we should all probably reflect on how much time we spend morally judging the characters vs. time we spend paying attention to the actual story. Myself included!

[speedwell]

Nov 3, 2017 8:48:32 GMT aline said:

I'm cool with saying to Annie "You were born out of love", less cool with "Your existence is proof of their love". Having kids is proof of a number of things, love is not actually one of them.

I came here to say this, actually. How sad we become in middle age when we have the perspective of years.

Properly speaking, though (if anyone reading this is inclined to accept a word of advice), having children is not proof of how bonded you are as a couple. Ideally it should be proof that you want to love children together. It's about "raising a family" if anything. But mostly you choose to have children because having children is a thing you want, and then after that you love your children as people in their own right.

[snowflake]

The real point is that Anthony isn't some uniformly asocial monster: he can be open and likeable... around people who aren't Annie. This is actually worse for Annie than her mind-control hypothesis.

[spritznar]

i kind of thought the "proof of their love" comment was more specific to annie and the whole fire spirit thing... maybe i'm just reading too much into it

[aline]

Nov 3, 2017 9:36:01 GMT spritznar said:

i kind of thought the "proof of their love" comment was more specific to annie and the whole fire spirit thing... maybe i'm just reading too much into it

I think she's saying that the decision to have a kid together was a thing that Surma and Tony could only do because they loved each other very much, among others because of the special circumstances of fire elemental reproduction.

That assumes a lot of things, like "it was a mutual decision", and "these two people with their personality wouldn't have taken that decision without the condition of love" and so on. I get what the meaning behind it is, but it still bugs me for two reasons:
- the word "proof" is a very strong one and as an engineer I put a lot of weight on it
- the idea that a child is the demonstration of the parents' love is a very common trope and is harmful

[off topic]
Disclaimer: I'm a mother of two younglings in a happy relationship with said kids' father.

That said, I entirely agree with speedwell on the matter. And no matter what you do, people-who-are-not-yet-parents, never ever ever do kids to prove your love, deepen your bonding to your partner, or fix your relationship in any way. Having kids won't do any of these things. Don't expect your partner to change his/her ways just because kids are now around, either. It's like with getting married. Mostly people stay who they were before.

Also, sad truth that I'm just throwing around in case anybody around should ever need it: if your partner is abusive, having kids never makes it better. Usually they'll get worse. If you're lucky they'll stay the same. There are actual studies on the subject. In fact it's startling how often physical abuse patterns start or escalate when one partner gets pregnant.
[/off topic]

[Tenjen]

Nov 3, 2017 7:03:02 GMT Nepycros said:

Here, have some cool beans.

awkwardness abound

Nov 3, 2017 10:14:07 GMT aline said:

Nov 3, 2017 9:36:01 GMT spritznar said:

i kind of thought the "proof of their love" comment was more specific to annie and the whole fire spirit thing... maybe i'm just reading too much into it

I think she's saying that the decision to have a kid together was a thing that Surma and Tony could only do because they loved each other very much, among others because of the special circumstances of fire elemental reproduction.

That assumes a lot of things, like "it was a mutual decision", and "these two people with their personality wouldn't have taken that decision without the condition of love" and so on. I get what the meaning behind it is, but it still bugs me for two reasons:
- the word "proof" is a very strong one and as an engineer I put a lot of weight on it
- the idea that a child is the demonstration of the parents' love is a very common trope and is harmful

[off topic]
Disclaimer: I'm a mother of two younglings in a happy relationship with said kids' father.

That said, I entirely agree with speedwell on the matter. And no matter what you do, people-who-are-not-yet-parents, never ever ever do kids to prove your love, deepen your bonding to your partner, or fix your relationship in any way. Having kids won't do any of these things. Don't expect your partner to change his/her ways just because kids are now around, either. It's like with getting married. Mostly people stay who they were before.

