|
|
Post by aline on Oct 25, 2017 11:32:45 GMT
Not an ex yet, and that's the point. He is by the time she says "Our relationship is over" which obviously just happened. He is an ex now. Whatever Tony was referring to when he said "that business with James" is something that hasn't happened yet (or is starting right now). Yes she cheated and that's shitty, we are in agreement. But when we discuss whatever it is that happened with James, it's something that happened after Surma ended her relationship with him. Which does not make the cheating disappear, but does make it something that happened in the past. And cheating or no cheating, James' reaction is pretty weird. He's not saying "How could you do that to me", but "How could you do that with him". |
|
|
|
Post by faiiry on Oct 25, 2017 11:37:02 GMT
Not an ex yet, and that's the point. He is by the time she says "Our relationship is over" which obviously just happened. He is an ex now. Whatever Tony was referring to when he said "that business with James" is something that hasn't happened yet (or is starting right now). Yes she cheated and that's shitty, we are in agreement. But when we discuss whatever it is that happened with James, it's something that happened after Surma ended her relationship with him. Which does not make the cheating disappear, but does make it something that happened in the past. And cheating or no cheating, James' reaction is pretty weird. He's not saying "How could you do that to me", but "How could you do that with him". That seems to have been Eglamore's reaction the whole time. In The Stone, it's not simply "How could she leave me," but "How could she leave me for Mr. I Have Matters To Attend To?" That being said, this is a huge plot twist, especially for people who weren't around for those approximately-36 pages of falling in love in the jungle. From Eglamore's perspective, the sky has turned from blue to green. |
|
|
|
Post by youwiththeface on Oct 25, 2017 11:44:31 GMT
Yeah...I mean it's not like we've seen the most scintillating personality spark from within Tony. He's just...more laid back? Somewhat funnier and more relaxed? Does it always have to be a scintillating personality spark? Funnier and more relaxed sounds just fine to me.
(*Timber remains an unabashed fan of young outdoor Tony)
Except there seems to be literally nothing else to him. She might as well have fallen in love with a mannequin. |
|
|
|
Post by faiiry on Oct 25, 2017 11:47:42 GMT
I'm probably going to do some double posting, but there is a lot to unpack in this page. -Like has been discussed, if we're not interpreting this wrong, Eglamore doesn't seem surprised that Surma would cheat - only that she'd cheat with Tony. -He's wearing the same outfit as he did here. -Surma is a jerk. She apparently elected to dump Eglamore in front of literally every single friend they have. (Which is just Donny and Anja, but whatever.) Couldn't this wait until he'd unpacked, at least? -Surma is a jerk, again. She has no cause to be angry at Eglamore in panel 3. He's not being unreasonable by any stretch, and yet, her expression says "Oh, please, enough of this nonsense." -The positioning of Donny and Anja makes them look like they have sided with Eglamore. I wonder who Brinnie sided with? I NEED to see more of Brinnie. -I also NEED to see more of Anja's outfit. -Either Eglamore hasn't been gone very long, or at this point he's just not adept at growing facial hair. -I know Tony is a socially-awkward super-genius who can't show emotions in public. But in this situation, I think almost anyone would be showing some sort of emotion, no matter how many people are around. -I have a shirt a lot like Surma's. Same color and everything. -It remains to be seen what pants he's wearing, but it looks like Tony reverts to the exact same white-shirt-brown-pants combo all the time while in the Court. -Robot Tony and Jungle Tony are literally like two separate characters in my head. They don't even look alike. With that in mind, I am seeing this whole thing through Eglamore, Donny and Anja's perspective. How could anyone love Robot Tony?? Look at him. His hair doesn't even go up. |
|
|
|
Post by stigand on Oct 25, 2017 11:53:17 GMT
Like in case I have to point this out, cheating on someone and then later breaking up with them is like, well I mean at least you're not leaving them dangling, but it's still cheating. It doesn't retroactively become not-cheating, even if you plan to break up with them later at the time of said cheating. I mean, we didn't really know much about Surma and James's relationship in the first place. Did they agree to be exclusive with each other? At what point does dating two people become cheating? If she had led James on at this point, yes, that would be cheating, but I interpret this as "Surma was in a casual relationship with a guy who assumed she was tight with him, she discovers a man she is more interested in, she immediately owns up with the first guy about how she feels". Not that I agree that Surma should have started making moves before breaking up, but you know, maybe she wanted to be sure this wasn't a mistake. If Tony reacted negatively, she could just drop it and go back to Eggers. It's dumb on her part, but starting a new relationship is scary and it's understandable that a teenager would do that. What I'm mainly confused about is when does seeing two guys become cheating. |
|
|
|
Post by speedwell on Oct 25, 2017 11:55:58 GMT
I have a sad suspicion that James didn't find out that Surma ran off to the jungle with Tony until after the two of them were gone. Sure he's not going to be surprised that she's pulling something; he just didn't think it would turn out to be what it was.
