|
|
Post by KMar on Aug 3, 2017 0:37:50 GMT
Pretty sure it's the mother that died. I agree, it makes sense. Though my first reading was that Tony's mishap was that nobody has died yet. He just logically concluded (after the news the father is very sick / dying, maybe with medical particulars he is expert on) that it's impossible for Anja to get home in time to see him alive. "Ah, Hogbart's immolation; he will be dead in few hours." So obviously she will be attending a funeral. "That is fine, Donald..." |
|
|
|
Post by faiiry on Aug 3, 2017 0:42:43 GMT
Three theories -
1) The mother died. Anja wants to visit and comfort her father and attend the funeral.
2) The father died, and when they say "see him", they're talking about his funeral and/or his dead body.
3) He isn't dead yet, but Tony, in his medical wisdom, is making the assumption that he's GOING to be dead before Anja can arrive to see him alive. Don't be a jerk, Tony.
|
|
|
|
Post by jda on Aug 3, 2017 4:23:28 GMT
3) Don't be a jerk, Tony. I think that could be the slogan of the entire comic. |
|
|
|
Post by youwiththeface on Aug 3, 2017 8:17:06 GMT
Happy times.The irony is thick enough to cut with a knife, here. I don't see the irony. He was completely obsessed with saving his wife. At the expense of his daughter's well being. Who is arguably more family than Surma, (given they're related by blood) and who needed him to guide and take care of her in a way Surma never did. What he's encouraging Anja to do is the exact opposite of what he did when Surma died. |
|
|
|
Post by pyradonis on Aug 3, 2017 11:41:30 GMT
I agree with those saying her opinion of him has probably been colored a lot by James. I wonder if their dust up will start with "Hey, that Tony guy? Not so bad actually." That probably wouldn't be that cause of the breakup, but it could easily spiral down from there. I imagine the next time James comes home from training and goes to visit Surma, he will hear laughter coming from her room. When he curiously enters, he finds Surma and Tony standing there, laughing. Surma greets him, Tony becomes stiff again and takes his leave, nodding and saying "James." James is flabbergasted and concludes Tony must have somehow brainwashed Surma, like he must have done with James' mom! (Wait, what?) |
|
|
|
Post by ohthatone on Aug 3, 2017 12:45:05 GMT
I agree with those saying her opinion of him has probably been colored a lot by James. I wonder if their dust up will start with "Hey, that Tony guy? Not so bad actually." That probably wouldn't be that cause of the breakup, but it could easily spiral down from there. I imagine the next time James comes home from training and goes to visit Surma, he will hear laughter coming from her room. When he curiously enters, he finds Surma and Tony standing there, laughing. Surma greets him, Tony becomes stiff again and takes his leave, nodding and saying "James." James is flabbergasted and concludes Tony must have somehow brainwashed Surma, like he must have done with James' mom! (Wait, what?) Not gonna lie, I would laugh like crazy if that's what happened  |
|
|
|
Post by faiiry on Aug 3, 2017 12:47:24 GMT
As much as I'm eager for this chapter to reveal the truth behind all the family drama, there are also some questions I'd like to see expanded on. Like, what happened with Surma's own mother? What is Surma's opinion on her condition and having kids? What is Anthony's special ability? And most importantly: chronologically, when does this take place?  |
|
|
|
Post by todd on Aug 3, 2017 12:48:54 GMT
Coyote says they want to be "gods"... I've said this before, but - while this is how Coyote perceives the Court (or wants Annie to perceive it), is this how the Court perceives itself? I think it more likely that the Court sees what it's doing as simply scientific research and discovery - but because it's experimenting with the ether, its experiments, if they were carried out to their full, would result in so much control over it that it would make them (at least, from the viewpoint of etheric beings like Coyote) gods. But I suspect that the Court hasn't realized this yet. |
|
arzeik
Junior Member
Posts: 77 
|
Post by arzeik on Aug 3, 2017 13:50:22 GMT
It's a bit of a long shot, though, if Tony even has siblings. Has there really been not a single brother or sister in the entire comic? Aside from that fairy family Annie stayed with in the woods. Please go post a new thread where you explain how the lack of siblings is breaking your suspension of disbelief. (Just kidding, please don't hate me too much) |
|
|
|
Post by hp on Aug 3, 2017 15:04:49 GMT
I honestly don't know what Surma is rolling her eyes about. My guess after those 2 pages is, Surma'll propose to join the trip in Donald's place so Tony doesn't have to cancel everything. That's how they'll get close and fall in love |
|
|
|
Post by hp on Aug 3, 2017 15:09:09 GMT
Three theories - 1) The mother died. Anja wants to visit and comfort her father and attend the funeral. 2) The father died, and when they say "see him", they're talking about his funeral and/or his dead body. 3) He isn't dead yet, but Tony, in his medical wisdom, is making the assumption that he's GOING to be dead before Anja can arrive to see him alive. Don't be a jerk, Tony. 3b) He might not be assuming. Maybe Anja's dad isn't dead yet but his condition is terminal |