Also, sad truth that I'm just throwing around in case anybody around should ever need it: if your partner is abusive, having kids never makes it better. Usually they'll get worse. If you're lucky they'll stay the same. There are actual studies on the subject. In fact it's startling how often physical abuse patterns start or escalate when one partner gets pregnant.
[/off topic]

Pretty much. within the context of the situation, it fits to say that about them and Annie. But like you said, without certain wholesome preexisting traits to the relationship, a child can only end up being proof of reproduction and nothing else and might even been a form of control. Too many just associate an event or action with one thing and think it will wash away the reality of a situation.

[imaginaryfriend]

With Court tech and Anthony's interest in finding a "cure" I suppose Antimony isn't even proof that they had sex.   It's reasonable to extrapolate that they did, though.

Nov 3, 2017 8:48:32 GMT aline said:

I think we should all probably reflect on how much time we spend morally judging the characters vs. time we spend paying attention to the actual story.

I can do two things at once.

[artezzatrigger]

Uncle Jimmy. I'm dying.

[rutland]

I'm a little disappointed in Anja here. I thought she was one of the more decent adults in the series, but I think the crux of this arc is that everyone's awful in different ways at this "parenting" business, haha!

When she's aware that Anthony has been being emotionally abusive towards his daughter (abandoning her for two-three years, returning to immediately escalate discipline after years of nothing through overt public humiliation and isolation from her peers while refusing to show any affection) and Antimony is actively showing the signs [1, 2, 3] of it to Anja's face, the response should've been to say "oh dear, why are you convinced your father's the devil? why are you convinced that you and your mother are the only people who could ever like your father, and why do you think it's plausible he might be brainwashing people to do that? you obviously need an adult to talk to, please sit down and explain your feelings."

Not to sit down and explain that 1) she's the result of a relationship born of Surma cheating on her boyfriend, 2) her father is actually capable of being kind to people, he just explicitly isn't interested in being kind to her, and 3) implicitly, if she brings her concerns to an adult, they're.. going to divert the discussion and dismiss them, because "your parents got lonely and boned in the jungle, that made them fall in love" is not really an adequate response to "I think my father is so awful that he is forcibly brainwashing people into liking him".

It makes sense in hindsight, though? Because Kat's relative freedom to have elaborate secret projects and do things like build hovercrafts without her parents noticing makes more sense if they're affectionate, but actively disinterested in parenting.

(Kind of harsh that "Annie's mom cheated on uncle Jimmy?" is immediately met with "but that's not the point!", though. Show some sympathy to your friend, girl, because it doesn't seem like you did in the immediate aftermath.)

[youwiththeface]

Nov 3, 2017 8:48:32 GMT aline said:

I'm cool with saying to Annie "You were born out of love", less cool with "Your existence is proof of their love". Having kids is proof of a number of things, love is not actually one of them.

Yeah. Kids are born out of rape, too. Just because Surma and Tony had a child does not prove they loved each other or that they loved each other that deeply. It's still possible Surma eventually got bored of Anthony but went ahead and used him as a sperm donor anyway. 

Nov 3, 2017 8:48:32 GMT aline said:

I liked Anja's "Yes but it's not the point". Yes. Thank you. I think we should all probably reflect on how much time we spend morally judging the characters vs. time we spend paying attention to the actual story. Myself included!

I don't know, I think that (and the whole story by extension) tells us more about Surma than Surma and Tony, and may be a clue as to why she wanted to have a kid even though she probably knew it would kill her. 

Also, I have no problem judging Surma and Tony's actions. I don't think what they did is that unusual, nor do I think it was the worst thing in the world. Far from it. But I don't think it's unreasonable to point out that it was a shitty thing to do to their friend, and that it doesn't look like it was even for anything particularly special. We got more hints that the risks Jeanne and her lover took were worth their love than we do Surma and Tony's cheating. 

Nov 3, 2017 9:23:21 GMT snowflake said:

The real point is that Anthony isn't some uniformly asocial monster: he can be open and likeable... around people who aren't Annie. This is actually worse for Annie than her mind-control hypothesis.

Yeah, this is more of the problem we've seen way back in Annie and the Fire, where we saw Tony could be down right personable....with Donny. 

Nov 3, 2017 12:11:55 GMT rutland said:

Words.