|
|
|
|
Post by faiiry on Oct 25, 2017 12:02:51 GMT
Another thing: we still need an explanation for why Surma didn't want her child born in the Court. Sure, it can be explained away by the fact that her old boyfriend lived there, but from the way Tony explains it, it sounds like there were three separate reasons: she didn't want Anja to see her die, there was "that business with James," and she didn't want her baby born in the Court. That leaves the question of why? What's so bad about the Court? Is it just too technical and lifeless, or is there another reason? And yet another thing: from that page, it seems like Surma was pregnant (or planning to very soon become pregnant) when she and Tony left (due to the "business with James"). But in recent pages, they don't seem old enough to be having babies. Surma doesn't look as old in Chapter 61 as she does on page 1548. We also know that she had Annie in her mid 20s, since she was in her late 30s when she died. So either we're interpreting the gang's age in the current flashback all wrong - and Tony and Surma are already intending to have babies after a mere few weeks of knowing each other - or there was ANOTHER "business with James" years after the current business. |
|
|
|
Post by Timberwere on Oct 25, 2017 12:03:09 GMT
Does it always have to be a scintillating personality spark? Funnier and more relaxed sounds just fine to me.
(*Timber remains an unabashed fan of young outdoor Tony)
Except there seems to be literally nothing else to him. She might as well have fallen in love with a mannequin. Well, there is the brilliant mind. Oh, and the handsome looks, I guess. |
|
|
|
Post by faiiry on Oct 25, 2017 12:06:24 GMT
Lord, I have so much to say. Another thing I notice is that Tony has a weird personality. (You don't say?) But anyhow, in chapter 53, when he's alone with Donny, he seems like a totally different person - more like his formal, robotic public persona - than he did with Surma. You can chalk that up to 20 years of character development, but it's still interesting. Maybe Tony can only be totally at ease when he's hanging out with a pretty girl?
|
|
|
|
Post by aline on Oct 25, 2017 12:14:45 GMT
-Surma is a jerk, again. She has no cause to be angry at Eglamore in panel 3. He's not being unreasonable by any stretch, and yet, her expression says "Oh, please, enough of this nonsense." "You have got to be joking" is not unreasonable as such, but it means "what you just said is so ridiculous I can't take it seriously." It's not jerkish to frown at that. I know James' shock is genuine, but it's also pretty natural for Surma to feel defensive in that situation. I wonder who Brinnie sided with? I NEED to see more of Brinnie. A good question. Since she was herself in love with Tony at one point, she'd understand Surma's attraction to him better. But since we barely know anything about her personality, well... It's the other way around. Tony is like this as a reaction to stress. When a situation gets more stressful the shutdown is more intense, not less. Right now he's hitting huge levels of stressful, his inner walls are probably sixteen layers of titanium and still growing. The only way he'd show any feelings under this kind of stress is if somebody actually managed to punch a hole in his walls, which would probably result in breakdown. Remind you of anybody? www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1541www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1499 |
|
|
|
Post by faiiry on Oct 25, 2017 12:22:42 GMT
It's the other way around. Tony is like this as a reaction to stress. When a situation gets more stressful the shutdown is more intense, not less. Right now he's hitting huge levels of stressful, his inner walls are probably sixteen layers of titanium and still growing. The only way he'd show any feelings under this kind of stress is if somebody actually managed to punch a hole in his walls, which would probably result in breakdown. Remind you of anybody? www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1541www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1499 When you look at it that way - that he's working extra hard to hide his stress at this moment - it makes perfect sense. So we're probably gonna see Tony's fingernails digging into his palm sometime soon? |
|
|
|
Post by aline on Oct 25, 2017 12:27:41 GMT