|
|
|
Post by pyradonis on Aug 3, 2017 16:13:29 GMT
Three theories - 1) The mother died. Anja wants to visit and comfort her father and attend the funeral. 2) The father died, and when they say "see him", they're talking about his funeral and/or his dead body. 3) He isn't dead yet, but Tony, in his medical wisdom, is making the assumption that he's GOING to be dead before Anja can arrive to see him alive. Don't be a jerk, Tony. 3b) He might not be assuming. Maybe Anja's dad isn't dead yet but his condition is terminal Doctors can be very stubborn with that. A friend of mine lived several years longer than the doctors gave her. |
|
|
|
Post by Zox Tomana on Aug 3, 2017 16:41:48 GMT
I don't see the irony. He was completely obsessed with saving his wife. At the expense of his daughter's well being. Who is arguably more family than Surma, (given they're related by blood) and who needed him to guide and take care of her in a way Surma never did. What he's encouraging Anja to do is the exact opposite of what he did when Surma died. I don't see any evidence that his caring for Surma was at Annie's expense. Annie may have had to grow up in a hospital... but she was clearly educated, learned some social skills, and it has been shown that Anthony took the time to teach her self-defense (unfortunately, her social skills at the beginning were very much modeled off her perception of her father, and the strain between that model and what she wants to be like is showing). He put his wife first, which is not an unexpected or unreasonable position to take. Unpopular as the notion seems to be: kids, much less kids' perfect comfort and happiness, do not always come first. And when his efforts to save his wife *failed* he had a personal collapse. He even states that sending Annie to Gunnerkrigg was because he didn't feel he deserved to live with her, or that he felt that she wouldn't want to live with the man who let her mother die. In that sense, his decision to send Annie to Gunnerkrigg and be taken care of there, rather than by himself, was a decision he felt would be better for Annie. Was the decision flawed? Certainly, but his actions cannot be absolutely stated to be in opposition to the sentiment he expresses here. |
|
|
|
Post by Deepbluediver on Aug 3, 2017 18:30:42 GMT
Pictured: Twue Wuv
|
|
|
|
Post by saardvark on Aug 3, 2017 19:18:48 GMT
At the expense of his daughter's well being. Who is arguably more family than Surma, (given they're related by blood) and who needed him to guide and take care of her in a way Surma never did. What he's encouraging Anja to do is the exact opposite of what he did when Surma died. I don't see any evidence that his caring for Surma was at Annie's expense. Annie may have had to grow up in a hospital... but she was clearly educated, learned some social skills, and it has been shown that Anthony took the time to teach her self-defense (unfortunately, her social skills at the beginning were very much modeled off her perception of her father, and the strain between that model and what she wants to be like is showing). He put his wife first, which is not an unexpected or unreasonable position to take. Unpopular as the notion seems to be: kids, much less kids' perfect comfort and happiness, do not always come first. And when his efforts to save his wife *failed* he had a personal collapse. He even states that sending Annie to Gunnerkrigg was because he didn't feel he deserved to live with her, or that he felt that she wouldn't want to live with the man who let her mother die. In that sense, his decision to send Annie to Gunnerkrigg and be taken care of there, rather than by himself, was a decision he felt would be better for Annie. Was the decision flawed? Certainly, but his actions cannot be absolutely stated to be in opposition to the sentiment he expresses here. What could arguably still make Tony's putting his wife first a little more "off" that it might be otherwise is that he continued to "put her first" even after her death, as seen in in all his strenuous efforts to contact her (and possibly bring her back?). This near-maniacal focus, on a near-hopeless possibility, despite the fact that half of who Surma was, her fiery spirit, fire elemental half, was very much still alive and living in his daughter, who, of course could have used a loving parent at that point. He turned his back on his own daughter, who not only carried half of Surma's genes, she even carried *half of Surma*! Maybe it was a half of Surma Tony never fully came to grips with.... but it still seems very odd for Tony to abandon the only half of Surma that was still around, readily accessible and in a human vessel needing his affection and guidance, to somewhat dubious hands of the Court, and go off on a crazed quest for an impossible dream. But I guess that's Tony for ya..... |
|
|
|
Post by Zox Tomana on Aug 3, 2017 22:03:39 GMT