Yes to all of this. Every last thing.

[todd]

Nov 3, 2017 12:11:55 GMT rutland said:

if she brings her concerns to an adult, they're.. going to divert the discussion and dismiss them

Annie diverted the discussion as well, jumping from the original issue (Kat thawing towards Antony) to one about Surma, with Kat's changed feelings not brought up again or (as yet) properly addressed. (I still hope we get more details about the former, and that Tom wasn't just using it as a plot device to lead into the flashback.

[yinglung]

Nov 3, 2017 12:11:55 GMT rutland said:

I'm a little disappointed in Anja here. I thought she was one of the more decent adults in the series, but I think the crux of this arc is that everyone's awful in different ways at this "parenting" business, haha!

When she's aware that Anthony has been being emotionally abusive towards his daughter (abandoning her for two-three years, returning to immediately escalate discipline after years of nothing through overt public humiliation and isolation from her peers while refusing to show any affection) and Antimony is actively showing the signs [1, 2, 3] of it to Anja's face, the response should've been to say "oh dear, why are you convinced your father's the devil? why are you convinced that you and your mother are the only people who could ever like your father, and why do you think it's plausible he might be brainwashing people to do that? you obviously need an adult to talk to, please sit down and explain your feelings."

Or Anja could be fully aware of how people could not like Tony, and understands why Antimony thinks her father seems like he uses mind control of some sort to have positive relationships. Keep in mind, Donny showed Annie a side of her father that Tony was unable to show to his daughter. The sacrifices Tony made to see Surma again, the guilt he feels over how he has treated his own daughter to the point where he thinks he is not worthy of being her father. Donny showed Annie that Tony is not as cold as he seems. And now Anja is telling Annie why Tony has this weird dichotomy. She's saying that Tony has difficulty being himself around multiple people, and that he has genuinely likable traits. Without that information, it would seem to outsiders like Tony is a cold robot who uses some form of manipulation to have relationships. Anja understands this, because she saw James jump to that very conclusion. Seeing Tony's daughter jump to the same conclusion is sad, but understandable.

Not to sit down and explain that 1) she's the result of a relationship born of Surma cheating on her boyfriend, 2) her father is actually capable of being kind to people, he just explicitly isn't interested in being kind to her,

OBJECTION
Donny already showed Annie why Tony has difficulty interacting with her. Saying that Tony can turn his trauma and social anxiety off if he really cared is unrealistic and dismissive to a degree that I find troubling.

and 3) implicitly, if she brings her concerns to an adult, they're.. going to divert the discussion and dismiss them, because "your parents got lonely and boned in the jungle, that made them fall in love" is not really an adequate response to "I think my father is so awful that he is forcibly brainwashing people into liking him".

If you think that they fell in love only because they were lonely... the whole point of the story Anja is telling is that Tony has good characteristics that Surma noticed only when she was able to see him open up. If anything, James' reaction to the break up is showing that it's understandable to react the way Annie did, while offering Annie a more reasonable explanation.

It makes sense in hindsight, though? Because Kat's relative freedom to have elaborate secret projects and do things like build hovercrafts without her parents noticing makes more sense if they're affectionate, but actively disinterested in parenting.

Her dad helped make the hovercraft. Consider as well that Kat's current work space was given to her by her parents. It's not like she is using some secret base, they know exactly where her projects are. Kat's parents are merely trying to nurture their child's talents in science by letting her have access to her own lab area, and not some classroom that will have to be cleaned up afterward.

(Kind of harsh that "Annie's mom cheated on uncle Jimmy?" is immediately met with "but that's not the point!", though.

When Annie is doubting whether or not her father is lovable, you don't want to focus on the part where her mother was dating another man before she fell in love with Tony. Which may be why we didn't see much mention of Surma's relationship with James at the start, because Anja is not trying to tell that story.

Show some sympathy to your friend, girl, because it doesn't seem like you did in the immediate aftermath.)

When you see Jones close a door, that is not a door you try to open right away.

[ctso74]

"Well... yes, but that's not the point", Anja says to the forum Kat.