Another thing: we still need an explanation for why Surma didn't want her child born in the Court. Sure, it can be explained away by the fact that her old boyfriend lived there, but from the way Tony explains it, it sounds like there were three separate reasons: she didn't want Anja to see her die, there was "that business with James," and she didn't want her baby born in the Court. That leaves the question of why? What's so bad about the Court? Is it just too technical and lifeless, or is there another reason? And yet another thing: from that page, it seems like Surma was pregnant (or planning to very soon become pregnant) when she and Tony left (due to the "business with James"). But in recent pages, they don't seem old enough to be having babies. Surma doesn't look as old in Chapter 61 as she does on page 1548. We also know that she had Annie in her mid 20s, since she was in her late 30s when she died. So either we're interpreting the gang's age in the current flashback all wrong - and Tony and Surma are already intending to have babies after a mere few weeks of knowing each other - or there was ANOTHER "business with James" years after the current business. I don't think they actually leave right away. Tony said he was "happy to leave" after "this business with James", but doesn't cite it as a main reason for making the decision. There could have been lingering resentment for years. Then Surma said she wanted to leave for other reasons, Tony felt relieved to finally be away from all that and decided it was a good idea to burn their bridges. And of course you're right, we don't know if "that business with James" means the break up, or something different that happened years after, possibly triggered by the bad feelings still haunting the group. |
|
|
|
Post by wynne on Oct 25, 2017 12:37:05 GMT
I have a sad suspicion that James didn't find out that Surma ran off to the jungle with Tony until after the two of them were gone. Sure he's not going to be surprised that she's pulling something; he just didn't think it would turn out to be what it was. For what it's worth, I'm not sure she could have told him. Smitty and Anja/Surma's references to Parley and James' training always left me with the impression that they're isolated out in the wilderness with no means of contact, the better to not have any distractions. |
|
|
|
Post by Per on Oct 25, 2017 12:47:52 GMT
-Surma is a jerk. She apparently elected to dump Eglamore in front of literally every single friend they have. (Which is just Donny and Anja, but whatever.) Couldn't this wait until he'd unpacked, at least? Except then there would be someone to go, "Oh Surma you big viper, hugging and smiling falsely while putting off sticking a dagger in his back for your own convenience." -Surma is a jerk, again. She has no cause to be angry at Eglamore in panel 3. He's not being unreasonable by any stretch, and yet, her expression says "Oh, please, enough of this nonsense." As aline said, she's scowling in response to his reaction to the break-up being "You have got to be kidding me." And she knows better than we do how that reflects his personality. I thought the page did a pretty good job of making the bearded guy look like a jerk. |
|
|
|
Post by philman on Oct 25, 2017 13:00:23 GMT
-Surma is a jerk, again. She has no cause to be angry at Eglamore in panel 3. He's not being unreasonable by any stretch, and yet, her expression says "Oh, please, enough of this nonsense." "You have got to be joking" is not unreasonable as such, but it means "what you just said is so ridiculous I can't take it seriously." It's not jerkish to frown at that. I know James' shock is genuine, but it's also pretty natural for Surma to feel defensive in that situation. I don't see I don't see that expression as being angry, it looks more like she is resolute, ready for Eglamore to be upset or have an argument, but very sure about not changing her mind. I think they must stick around in the court for a little while longer at least. Only for it to get more and more awkward between them, Eglamore and their friends. The nastiness with James that forces them to leave is when Surma becomes pregnant. All of them know that she will die when she has a child, and Eglamore, still in love with Surma, probably becomes extremely angry at Tony, blaming him for killing her. Do we know who is older out of Annie and Kat? Since they are in the same year, then Anja and Surma must have been pregnant at the same time. I wonder if Anja getting pregnant is the spark that causes Surma to want to have a child with Tony too. |
|
|
|
Post by ctso74 on Oct 25, 2017 14:01:13 GMT
Robot Tony and Jungle Tony are literally like two separate characters in my head. Best action figure ideas ever. -I'm guessing Eggs just arrived, and the first thing he wanted was a kiss, leading to this. Even if she asked to speak with him alone, instead of kissing him, he would have wanted to know what was wrong. Leading to... -From Tony's "What about James?" comment in the jungle, I'm assuming Surma and James were exclusive. Bad Surma. That hurts, but it happens in life. Still though, you can't "steal" someone unless they want to be "stolen", Eggs. -If there's any aggression from James, I'm betting it will be a thrown punch, stopping a millimeter from Tony's face. Tony's hair will be blown back, but he won't even flinch or move. Of course, that will just piss James of more. -I'm wondering, if Surma sort of likes the idea of "private Tony" being only hers. A side only she gets to see. |
|
|
|
Post by theonethatgotaway on Oct 25, 2017 14:02:41 GMT
My god, already two pages, and none of you, NOT ONE has said ...