I don't see any evidence that his caring for Surma was at Annie's expense. Annie may have had to grow up in a hospital... but she was clearly educated, learned some social skills, and it has been shown that Anthony took the time to teach her self-defense (unfortunately, her social skills at the beginning were very much modeled off her perception of her father, and the strain between that model and what she wants to be like is showing). He put his wife first, which is not an unexpected or unreasonable position to take. Unpopular as the notion seems to be: kids, much less kids' perfect comfort and happiness, do not always come first. And when his efforts to save his wife *failed* he had a personal collapse. He even states that sending Annie to Gunnerkrigg was because he didn't feel he deserved to live with her, or that he felt that she wouldn't want to live with the man who let her mother die. In that sense, his decision to send Annie to Gunnerkrigg and be taken care of there, rather than by himself, was a decision he felt would be better for Annie. Was the decision flawed? Certainly, but his actions cannot be absolutely stated to be in opposition to the sentiment he expresses here. What could arguably still make Tony's putting his wife first a little more "off" that it might be otherwise is that he continued to "put her first" even after her death, as seen in in all his strenuous efforts to contact her (and possibly bring her back?). This near-maniacal focus, on a near-hopeless possibility, despite the fact that half of who Surma was, her fiery spirit, fire elemental half, was very much still alive and living in his daughter, who, of course could have used a loving parent at that point. He turned his back on his own daughter, who not only carried half of Surma's genes, she even carried *half of Surma*! Maybe it was a half of Surma Tony never fully came to grips with.... but it still seems very odd for Tony to abandon the only half of Surma that was still around, readily accessible and in a human vessel needing his affection and guidance, to somewhat dubious hands of the Court, and go off on a crazed quest for an impossible dream. But I guess that's Tony for ya..... I think the best response to this is the reiteration of Tony's direct questioning "how could [Annie] live with the man that killed her mother?" If he feels incapable of raising her because of his guilt over Surma, where else would he send her besides the Court? Even if he doesn't necessarily trust the higher echelons of the Court (see him removing surveillance devices from his home, calling the Omega project "dammed"), he *does* trust the Donlans, and even if he beefed with Eglamore I bet he knew Eglamore would keep Surma's daughter safe. Why did he send Annie away? The same reason he kept pursuing after the memory of Surma, and the same probable reason he has yet to allow himself to be open with his daughter: Guilt, plain and pure. He probably still thinks of himself as the man who killed Surma, and is only "subjecting Annie to his presence" to keep the Court happy. |
|
|
|
Post by fia on Aug 3, 2017 22:22:09 GMT
I am not sure either that Tony's line in this page is hypocritical. Have you ever had the love of your life die on you? I'm sure that being eternally this tight-assed shower of no emotions, Tony was in the absolute worst position to know how to deal or what the "right" thing to do was. He was completely swamped by grief, and probably emotionally unavailable to Annie. Of course this doesn't give him points for being a good father, naturally he was a terrible father because of his grief, but I think I've largely stopped thinking of him in that period as a jerk.
He's more of a jerk for how he behaved toward Annie when he came back to the Court. Three years later, he should be able to deal at least a little, at least enough to try to understand Annie's own grief. But he was too full of self-loathing to consider actually being her father in a more active way than checking her work, I think, until Donnie got him to talk and Coyote gave him a good emotional smacking.
He probably thinks it is more rational to bottle himself up (he might even think he is less dangerous that way) and be distant than to actually let his emotions out, but naturally this is the opposite of what is the case, as Annie herself is recently learning. So yeah, he comes across as a jerk. But he just has 0 emotional intelligence.
Probably he loves Annie a lot but feels ashamed of himself. At the same time, he seems to have some narcissism in his personality (I mean this in the clinical, not colloquial, sense) and so takes up Annie's faults as if they were his own, hence his super awful statements apologizing for Annie at dinner with the Donlans. He probably thinks this is all his own mess to clean up, and if he were perfect as he is now not, then he would have been a better father and been there for her and she would therefore not have cheated in class or made friends with an assassin demon or the enemy leader in the forest. But more importantly, he probably thinks that if he were perfect Annie's mother would never have died and therefore all of everything is his fault, the end. So Annie, in his mind, might well have a right to hate him.
I imagine his willingness to put others before himself, as on the current page, is one of his signature traits, but that it probably stems from self-loathing. Maybe the Brinnie debacle was similar – maybe he just didn't believe he was lovable? Or maybe he didn't want to go out with her but wasn't brave enough to say that out loud out of terror of hurting anyone's feelings?