Chapter summary: People be complicated. Which is too vague to be too useful, so that leads us to pick and choose what context we focus on, which leads to varying fan theories and forum debate.
I see what you're doing Tom. Very clever. And to try to persuade us that it's our interpretations and constant speculation?... Insidious...

[rutland]

Nov 3, 2017 13:15:29 GMT yinglung said:

Or Anja could be fully aware of how people could not like Tony, and understands why Antimony thinks her father seems like he uses mind control of some sort to have positive relationships. Keep in mind, Donny showed Annie a side of her father that Tony was unable to show to his daughter. The sacrifices Tony made to see Surma again, the guilt he feels over how he has treated his own daughter to the point where he thinks he is not worthy of being her father. Donny showed Annie that Tony is not as cold as he seems. And now Anja is telling Annie why Tony has this weird dichotomy. She's saying that Tony has difficulty being himself around multiple people, and that he has genuinely likable traits. Without that information, it would seem to outsiders like Tony is a cold robot who uses some form of manipulation to have relationships. Anja understands this, because she saw James jump to that very conclusion. Seeing Tony's daughter jump to the same conclusion is sad, but understandable.

The thing is, though: the fact Annie thinks that it's even a possibility that her father is mind-controlling people, i.e. forcing them to like him without their consent, should be a big warning sign? Even when you don't like your parents, generally kids don't think that they're outright awful people, and that Annie thinks her father would do something like that is something that someone needs to eventually address. It's not normal, or healthy, to lack trust in your guardian to that extent - but neither Anja or Donnie has actually tried to find out why Annie feels this way, especially because she's his kid.

It'd make sense if, say, Kat thought that Antony was brainwashing Annie into loving him, because, like you said, he seems like a cold, manipulative robot! But Annie was directly raised by him, interacted with him regularly enough that she views him as her father and craves his affection / positive attention, she saw him interacting fondly with her mother, and.. she still thinks that he can't be trusted, ultimately, not to violate her friends mind, and potentially not to have done so to her mothers.

OBJECTION
Donny already showed Annie why Tony has difficulty interacting with her. Saying that Tony can turn his trauma and social anxiety off if he really cared is unrealistic and dismissive to a degree that I find troubling.

She's a kid, and I don't feel Annie ist shown to be a particularly emotionally mature kid, instead of just a deeply repressed one. I don't think it's realistic to expect her to understand that Tony's trauma and social anxiety doesn't apply to:

1) Kat
2) Donnie
3) Surma
4) Anja

but it does apply to her, and has since she was a child, and her mother had to actively assure her that he still loves her. (Also worth noting: her defense to Reynardine here, when he says that Antony is incapable of feeling more than disdain, is that he loved her mother. Not that he loves his family, or that he loves her - he loved her mother, and the proof is that the interactions that she saw.)

If you think that they fell in love only because they were lonely... the whole point of the story Anja is telling is that Tony has good characteristics that Surma noticed only when she was able to see him open up. If anything, James' reaction to the break up is showing that it's understandable to react the way Annie did, while offering Annie a more reasonable explanation.

That was an intentional oversimplification for the sake of humour on my part. But for what it's worth, I don't think that the story shows them actually falling in love, so much as it shows meant to show Anja's bias / romanticism, in the same way that Eglamore's descriptions of Antony are clearly biased by these events. Personally, as depicted, I think that the chapter just shows that Surma disliked her current relationship, she realised that she enjoyed Antony's company more than James, and she went for it, because it was an easy way to ensure a break up.

I don't think she was in love at this point, or even thinking about anything long-term, because we've already been shown she's fully willing to use affection to manipulate people with Reynardine - I think this is just meant to show that Anja adored Surma, and like when she was telling Annie about Surma/Reynardine, she just isn't interested in addressing her friend's negative traits. Surma was in love with Antony from the start, and that makes it better - just like Surma was just following orders, and that makes it better, nbddd.

But I think that part's more of a reading difference, ultimately! I think Surma's a fascinating character, but my view of her moral character is a lot grimmer than a lot of fandom's.