"Oh hey, it's that guy again"
I am disappointed in the lot of you!
|
|
|
|
Post by wynne on Oct 25, 2017 14:04:32 GMT
It's also possible that Surma making moves on Tony was partially motivated (or at least encouraged) by a desire to break up with James in the first place. Which is a less-than-great way to go about it, obviously, but I know people who've used similar stuff to justify ending long-distance relationships (though usually it's "made out with someone at a party" rather than "spent a month alone in the Amazon"). You put it off because you don't want to hurt the person or it's not a good time, but then it ends up making the breakup worse in the long run.
Surma's actions in general are reading as "flawed but very very human" to me. It's crappy and immature, but it's also... not uncommon before people learn that a) Wanting to Break Up is Enough, and b) just biting the bullet is kinder for all involved.
[Also, massively projecting friends/relatives' personal experiences here, but it seems to happen more with Intense First Relationships, because you don't know how to break up yet. The guilty party's next relationship might be less capital-R Romantic (in the Bronte sense), but it's often a lot happier and healthier; being immature now doesn't mean Surma can't grow.]
|
|
yinglung
Full Member
It's only a tatter of mime.
Posts: 190
|
Post by yinglung on Oct 25, 2017 15:14:29 GMT
Reading this chapter and people's responses to Tony is so surreal to me. Tom managed to write my exact experience with socializing, and it's kind of amazing seeing people's reactions to that sort of thing. Lord, I have so much to say. Another thing I notice is that Tony has a weird personality. (You don't say?) But anyhow, in chapter 53, when he's alone with Donny, he seems like a totally different person - more like his formal, robotic public persona - than he did with Surma. You can chalk that up to 20 years of character development, but it's still interesting. Maybe Tony can only be totally at ease when he's hanging out with a pretty girl? Reading through chapter 53 again, I have to disagree. Tony relaxes, makes jokes, then goes on to relive traumatic events while telling his best friend about them. He is very much trying to hold it together, to tell the whole story without emotionally falling apart. So he makes self-depreciating jokes, gets serious, and breaks down crying. I imagine when he isn't reliving every tragic thing he has experienced, he would be more relaxed and relatively carefree while talking to Donny. Regarding Eggers' reaction on today's page, I could see it being one of two things. 1) He's about to get more upset, and this is him just starting to express his sense of betrayal, etc. or 2) He knows he hasn't been around for long periods of time, and the idea that she would find someone else while he was gone was something that he has considered. He might not be surprised at the break up, but he is unpleasantly surprised it's for Tony. |
|
jocobo
Junior Member
Posts: 78 
|
Post by jocobo on Oct 25, 2017 15:16:22 GMT
-Surma is a jerk. She apparently elected to dump Eglamore in front of literally every single friend they have. (Which is just Donny and Anja, but whatever.) Couldn't this wait until he'd unpacked, at least? Except then there would be someone to go, "Oh Surma you big viper, hugging and smiling falsely while putting off sticking a dagger in his back for your own convenience." -Surma is a jerk, again. She has no cause to be angry at Eglamore in panel 3. He's not being unreasonable by any stretch, and yet, her expression says "Oh, please, enough of this nonsense." As aline said, she's scowling in response to his reaction to the break-up being "You have got to be kidding me." And she knows better than we do how that reflects his personality. I thought the page did a pretty good job of making the bearded guy look like a jerk. What was he supposed to say? Congratulations? I think people are being too hard and reading too much into Eggs line here. He's got his bag over his shoulder. They seem to be standing in a corridor. Which leads me to wonder if he even got a "hello how was your trip" or the courtesy of a "I need to speak with you privately" before the bomb dropped. He just got back. Last he knew Surma and Anthony weren't even good friends let alone romantically linked. Look at Egglamore's face in the first panel. He doesn't look angry or condescending. He looks confused and maybe a little shocked. Everyone in panel one looks shocked. He's speaking slowly as indicated by ellipsis. Personally I'm taking it as legitimate disbelief because it's a lot of new painful) information to process. And frankly, dumping someone with the guy you cheated on him standing right next to you will his longtime friends watch is such an incredibly cruel thing to do that even if he did react with anger or condescension I'm not sure I'd blame him. Because who does that? I don't think Surma has the moral high ground here to be angry that Eglamore is angry. |