Anyway. I, for one, am looking forward to more Tony revelations in this chapter.
|
|
|
|
Post by saardvark on Aug 3, 2017 23:51:02 GMT
What could arguably still make Tony's putting his wife first a little more "off" that it might be otherwise is that he continued to "put her first" even after her death, as seen in in all his strenuous efforts to contact her (and possibly bring her back?). This near-maniacal focus, on a near-hopeless possibility, despite the fact that half of who Surma was, her fiery spirit, fire elemental half, was very much still alive and living in his daughter, who, of course could have used a loving parent at that point. He turned his back on his own daughter, who not only carried half of Surma's genes, she even carried *half of Surma*! Maybe it was a half of Surma Tony never fully came to grips with.... but it still seems very odd for Tony to abandon the only half of Surma that was still around, readily accessible and in a human vessel needing his affection and guidance, to somewhat dubious hands of the Court, and go off on a crazed quest for an impossible dream. But I guess that's Tony for ya..... I think the best response to this is the reiteration of Tony's direct questioning "how could [Annie] live with the man that killed her mother?" If he feels incapable of raising her because of his guilt over Surma, where else would he send her besides the Court? Even if he doesn't necessarily trust the higher echelons of the Court (see him removing surveillance devices from his home, calling the Omega project "dammed"), he *does* trust the Donlans, and even if he beefed with Eglamore I bet he knew Eglamore would keep Surma's daughter safe. Why did he send Annie away? The same reason he kept pursuing after the memory of Surma, and the same probable reason he has yet to allow himself to be open with his daughter: Guilt, plain and pure. He probably still thinks of himself as the man who killed Surma, and is only "subjecting Annie to his presence" to keep the Court happy. Im sure you are right. Im just saying that there were other ways Tony could have reacted that were consistent with his obsessive love of Surma that could have potentially worked out better for Annie (and maybe him too). But I guess guilt drove him in the direction he took.... |
|
|
|
Post by faiiry on Aug 4, 2017 1:06:34 GMT
I am almost tempted to take a Gunnerkrigg hiatus until like October and binge this chapter then, when it's finished or near finished. I don't want to wait - I want to read it all at once! My beans are on fire!
Of course, but then I would miss out on all the lively discussion and panel-by-panel analysis here on the forum, and God knows I'd never skip that.
|
|
|
|
Post by youwiththeface on Aug 4, 2017 2:13:10 GMT
At the expense of his daughter's well being. Who is arguably more family than Surma, (given they're related by blood) and who needed him to guide and take care of her in a way Surma never did. What he's encouraging Anja to do is the exact opposite of what he did when Surma died. I don't see any evidence that his caring for Surma was at Annie's expense. Annie may have had to grow up in a hospital... but she was clearly educated, learned some social skills, and it has been shown that Anthony took the time to teach her self-defense (unfortunately, her social skills at the beginning were very much modeled off her perception of her father, and the strain between that model and what she wants to be like is showing). Well I could point out Annie's crying during A Handful of Dirt; how like Tony she was grieving and how unlike Tony she was a child who would have far less experience dealing with and understanding grief and that as her father he had an obligation to her. I could point out that he never told her what she was and she could very easily have gotten herself a boyfriend and gotten pregnant without knowing what was in store for her in the years he wasn't in her life. I could point out that Annie does reckless and at times stupid things because it's clear from a young age she felt she had to depend on herself because she couldn't depend on her parents. (With her mom this is understandable. With her dad not so much.) I could point out that the way he reappeared in her life caused her to spiritually mutilate herself. Or I could go the quick and easy route and point to what he did to her in Divine, and say that there's no telling what would've happened to Annie had there been no Zimmy at the Court to help her. He put his wife first, which is not an unexpected or unreasonable position to take. Unpopular as the notion seems to be: kids, much less kids' perfect comfort and happiness, do not always come first. We're not talking about a kid's 'perfect comfort and happiness'. We're talking about a child being allowed to know if their father has abandoned them, or if he is even still alive. That is literally the least of what he could've done for her and he didn't do it. It is unreasonable. A spouse is a grown person who has their own set of responsibilities and capabilities for themselves and for others and who you are not personally responsible for the way you are for a child. And not only was Surma DEAD, she CHOSE that path; her having a child meant she was okay with having to die to do so. They both knew that she was going to die because she had Annie and Anthony still couldn't deal with it even though it was her choice and he'd been given years to prepare. I mean, is there any clearer way to say how Tony was going against Surma's wishes? Him neglecting Annie to get Surma back when she was happy to die just to get the child he was neglecting? When you have a kid, you have a duty to that kid. The idea that you might owe your spouse more than your kid is actually a dangerous one; if your spouse is abusive towards your child, do you let that abuse go on out of loyalty to the spouse? Because of how much you love them and how hard their life may have been? No. You try to stop them and if you can't you get the child and yourself the fuck out of there. |
