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Post by ghostiet on Nov 1, 2017 19:35:29 GMT
Yeah, I'm not buying the whole "Jones is a manipulative bitch" theory at all, especially if it's based on her expression - I mean, if she at least flashed an inhuman grin or something, fine, but I think reading into the blank stare she literally always has is reaching. She's also not completely clueless about context, it's been implied time and time again (including "The Stone" when she says that she'll be a friend to Eglamore for the rest of his life) that she understands social contracts and situations and shit, she just rarely applies them to herself.
If anything, she's just creepy and blunt in these scenes because latching onto people as their "legacy" is what she does; the end of her conversation with Annie in "The Stone" suggests she never really thought that much about the implications of her gestures, seeing them less as manifestations of emotions and more like a reflex. At this point in time, it's just business as usual for her - I can totally see Jones perceiving hooking up with James or her previous hosts and keeping their memory as the same thing as sucking on your finger when you hit it with a hammer.
Also holy hell, is it good to see Jones. The fact that she was missing from all the Tony and Jeanne shenanigans for so long was so effin' weird. It almost feels like Tom forgot about her as a character, just like it feels he forgot to include her in the group shots in the previous pages.
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Post by Refugee on Nov 1, 2017 21:30:20 GMT
Jones intervenes because she realizes James could do a great deal of damage if his jealousy and anger go untreated--and yet he can do a great deal of good if he can let go of them.
I think Jones cares for pretty much everyone she's involved with--but given her history,she doesn't all that much more for any one individual.
===
Pardon me, I haven't been following the forums much lately. Am I right in thinking the Court manipulated Surma and Tony together to meet some sort of breeding program? Try to cool Surma's fiery nature with Tony's dispassion?
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Post by fia on Nov 1, 2017 21:43:15 GMT
I can understand anger at Surma to an extent. But why be mad at (young) Tony?... Like, she can make her own decisions. On the other hand, I said it earlier and I'll say it again: boy, did Jones make a move on Eggers pretty quick. If, that is, she hadn't already made a move. I do find Jones a bit unsettling. We've speculated about her emotional states, but, more pressingly: Does she have moral commitments? If the answer is "no" or "how could she?" or "probably not," I think Jones is potentially the scariest character at Gunnerkrigg, however benevolent she's seemed thus far. I mean, she is on no one's side, as far as we know - not GC's, not Coyote's; she doesn't seem particularly inclined to prevent World Wars or anything. I will say one thing, which is that she seems as upset as she gets when Mortie died, and pressed the ROTD to fix it. She seemed more surprised when Annie was not chosen as the Medium, (I think we know now the reason Llanwellyn refused, besides Annie's insubordination, was partly due to her terrible cheating record), and then refused to back Llanwellyn on his protests against Annie being Forest Medium, which indicates she has preferences and expectations that are sometimes thwarted. I don't know what her facial expression on this page quite indicates, but she doesn't look surprised, or even upset. Which makes me uneasy. |
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Post by todd on Nov 1, 2017 23:46:57 GMT
Pardon me, I haven't been following the forums much lately. Am I right in thinking the Court manipulated Surma and Tony together to meet some sort of breeding program? Try to cool Surma's fiery nature with Tony's dispassion? You're not the first person to suggest that the Court was behind the events, but I don't think it likely. It would have required far too much control of different variables (what if Surma hadn't volunteered?, for example). I think the whole thing can be credited to just regular human emotions, without the need of bringing in a conspiracy behind the scenes. |
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Post by warrl on Nov 2, 2017 3:02:08 GMT
Alternative theory on Jones' reaction:
With her long experience with humans, she recognized some time ago that James and Surma were not right for each other. She didn't make a significant (or, perhaps, any) effort to break them up because (a) that's not her style and (b) it didn't seem necessary. Now that they have broken up, she wants to smooth things over so both can pick up the pieces and carry on - and judges that Surma, for her part, has already done that, leaving James needing some help adjusting.