|
|
|
Post by fia on Oct 25, 2017 16:29:51 GMT
What I'm noticing most is Surma's facial expression. She doesn't have a compassionate expression at all; it seems defiant, almost angry, the kind of face you have if you are determinately coming out as gay to your conservative parents, or expecting a temperamental person to throw a tantrum.
There are two options – either (a) Surma is a huge jerk, or (b) Surma is scared of, or possibly mad at, at James.
From personal experience alone, I'm going to side with (b). We might get more questions answered on Friday, but Surma's so far been shown to be impulsive, but not irresponsible or insensitive, and certainly not unresponsive to people's feelings. If she has been in a relationship with James for most of their teen years, and she has that expression on her face, something bad must have previously happened between her and James. Maybe it was something that she hadn't realized was bad until she spent a few weeks with Tony.
I mean if you break up with someone because it's time or it's the right thing, usually you have a way more sad expression on your face. I hate breaking up with people. You're really only mad or defiant about it if it's a response to something negative they did or some bad way they made you feel.
This may be entirely me projecting, but let me tell you, I have been there before. Have any of you ever dated or been friends with a possessive jerk and not realized they were a possessive jerk until meeting someone who wasn't? Or, on a different foot, dated or been friends with a manipulative jerk who you didn't realize was a manipulative jerk until meeting someone who was very honest and straightforward? These things happen.
I am not saying I am convinced James did a bad thing. Just saying that Surma's face contains multitudes.
|
|
|
|
Post by ohthatone on Oct 25, 2017 16:30:30 GMT
What was he supposed to say? Congratulations? I think people are being too hard and reading too much into Eggs line here. He's got his bag over his shoulder. They seem to be standing in a corridor. Which leads me to wonder if he even got a "hello how was your trip" or the courtesy of a "I need to speak with you privately" before the bomb dropped. He just got back. Last he knew Surma and Anthony weren't even good friends let alone romantically linked. Look at Egglamore's face in the first panel. He doesn't look angry or condescending. He looks confused and maybe a little shocked. Everyone in panel one looks shocked. He's speaking slowly as indicated by ellipsis. Personally I'm taking it as legitimate disbelief because it's a lot of new painful) information to process. And frankly, dumping someone with the guy you cheated on him standing right next to you will his longtime friends watch is such an incredibly cruel thing to do that even if he did react with anger or condescension I'm not sure I'd blame him. Because who does that? I don't think Surma has the moral high ground here to be angry that Eglamore is angry. I...actually don't see any jerks on this page. Surma may have been tactless, but maybe she had a reason to break the news in front of Donnie and Anja. We didn't see what happened a couple minutes ago, so it's totally possible she just walked up to James and said "take off you knob, I'm snogging robot boy now", but it's also possible she wasn't given the choice. maybe James reaction in the next page will give us a better clue. I don't think she's angry at James's reaction, just determined. okay, maybe she's a little angry that James is totally blowing off Tony. She just met this amazing person who was right under her nose this whole time, I can see her getting a little defensive. James isn't a jerk either, though, I think that's a perfectly valid response to something that seems so unlikely to him. I'm actually surprised he isn't chuckling.