|
|
|
Post by saardvark on Aug 4, 2017 2:13:11 GMT
I am almost tempted to take a Gunnerkrigg hiatus until like October and binge this chapter then, when it's finished or near finished. I don't want to wait - I want to read it all at once! My beans are on fire! Of course, but then I would miss out on all the lively discussion and panel-by-panel analysis here on the forum, and God knows I'd never skip that. and you would have to reheat your beans all over again... so much wasted energy! Best to keep them toasty and keep reading.....  |
|
|
|
Post by faiiry on Aug 4, 2017 3:08:59 GMT
I am almost tempted to take a Gunnerkrigg hiatus until like October and binge this chapter then, when it's finished or near finished. I don't want to wait - I want to read it all at once! My beans are on fire! Of course, but then I would miss out on all the lively discussion and panel-by-panel analysis here on the forum, and God knows I'd never skip that. and you would have to reheat your beans all over again... so much wasted energy! Best to keep them toasty and keep reading..... Exactly correct! My beans are going to continue roasting over the fire indefinitely. |
|
|
|
Post by saardvark on Aug 4, 2017 4:25:13 GMT
and you would have to reheat your beans all over again... so much wasted energy! Best to keep them toasty and keep reading..... Exactly correct! My beans are going to continue roasting over the fire indefinitely. and everyone knows you gotta roast the beans to make the best coffee... here's to caffeination! |
|
|
|
Post by Zox Tomana on Aug 4, 2017 5:56:21 GMT
Well I could point out Annie's crying during A Handful of Dirt; how like Tony she was grieving and how unlike Tony she was a child who would have far less experience dealing with and understanding grief and that as her father he had an obligation to her. I could point out that he never told her what she was and she could very easily have gotten herself a boyfriend and gotten pregnant without knowing what was in store for her in the years he wasn't in her life. I could point out that Annie does reckless and at times stupid things because it's clear from a young age she felt she had to depend on herself because she couldn't depend on her parents. (With her mom this is understandable. With her dad not so much.) I could point out that the way he reappeared in her life caused her to spiritually mutilate herself. Or I could go the quick and easy route and point to what he did to her in Divine, and say that there's no telling what would've happened to Annie had there been no Zimmy at the Court to help her. Ahh, that thing he did to her in Divine... that thing that he didn't really know how it worked... or that it would affect Annie in any way... totally a conscious decision to screw over his daughter... yeah... No. We don't know why Annie had no idea about her heritage. For all we know, it was Surma's choice to withhold details. And I feel the current story shows that she did in fact feel comfortable depending on her Mother: recall the story of Annie's first proper experience mediating for the Psychopomps with the Fire-Boy; Annie clearly trusted her mother and was comfortable relying on her word. Her father? There is clearly distance between them even when Annie is young, but I have no story evidence that (at the time) she felt she could not rely on him or that she was neglected by him during that time. His inability to help Annie grieve is, hell, being shown as an established problem in the current chapter! Tony finds it easy to close himself off, difficult to open up, and I can only imagine that his guilt over his wife's death exacerbated such things. His revealed disappearance during Handful of Dirt certainly shows us a dick-move on his part, but nothing that isn't fully explained by previous discussion regarding his guilt complex. And his dickish reappearance is dickish, but in previous posts I have pointed to it being done for Annie's sake, even though it has been an exceptionally crapulent effort. His actions since coming back have been, ultimately, for Annie's protection. He's just terrible in execution. We're not talking about a kid's 'perfect comfort and happiness'. We're talking about a child being allowed to know if their father has abandoned them, or if he is even still alive. That is literally the least of what he could've done for her and he didn't do it. It is unreasonable. A spouse is a grown person who has their own set of responsibilities and capabilities for themselves and for others and who you are not personally responsible for the way you are for a child. And not only was Surma DEAD, she CHOSE that path; her having a child meant she was okay with having to die to do so. They both knew that she was going to die because she had Annie and Anthony still couldn't deal with it even though it was her choice and he'd been given years to prepare. I mean, is there any clearer way to say how Tony was going against Surma's wishes? Him neglecting Annie to get Surma back when she was happy to die just to get the child he was neglecting? When you have a kid, you have a duty to that kid. The idea that you might owe your spouse more than your kid is actually a dangerous one; if your spouse is abusive towards your child, do you let that abuse go on out of loyalty to the spouse? Because of how much you love them and how hard their life may have been? No. You try to stop them and if you can't you get the child and yourself the fuck out of there. And when you enter in a marriage