Her dad helped make the hovercraft. Consider as well that Kat's current work space was given to her by her parents. It's not like she is using some secret base, they know exactly where her projects are. Kat's parents are merely trying to nurture their child's talents in science by letting her have access to her own lab area, and not some classroom that will have to be cleaned up afterward.

Good catch! When the Shadowmen chapter referred to keeping her work a secret, I took that to mean the whole biological-robot arm dealio was not actually allowed in the Court? But it's been ages since I re-read the chapters where she starts on all the transhumanism issues.

(But that does present a separate issue of why Donnie let his kid go off at night to the murder-edge river / the border of the forbidden forest in a hovercraft to retrieve her friend, instead of just doing so himself - or why they weren't keeping a close enough eye on her, in light of the fact she clearly wanted to do this, that she was able to sneak out with a large machine anyway.

When Annie is doubting whether or not her father is lovable, you don't want to focus on the part where her mother was dating another man before she fell in love with Tony. Which may be why we didn't see much mention of Surma's relationship with James at the start, because Anja is not trying to tell that story.

If that was the case, though, she could've cut it off entirely prior to the confrontation! I know that part of this is just the narrative - we, as readers, want to get all the details - but from an in-verse point of view, it's kind of mean to explicitly mention that Surma was cheating, and then say "okay, no, but THAT part's irrelevant".

Nov 3, 2017 13:09:36 GMT todd said:

Nov 3, 2017 12:11:55 GMT rutland said:

if she brings her concerns to an adult, they're.. going to divert the discussion and dismiss them

Annie diverted the discussion as well, jumping from the original issue (Kat thawing towards Antony) to one about Surma, with Kat's changed feelings not brought up again or (as yet) properly addressed. (I still hope we get more details about the former, and that Tom wasn't just using it as a plot device to lead into the flashback.

Annie diverted the topic, but Annie's also a kid! Jumping from topic to topic when they're upset is what they do, even when they're as normally logical as Annie is, and if I'm not misremembering, Anja's a schoolteacher - she should be able to cut past the noise, and say "okay, you came in worried that your father is brainwashing people! whyyy is this even a thing you would think he would do?"

I really hope they still do address Kat and Antony's burgeoning friendship, though! I'm curious if it just hasn't been addressed because of the Surma focus.

[maxptc]

So does Anja think babies are proof of love, or is it specifically Annie is proof of that? Cause that first statement is silly but I suppose it makes sense that the fire can only pass if the child is the product of love, and not just the fire getting her rocks off.

[faiiry]

Sooo that's it? Please tell me that's not it. I've really tried not to judge, but if that's it, it may be the most underwhelming chapter the comic has ever had.

[rinabean]

Nov 3, 2017 8:18:32 GMT snowflake said:

I'm amazed by how "Annie's mum cheated on uncle Jimmy" sounds miles worse than "Surma cheated on James".

EDIT: also, the American spelling ("mom" rather than "mum")? What gives?

Nov 3, 2017 8:33:24 GMT speedwell said:

Nov 3, 2017 8:18:32 GMT snowflake said:

I'm amazed by how "Annie's mum cheated on uncle Jimmy" sounds miles worse than "Surma cheated on James".

EDIT: also, the American spelling ("mom" rather than "mum")? What gives?

As an American expat who lives in Ireland and works with British-born people, I see the kids using "mom" a lot more than they used to. My Irish mother-in-law says she thinks it's due to American TV.

It's not only american. Zimmy would probably talk about her "mom" too, that is if she has one. It's definitely a midlands thing. Not that people won't disagree. My own mother claims it's american too, and her mum always talks about people's moms, and isn't american at all. We're all from the midlands. So I'm not surprised if people from outside the areas that have always said mom don't know this either.

Nov 3, 2017 14:26:46 GMT faiiry said:

Sooo that's it? Please tell me that's not it. I've really tried not to judge, but if that's it, it may be the most underwhelming chapter the comic has ever had.

I've really enjoyed it. There have been chapters I like less than others, and one I think is actually harmful to the story, but this isn't one of them. We all have different tastes.