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Post by spritznar on Nov 2, 2017 3:24:29 GMT
I do find Jones a bit unsettling. We've speculated about her emotional states, but, more pressingly: Does she have moral commitments? If the answer is "no" or "how could she?" or "probably not," I think Jones is potentially the scariest character at Gunnerkrigg, however benevolent she's seemed thus far. I mean, she is on no one's side, as far as we know - not GC's, not Coyote's; she doesn't seem particularly inclined to prevent World Wars or anything. I will say one thing, which is that she seems as upset as she gets when Mortie died, and pressed the ROTD to fix it. She seemed more surprised when Annie was not chosen as the Medium, (I think we know now the reason Llanwellyn refused, besides Annie's insubordination, was partly due to her terrible cheating record), and then refused to back Llanwellyn on his protests against Annie being Forest Medium, which indicates she has preferences and expectations that are sometimes thwarted. I don't know what her facial expression on this page quite indicates, but she doesn't look surprised, or even upset. Which makes me uneasy. does a stone have moral commitments? the question really is does jones have motives. since she does interact, rather than strictly observe, i'd say yes. i wouldn't assume a threatening motive just because she's unreadable though. then again, i do tend to assume lack of malice and rather gray morality... sidenote, how exactly would you expect jones to stop world wars? she's still only one being, and unless she were to take over the human race she doesn't really have any way to stop them from being idiots. (and even then...) |
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Post by bratello07 on Nov 2, 2017 5:20:48 GMT
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Post by maxptc on Nov 2, 2017 5:21:09 GMT
does a stone have moral commitments? the question really is does jones have motives. since she does interact, rather than strictly observe, i'd say yes. i wouldn't assume a threatening motive just because she's unreadable though. then again, i do tend to assume lack of malice and rather gray morality... The question become what that motive is. It clearly has something to do with her companions, but what? Is she using them for long/short term gain, grooming them for something, observing how they react to her in various ways at various stages? Everyone has a game, and I think Jones is playing one we can't see yet. |
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Post by rafk on Nov 2, 2017 5:58:43 GMT
I don't know, her long stare at Surma and Tony as she closes the door... Looks very satisfied. She may have always thought Surma was wrong for Jimmy Jims. We know Surma couldn't stand Jones (since chapter 22) and the feeling was likely mutual. Jealousy over Jim (no matter what Jones says about her lack of emotion) would be a reasonable cause, although Tom may be more devious in his storytelling than that. |
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Post by rafk on Nov 2, 2017 6:00:05 GMT
Pardon me, I haven't been following the forums much lately. Am I right in thinking the Court manipulated Surma and Tony together to meet some sort of breeding program? Try to cool Surma's fiery nature with Tony's dispassion? Possible. I think it's at least likely the court asked Tony to study Surma. Whether they were able to predict this turn is hard to say. |
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Post by maxptc on Nov 2, 2017 6:03:51 GMT
Theory: Jones goes to wherever Anja's from. Jones kills her father or mother or whomever it was, to destroy Donny's chances of going on the trip. Although this theory doesn't hold water, because A) Why wouldn't she simply kill a family member of Donny's? B) How could she have known Surma would volunteer? Not that I think Jones is that manipulative, but had Surma not volunteered Tony wouldn't have been able to go on the trip, and would have been alone with Surma anyways. |
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Post by Refugee on Nov 2, 2017 11:18:10 GMT
A couple of folks have pointed out that not even Jones, or the Court itself, could have predicted Surma's decision to go off with Tony. I admit I hadn't thought of that, and it's an excellent point. I can only suggest that the Court keeps close tabs of its students, and is agile enough to take advantage of situations like this when they arise. "Your assignment is to watch this spot right here." And then control what the two Persons of Interest saw there. === I suspect that what Surma really didn't like about James was that he was far too protective. He is risk averse. Surma is the very embodiment of risk. He would never be able to control her enough to protect her. Tony, on the other had, simply ignores risk. He is far too focused on his goals, whatever they are, to notice risk. And oh man, when risk finally catches up with him, boy does he get walloped. === She may have always thought Surma was wrong for Jimmy Jims. Or she's privy to the Court's breeding plan for Surma...And approves.  [update]Which is another way of saying that James was wrong for Surma.[/up] === I'd sure like to know how Jones picks the boys she chooses to be with. Mr. Langdon was very rich, but rather unattractive, and blind in one eye. James is very strong in body--what flaw does she think he has? What does he have in common with Mr. Langdon? My guess--and it is just that, a guess--is that both men had powers and abilities far outside the norm, but both lacked the leadership skills to deploy those powers effectively. |
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Post by Zox Tomana on Nov 2, 2017 12:56:06 GMT
I'd sure like to know how Jones picks the boys she chooses to be with. Mr. Langdon was very rich, but rather unattractive, and blind in one eye. James is very strong in body--what flaw does she think he has? What does he have in common with Mr. Langdon? My guess--and it is just that, a guess--is that both men had powers and abilities far outside the norm, but both lacked the leadership skills to deploy those powers effectively. We don't know about who gave her the name "Emma" though, or anything about "Mr. Jones" whom she took the name "Jones" from, besides that it seems he ran a filling factory. |
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yinglung
Full Member
It's only a tatter of mime.