with someone you have a duty to that person as well, and putting your child ahead of that can jeopardize your relationship with that person. There's a balance to be struck here. And there is a huge difference between putting forward your main efforts to save your dying spouse at the theoretical expense of spending more time with your perfectly safe child... and protecting your child from real, physical, life-threatening harm. Both are matters of life and death, but the latter involves purposeful malevolence (many times under the guise of benevolence) toward a defenseless party. The former is a matter of not entirely being there for all the birthdays: a situation faced by many families whose fathers aren't trying to fulfill a promise to keep the mother from dying due to etheric causes beyond their understanding. What happened after Surma's death is another matter entirely, but still not comparable to child abuse. (I might also point out that a spouse who abuses the children is very likely also in violation of their duty toward their spouse, either directly or indirectly, and is also flat breaking the law.) Tony did not simply walk out on Annie: he did in fact arrange for her to be educated, to have a roof over her head, clothes on her back, and food on her plate; and that in a place where he knew for a fact that there were people who would care for and protect Annie (the Donlans and Eglamore). I did not intend to deny that Anthony's abandonment of Annie to the Court was a bad decision. I have put forth reasons why he did it, but I apologize that the language I have used indicates that those reasons are sufficient to absolve him of blame. They are not. I simply feel that unreserved chastisement of the man is not warranted given his displayed issues, and his obvious guilt complex regarding the fate of his wife and the shame he feels by "imposing" his presence on his daughter. These are powerful motivators of humankind, and it is unfair to discount their influence on Tony. The shattering of his prideful assumption that he could save Surma, his guilt over her fate, his shame towards Annie... followed by further guilt and shame after he learned what he'd done by making the antenna of blood and bone... the shock of seeing his daughter and how much she resembled her mother... Tony is outwardly a stoic, but we've been shown that internally he roils with emotion and uncertainty. He should have opened up to Annie, helped her grieve, told her what he knew of her nature, should have taken her to the Court himself and been her caretaker... I deny none of this. I simply wish to put forward a theory of why he did not, a theory taking into account that people are not perfect, that people can falter and fall. |
|
|
|
Post by youwiththeface on Aug 4, 2017 8:07:51 GMT
Well I could point out Annie's crying during A Handful of Dirt; how like Tony she was grieving and how unlike Tony she was a child who would have far less experience dealing with and understanding grief and that as her father he had an obligation to her. I could point out that he never told her what she was and she could very easily have gotten herself a boyfriend and gotten pregnant without knowing what was in store for her in the years he wasn't in her life. I could point out that Annie does reckless and at times stupid things because it's clear from a young age she felt she had to depend on herself because she couldn't depend on her parents. (With her mom this is understandable. With her dad not so much.) I could point out that the way he reappeared in her life caused her to spiritually mutilate herself. Or I could go the quick and easy route and point to what he did to her in Divine, and say that there's no telling what would've happened to Annie had there been no Zimmy at the Court to help her. Ahh, that thing he did to her in Divine... that thing that he didn't really know how it worked... or that it would affect Annie in any way... totally a conscious decision to screw over his daughter... yeah... No. For one, that's moving the goal posts. You were saying that Tony's not being there for Annie was not at her expense. You didn't say anything about him having to purposely hurt her. For another, it doesn't matter that he didn't know that's what he was doing. He still hurt her. Maybe almost killed her. And he seemed to understand that's what he did afterward, but he still brushed off her asking about his hand by asking her if it was her business when he knew that it was. He accidentally physically abused her, and didn't apologize or even let her know what it was that had happened to her. How he handled that whole situations is screwed up on a couple of different levels. We don't know why Annie had no idea about her heritage. For all we know, it was Surma's choice to withhold details. If Surma didn't want Annie to ever know, then that was a bad call on her part and Tony should've been able to see the obvious problems with that. If Surma didn't want her to know until later, then it would be Anthony's job to tell Annie about herself after Surma passed. Certainly one of them should've figured out why it would be a good idea for Annie to know about her nature before she hit puberty. And I feel the current story shows that she did in fact feel comfortable depending on her Mother: recall the story of Annie's first proper experience mediating for the Psychopomps with the Fire-Boy; Annie clearly trusted her mother and was comfortable relying on her word. Her father? There is clearly distance between them even when Annie is young, but I have no story evidence that (at the time) she felt she could not rely on him or that she was neglected by him during that time. Perhaps more will be revealed to us later, but for now we've seen far, far more of