[spritznar]

Nov 3, 2017 13:49:41 GMT rutland said:

Nov 3, 2017 13:15:29 GMT yinglung said:

Or Anja could be fully aware of how people could not like Tony, and understands why Antimony thinks her father seems like he uses mind control of some sort to have positive relationships. Keep in mind, Donny showed Annie a side of her father that Tony was unable to show to his daughter. The sacrifices Tony made to see Surma again, the guilt he feels over how he has treated his own daughter to the point where he thinks he is not worthy of being her father. Donny showed Annie that Tony is not as cold as he seems. And now Anja is telling Annie why Tony has this weird dichotomy. She's saying that Tony has difficulty being himself around multiple people, and that he has genuinely likable traits. Without that information, it would seem to outsiders like Tony is a cold robot who uses some form of manipulation to have relationships. Anja understands this, because she saw James jump to that very conclusion. Seeing Tony's daughter jump to the same conclusion is sad, but understandable.

The thing is, though: the fact Annie thinks that it's even a possibility that her father is mind-controlling people, i.e. forcing them to like him without their consent, should be a big warning sign? Even when you don't like your parents, generally kids don't think that they're outright awful people, and that Annie thinks her father would do something like that is something that someone needs to eventually address. It's not normal, or healthy, to lack trust in your guardian to that extent - but neither Anja or Donnie has actually tried to find out why Annie feels this way, especially because she's his kid.

It'd make sense if, say, Kat thought that Antony was brainwashing Annie into loving him, because, like you said, he seems like a cold, manipulative robot! But Annie was directly raised by him, interacted with him regularly enough that she views him as her father and craves his affection / positive attention, she saw him interacting fondly with her mother, and.. she still thinks that he can't be trusted, ultimately, not to violate her friends mind, and potentially not to have done so to her mothers.

annie didn't come up with that idea on her own though. annie has in fact defended her father in the past, but when your close friends keep telling you something (and then one of his most vehement detractors does a sudden about face), you start to wonder

[faiiry]

One thing I've noticed. Annie never looks more like Surma than in the chapters when she's behaving badly. (http://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=803 an example, see also Faraway Morning). When she's just being herself, the resemblance is only superficial.

[rutland]

Nov 3, 2017 15:00:01 GMT spritznar said:

Nov 3, 2017 13:49:41 GMT rutland said:

The thing is, though: the fact Annie thinks that it's even a possibility that her father is mind-controlling people, i.e. forcing them to like him without their consent, should be a big warning sign? Even when you don't like your parents, generally kids don't think that they're outright awful people, and that Annie thinks her father would do something like that is something that someone needs to eventually address. It's not normal, or healthy, to lack trust in your guardian to that extent - but neither Anja or Donnie has actually tried to find out why Annie feels this way, especially because she's his kid.

It'd make sense if, say, Kat thought that Antony was brainwashing Annie into loving him, because, like you said, he seems like a cold, manipulative robot! But Annie was directly raised by him, interacted with him regularly enough that she views him as her father and craves his affection / positive attention, she saw him interacting fondly with her mother, and.. she still thinks that he can't be trusted, ultimately, not to violate her friends mind, and potentially not to have done so to her mothers.

annie didn't come up with that idea on her own though. annie has in fact defended her father in the past, but when your close friends keep telling you something (and then one of his most vehement detractors does a sudden about face), you start to wonder

Yeah, it def makes sense that she thinks it's the case, with everything we know: I just expected Anja to jump on that as a warning sign and that to lead into a discussion of why Kat's shifting her opinion on Antony, so we can see why Kat's changing her opinion - which is hoooopefully going to happen in the next few pages? I have my fingers crossed, at least.

[fia]

Nov 3, 2017 8:34:36 GMT philman said:

Annie doesn't seem too convinced in that last panel. And she looks almost ashamed in the second panel.

I wonder if she is going to go visit Jimmy Jims herself after this, to get his side of the story. And some information on how her mum was before she hooked up with Tony.

Perhaps in another 10 chapters or so