Posts: 190
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Post by yinglung on Nov 2, 2017 13:22:32 GMT
I'd sure like to know how Jones picks the boys she chooses to be with. Mr. Langdon was very rich, but rather unattractive, and blind in one eye. James is very strong in body--what flaw does she think he has? What does he have in common with Mr. Langdon? My guess--and it is just that, a guess--is that both men had powers and abilities far outside the norm, but both lacked the leadership skills to deploy those powers effectively. Personally, I think Jones doesn't choose who she accompanies. They all latch on to her, and since she has no preference either way, she allows herself to become their companion. It might be something of a Mort situation as well, where she feels that she is responsible for people who are affected by her presence. When a young person imprints on her for a parental relationship instead of an actual human, she feels she should play that role for them until they don't need her anymore. |
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Post by todd on Nov 2, 2017 13:30:23 GMT
I still think it's possible that the slugs mating was what the Court cared about - a new piece of information about invertebrate biology. IIt would be of interest to scientists. (I suspect we tend to think the worst of the Court partly because of its machiavellian doings - which it only embarked on because its leaders were afraid of the forest - partly because of Coyote's statement about it being "Man's attempt to become God" - and remember that this is a scheming trickster with his own agenda who said this. I think it has a lot to answer for, but as I've mentioned a few times here, I do not think we should see it as some super-villain organization scheming to take over the planet.)
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Post by ohthatone on Nov 2, 2017 14:02:44 GMT
I really don't think the Court had anything to do with Tony and Surma hooking up. in fact I rather think they would be against the idea if they had their druthers. Tony is very gifted in sciences, in which they put more credence than Surma's ether blah blah. I doubt they'd be very happy with Tony being distracted-and influenced-by this magic wielding force of nature. Maybe that's what makes them flee the Court?
but honestly I doubt they'd have much interest either way.
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Post by speedwell on Nov 2, 2017 14:05:58 GMT
I'd sure like to know how Jones picks the boys she chooses to be with. Mr. Langdon was very rich, but rather unattractive, and blind in one eye. James is very strong in body--what flaw does she think he has? What does he have in common with Mr. Langdon? My guess--and it is just that, a guess--is that both men had powers and abilities far outside the norm, but both lacked the leadership skills to deploy those powers effectively. We don't know about who gave her the name "Emma" though, or anything about "Mr. Jones" whom she took the name "Jones" from, besides that it seems he ran a filling factory. "What's your name, miss?" "Emmm... uhhh...." "Emma what?" |
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Post by kelantar on Nov 2, 2017 14:13:55 GMT
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Post by speedwell on Nov 2, 2017 14:27:27 GMT
Jones intervenes because she realizes James could do a great deal of damage if his jealousy and anger go untreated--and yet he can do a great deal of good if he can let go of them. I think Jones cares for pretty much everyone she's involved with--but given her history,she doesn't all that much more for any one individual. It is possible, but by no means probable, that Jones has never found it expedient, necessary, or merely interesting to comfort her companion in one of the main ways humans find comforting. If you catch my drift. |
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Post by fia on Nov 2, 2017 15:07:50 GMT
I do find Jones a bit unsettling. We've speculated about her emotional states, but, more pressingly: Does she have moral commitments? If the answer is "no" or "how could she?" or "probably not," I think Jones is potentially the scariest character at Gunnerkrigg, however benevolent she's seemed thus far. I mean, she is on no one's side, as far as we know - not GC's, not Coyote's; she doesn't seem particularly inclined to prevent World Wars or anything. I will say one thing, which is that she seems as upset as she gets when Mortie died, and pressed the ROTD to fix it. She seemed more surprised when Annie was not chosen as the Medium, (I think we know now the reason Llanwellyn refused, besides Annie's insubordination, was partly due to her terrible cheating record), and then refused to back Llanwellyn on his protests against Annie being Forest Medium, which indicates she has preferences and expectations that are sometimes thwarted. I don't know what her facial expression on this page quite indicates, but she doesn't look surprised, or even upset. Which makes me uneasy. does a stone have moral commitments? the question really is does jones have motives. since she does interact, rather than strictly observe, i'd say yes. i wouldn't assume a threatening motive just because she's unreadable though. then again, i do tend to assume lack of malice and rather gray morality... sidenote, how exactly would you expect jones to