young!Annie with her mom than with her dad. We've actually seen, on multiple occasions, Annie talking with her mom, none with her dad. We even, very pointedly, get a scene with Annie cutting her hand because she tried to clean up glass herself, against her mother's wishes, which is in line with her behavior at the court. Not only that, but her distrust and secrecy around adults in the earlier chapters points to a child who didn't have a lot of reliable adults in her life to take care of her or set boundaries for her. Up to this point, all evidence points to Annie being able to depend on her (sick and dying) mother more than her completely healthy father. His revealed disappearance during Handful of Dirt certainly shows us a dick-move on his part, but nothing that isn't fully explained by previous discussion regarding his guilt complex. It's explained. Not excused. And his dickish reappearance is dickish, but in previous posts I have pointed to it being done for Annie's sake, even though it has been an exceptionally crapulent effort. His actions since coming back have been, ultimately, for Annie's protection. He's just terrible in execution. This here is an example of magical intentions. The idea that even if you hurt someone, as long as you didn't mean to, then it's okay. It's not. That's why manslaughter's a thing. I don't care about what Anthony thinks, I care about what he does, and what he does has hurt Antimony. We're not talking about a kid's 'perfect comfort and happiness'. We're talking about a child being allowed to know if their father has abandoned them, or if he is even still alive. That is literally the least of what he could've done for her and he didn't do it. It is unreasonable. A spouse is a grown person who has their own set of responsibilities and capabilities for themselves and for others and who you are not personally responsible for the way you are for a child. And not only was Surma DEAD, she CHOSE that path; her having a child meant she was okay with having to die to do so. They both knew that she was going to die because she had Annie and Anthony still couldn't deal with it even though it was her choice and he'd been given years to prepare. I mean, is there any clearer way to say how Tony was going against Surma's wishes? Him neglecting Annie to get Surma back when she was happy to die just to get the child he was neglecting? When you have a kid, you have a duty to that kid. The idea that you might owe your spouse more than your kid is actually a dangerous one; if your spouse is abusive towards your child, do you let that abuse go on out of loyalty to the spouse? Because of how much you love them and how hard their life may have been? No. You try to stop them and if you can't you get the child and yourself the fuck out of there. And when you enter in a marriage with someone you have a duty to that person as well, and putting your child ahead of that can jeopardize your relationship with that person. The child is still more important than your relationship with your spouse. You didn't create and thereby are responsible for the well-being of your spouse. There's a balance to be struck here. And there is a huge difference between putting forward your main efforts to save your dying spouse at the theoretical expense of spending more time with your perfectly safe child... and protecting your child from real, physical, life-threatening harm. Both are matters of life and death, but the latter involves purposeful malevolence (many times under the guise of benevolence) toward a defenseless party. We're not talking about Anthony trying to save Surma from the hazards of her biology before she passed away. We're talking about him pursuing her after she'd already died instead of taking care of her daughter. Worrying about a woman who's already gone as opposed to her child, who's still alive and still needs a parent in her life. The former is a matter of not entirely being there for all the birthdays: a situation faced by many families whose fathers aren't trying to fulfill a promise to keep the mother from dying due to etheric causes beyond their understanding. Stop downplaying this. A child is not some kind of spoiled princess for wanting to see their goddamn parent. That is what parents are FOR. And we don't actually know that what Anthony missed was only 'all the birthdays'. Besides which, if Anthony was only ever going to spend all his time trying to save Surma and none with Antimony, there was no reason for him to have a child with Surma at all. In the scenario where he doesn't, he doesn't have to save her and he spends only a little less time with Antimony as he does in the cannon comic. What happened after Surma's death is another matter entirely, but still not comparable to child abuse. Tony did not simply walk out on Annie: he did in fact arrange for her to be educated, to have a roof over her head, clothes on her back, and food on her plate; and that in a place where he knew for a fact that there were people who would care for and protect Annie (the Donlans and Eglamore). Yes it is abuse. It's emotional abuse and neglect. Far as we know, Tony never relinquished guardianship of Annie. He's still her legal guardian, which means that he's responsible for her. Not the court, or the people therein. He shouldn't be pawning off his daughter on other people, especially without even asking them first. And what if he'd been wrong about the Donlans or Eglamore being able or wanting to take care of Annie? (If that was even something that crossed his mind at all.) Well, then Annie would've been shit out of luck, wouldn't she? And while those people have helped they're certainly not her parents and they've done almost nothing to guide or protect her from the dangerous things she's