|
|
|
|
Post by snipertom on Oct 25, 2017 16:38:38 GMT
Last I remember, Annie didn't know that her mother had a relationship with Eglamore. A lot of people could have told her, but I think this is the first time in comic that we've seen Annie confronted with the information. I don't know if she will notice given her state of mind and all the new information about her dad. Maybe a bonus page will show it suddenly hitting her in a "What!?" moment.  This is how I picture it (with less literal lava). Then again...  So it seems she's likely to have known? Also:  Seems to imply that the events where she was tricking Renard in the forest happened earlier. |
|
clover
Junior Member
Posts: 79 
|
Post by clover on Oct 25, 2017 16:45:21 GMT
Where are the people who were insisting that this was all deep and complex and an excellent example of pacing etc.. It is I, Clover! I do quite appreciate the pacing given to this (very important) part of what Annie is, where the union between her parents came from. Warts and all. |
|
|
|
Post by faiiry on Oct 25, 2017 17:18:47 GMT
Just noticed that Eggy is about 2 feet taller than everyone in the room. If I were Tony, I would be cowering in fear. Surma might as well be breaking up with John Cena.
Also, Donny has horrible posture.
|
|
|
|
Post by Rasselas on Oct 25, 2017 17:22:02 GMT
Eglamore is so full of himself and dismissive of Tony. It's like saying, "THAT stole my girlfriend?" Doesn't seem like he had much respect for Tony.
As for teams, I am still on Team Donny, as my sig says.
|
|
|
|
Post by nero on Oct 25, 2017 17:23:07 GMT
Anthony really looks like he has a mask on. I do feel bad for Eglamore because it really happened so suddenly. Surma and Anthony spent a month or more together and just like that his relationship with Surma is over. Now it did happen because their relationship was not very strong at this point and it might have been for the best. I would hope in time Eglamore became real friends with Anthony but he never really got over it. Surma probably thought it best to reveal the breakup in front of everyone because they always hang in a group, and Eglamore might react violently. Surma just has her serious face on so Eglamore knows she's not joking.
Is it really normal for Eglamore to be much taller and older looking than them?
|
|
|
|
Post by spritznar on Oct 25, 2017 17:58:29 GMT
just want to put in my vote for "surma's probably not a jerk for breaking this news before james even puts down his bag"
seriously, what's the first thing significant others do when they meet after being seperated for a long period of time? hug, kiss, express affection and gladness at being reunited. there's no way surma could have done those things without leading james on, so she kind of had to break up with him first thing if she wanted to be honest and upfront about it and minimize the damage she was already doing.
and i read surma's expression as annoyed at james' dismissiveness of her declaration and tony in general
i'm also in the camp of "no one's really the bad guy here so far, just a bunch of messy humans"
|
|
|
|
Post by warrl on Oct 25, 2017 18:01:48 GMT
As for cheating, consider this: once Surma realized she had fallen for Tony, she informed James, face to face, at (what appears to be) the first reasonable opportunity to do so.
She was not, at any point, in supposedly-romantic relationships with both of them.
Sure, it would have been better to let James know she was breaking up with him before hooking up with Tony... but that's what was missing, the "letting know". And she fixed it ASAP.
|
|
|
|
Post by pyradonis on Oct 25, 2017 18:03:28 GMT
Whoever that guy in the middle is, he's freaking huge. Tony looks like before. :\ Another possibility (which paints Eglamore in a bad light) why they are discussing the breakup in front of everyone: Surma wanted to tell him in private, but Eglamore came back and greeted her with: "Oi, chica, what are ya doin' with that nerd there?" What I'm mainly confused about is when does seeing two guys become cheating. In a culture of usually monoamorous relationships like the British one? As soon as at least one of the guys does not know about the other and/or has not given their consent. |
|