stop world wars? she's still only one being, and unless she were to take over the human race she doesn't really have any way to stop them from being idiots. (and even then...) Well, she certainly makes decisions. They have to be based on something. For instance, her decision not to impart her vast knowledge on humanity –– why? Mere plot device, or genuine moral commitment? Also, she seems to know Annie is "important to the Court" –– but doesn't say why!!! I'm not saying Jones is malicious. Just that she knows things. And doesn't impart this knowledge. Including possibly knowledge of manipulative assholery, which may or may not benefit her. For instance, Eggers and Surma breaking up. Re: world wars. It wouldn't be so hard. She's friends with lots of etheric creatures and has seniority. Couldn't she just orchestrate some major quasi-religious intervention, and also just break all the bombs before they're used? If she wanted to. She just seems sort of indifferent. |
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Post by Zox Tomana on Nov 2, 2017 15:46:17 GMT
We don't know about who gave her the name "Emma" though, or anything about "Mr. Jones" whom she took the name "Jones" from, besides that it seems he ran a filling factory. "What's your name, miss?" "Emmm... uhhh...." "Emma what?" "Errmmm..." "Emma Erm?" "Yeeessss..." "..." "  " ":\" " " "...carry on..." |
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Post by Refugee on Nov 2, 2017 17:20:23 GMT
Personally, I think Jones doesn't choose who she accompanies. They all latch on to her, and since she has no preference either way, she allows herself to become their companion. Didn't Jones meet James at the Court? (And later, didn't she pick Donny up from his home?) It's also possible that the Court assigns her charges to her. |
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Post by Refugee on Nov 2, 2017 17:25:51 GMT
It is possible, but by no means probable, that Jones has never found it expedient, necessary, or merely interesting to comfort her companion in one of the main ways humans find comforting. If you catch my drift. Actually, I think this is very likely. Every time we saw James with her, their poses were intimate, but not sexual. I've wondered for a long time now if Jones is anatomically correct, or a Barbie doll. [Considers Niven's meditation on Superman and Louis Lane, "Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex"] I wonder if it would be safe for for a girl to have sex with James. But with Jones, the safety question is reversed. |
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Post by stef1987 on Nov 2, 2017 18:41:24 GMT
I really hate Surma now
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Post by Refugee on Nov 2, 2017 19:34:52 GMT
Why? She's the female, she gets to make the ultimate mate choice. James failed her tests, for whatever reason. Tony wins the egg. That's all Uncle Darwin cares about. And it got us whatsername, Firehead Girl, whose kinda interesting, in her way. And who, not at all by the way, killed Surma by rehosting the family fire spirit. (Jeez, imagine who James would have fathered, some musclebound soccer player with her hair in a bristle-cut and a laugh like a donkey. No thank you.] |
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Post by Per on Nov 2, 2017 20:05:41 GMT
Jeez, imagine who James would have fathered, some musclebound soccer player with her hair in a bristle-cut and a laugh like a donkey. No thank you. You'd think so, but halfway through The Disappearance of Antimony Carver she starts to grow on you. |
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Post by Refugee on Nov 2, 2017 20:19:52 GMT
Jeez, imagine who James would have fathered, some musclebound soccer player with her hair in a bristle-cut and a laugh like a donkey. No thank you. You'd think so, but halfway through The Disappearance of Antimony Carver she starts to grow on you. What, the episode where she makes the same play at the goal over and over again? |
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Post by fish on Nov 2, 2017 20:38:53 GMT
I've always hated Eglamore, to be honest. Isn't it wonderful how likes or dislikes of certain fictional characters bring out our own personal differences? |
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Post by faiiry on Nov 2, 2017 20:56:08 GMT
Theory: Jones goes to wherever Anja's from. Jones kills her father or mother or whomever it was, to destroy Donny's chances of going on the trip. Although this theory doesn't hold water, because A) Why wouldn't she simply kill a family member of Donny's? B) How could she have known Surma would volunteer? Not that I think Jones is that manipulative, but had Surma not volunteered Tony wouldn't have been able to go on the trip, and would have been alone with Surma anyways. That's true - so maybe the theory does hold water. But somehow I don't think that if Surma and Tony were alone in the Court, they would have started interacting. The Court is like a city, and there's lots to do there compared to the jungle. |
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Post by faiiry on Nov 2, 2017 20:57:06 GMT
(Jeez, imagine who James would have fathered, some musclebound soccer player with her hair in a bristle-cut and a laugh like a donkey. No thank you.] Sooooo Parley? |
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