run into at the court. Hell, if it weren't for COYOTE, (a psychotic trickster god) she wouldn't even know what she was. And if it weren't for Renard she wouldn't even know how her mom died. She should not have had to learn all that from strangers. The idea that abuse only starts with a child being physically hurt (struck or starved) is bull. Hell, Coyote and Ysengrin's relationship has been directly compared to Annie and Anthony's.....would you say what Coyote does to Ysengrin's memories isn't abuse, since it doesn't physically hurt him? I did not intend to deny that Anthony's abandonment of Annie to the Court was a bad decision. I have put forth reasons why he did it, but I apologize that the language I have used indicates that those reasons are sufficient to absolve him of blame. They are not. I simply feel that unreserved chastisement of the man is not warranted given his displayed issues, and his obvious guilt complex regarding the fate of his wife and the shame he feels by "imposing" his presence on his daughter. These are powerful motivators of humankind, and it is unfair to discount their influence on Tony. The shattering of his prideful assumption that he could save Surma, his guilt over her fate, his shame towards Annie... followed by further guilt and shame after he learned what he'd done by making the antenna of blood and bone... the shock of seeing his daughter and how much she resembled her mother... Tony is outwardly a stoic, but we've been shown that internally he roils with emotion and uncertainty. See, the thing is, none of that matters when you have someone who depends on you. All of that sucks for him, but when you have a kid, that's too fucking bad. He's wallowing so much in his own pain he doesn't realize for even a minute that ANNIE is in just as much pain, and more. SHE didn't know that her mother was going to die like he did, so she couldn't prepare like he could. SHE not only lost her mom but had to start over in a whole new dangerous place all alone. SHE was the one who wasn't human and had to figure out her abilities and identity with no adults helping her. And it didn't have to be that way. He could've helped her. He could've given her insight both into her mother and herself. He could've given her a sense of support when more than one huge pillar of her world had come crashing down around her. Instead he focused on his own pain and guilt. When you're a parent, you don't get to focus on your own pain at the expense of your child. Your job is to make sure your kid's okay, then deal with your own issues. If you can't do that then you shouldn't have kids. My feeling is not that Tony didn't have his reasons for what he's done, my feeling is that they were shit reasons. |
|
|
|
Post by Runningflame on Aug 4, 2017 17:51:42 GMT
I am not sure either that Tony's line in this page is hypocritical. Have you ever had the love of your life die on you? I'm sure that being eternally this tight-assed shower of no emotions, Tony was in the absolute worst position to know how to deal or what the "right" thing to do was. He was completely swamped by grief, and probably emotionally unavailable to Annie. Of course this doesn't give him points for being a good father, naturally he was a terrible father because of his grief, but I think I've largely stopped thinking of him in that period as a jerk. He's more of a jerk for how he behaved toward Annie when he came back to the Court. Three years later, he should be able to deal at least a little, at least enough to try to understand Annie's own grief. But he was too full of self-loathing to consider actually being her father in a more active way than checking her work, I think, until Donnie got him to talk and Coyote gave him a good emotional smacking. He probably thinks it is more rational to bottle himself up (he might even think he is less dangerous that way) and be distant than to actually let his emotions out, but naturally this is the opposite of what is the case, as Annie herself is recently learning. So yeah, he comes across as a jerk. But he just has 0 emotional intelligence. Probably he loves Annie a lot but feels ashamed of himself. At the same time, he seems to have some narcissism in his personality (I mean this in the clinical, not colloquial, sense) and so takes up Annie's faults as if they were his own, hence his super awful statements apologizing for Annie at dinner with the Donlans. He probably thinks this is all his own mess to clean up, and if he were perfect as he is now not, then he would have been a better father and been there for her and she would therefore not have cheated in class or made friends with an assassin demon or the enemy leader in the forest. But more importantly, he probably thinks that if he were perfect Annie's mother would never have died and therefore all of everything is his fault, the end. So Annie, in his mind, might well have a right to hate him. I imagine his willingness to put others before himself, as on the current page, is one of his signature traits, but that it probably stems from self-loathing. Maybe the Brinnie debacle was similar – maybe he just didn't believe he was lovable? Or maybe he didn't want to go out with her but wasn't brave enough to say that out loud out of terror of hurting anyone's feelings? Anyway. I, for one, am looking forward to more Tony revelations in this chapter. This is a great analysis! Let me just add that we've also seen some of these traits in Annie (for example, pushing her friend away because she was afraid of pushing her friend away). |
|
|
|
Post by warrl on Aug 5, 2017 6:57:10 GMT
A friend of mine lived several years longer than the doctors gave her. My father lived several decades longer than the doctor who told him he wouldn't live long. |
|
