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Post by TBeholder on May 14, 2017 0:30:01 GMT
I now see Anthony, indeed we have been encouraged to see Anthony, as a bumbling, miserable fool involved in affairs much larger than himself that he doesn't perfectly understand and is capable of making only ineffectual attempts to direct. In dealing with people Anthony is, well, someone whose life is daily struggle to not drown in a teaspoon. Surma, for all her impulsiveness and miscalculations, had enough wiles that if she made a decision, Anthony could as well be playing Calvinball against Coyote. In other words, Muut was incorrect - there WAS something left of Surma to take into the ether. And that's the psychopomps' job. So the question is: was he mistaken, or was he lying? With what else we've seen - they can't mess with the living, but they can manipulate others into doing so; they can't mess with the living, unless the living agree to incur a debt to them - I suspect Muut was lying. Not necessarily. Nothing left that would NOT pass beyond, thus nothing for psychopomps to collect. A shadow without any obols. |
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Post by saardvark on May 14, 2017 1:34:25 GMT
In other words, Muut was incorrect - there WAS something left of Surma to take into the ether. And that's the psychopomps' job. So the question is: was he mistaken, or was he lying? With what else we've seen - they can't mess with the living, but they can manipulate others into doing so; they can't mess with the living, unless the living agree to incur a debt to them - I suspect Muut was lying. The whole thing is a bit paradoxical. There was nothing to take, but Annie still had to take Surma herself. I don't think Muut is the type to lie or manipulate, but who knows. Maybe it's because Annie, instead of taking Surma to the ether, took over. Completed the transference. Took the entire elemental/etheric essence into herself, and there was nothing left for Surma, so at that point she was fully dead. This makes more sense than there being a human counterpart that gets taken to the ether. But yeah, this does mean that the elemental's soul is effectively eternal or immortal, if it never gets taken into the ether. Although, if Annie died without having a child, of other causes, the elemental dies too. Sooo... not really. Maybe this makes sense if Mutt meant there was nothing left for *him* to take into the ether. (Torontoregonian and TBeholder are saying some things along these lines as well, it seems.) What if the pomps take the spirit/essence, and only take the body-shell since it is (usually) attached/connected to it. Surma, whose spirit/essence was passed on to Annie thru the fire elemental, had only her body-shell remaining (almost like a hollow fairy). Perhaps the pomps don't view the body-shell as important or "take-able"... or even couldn't take it without an attached spirit. So poor Annie (being a less rule-bound human-elemental hybrid) had to do it.... |
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Post by warrl on May 14, 2017 16:47:20 GMT
I don't think Muut is the type to lie or manipulate, but who knows. , and Mort know. Muut is quite willing to manipulate. Outright lie, well, that's more speculative - considering that the closest thing to a clear incident of it can also be explained as him believing something that isn't true. Annie had seen the boy taken into the ether. I think she'd be able to tell the difference between that and absorbing her mother's essence into herself. Maybe this makes sense if Mutt meant there was nothing left for *him* to take into the ether. (Torontoregonian and TBeholder are saying some things along these lines as well, it seems.) What if the pomps take the spirit/essence, and only take the body-shell since it is (usually) attached/connected to it. Surma, whose spirit/essence was passed on to Annie thru the fire elemental, had only her body-shell remaining (almost like a hollow fairy). Perhaps the pomps don't view the body-shell as important or "take-able"... or even couldn't take it without an attached spirit. So poor Annie (being a less rule-bound human-elemental hybrid) had to do it.... We've seen no evidence or suggestion that the psychopomps EVER take bodies. On the other hand, we've seen few dead bodies. |
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Post by csj on May 14, 2017 16:54:07 GMT
Dear oh dear, this discussion about the nature of Surma is really starting to veer towards christology. There's not enough to definitively say whether or not Surma had ceased to exist(metaphysically at least) when she was taken into the ether. She - and Annie - may be dualistic beings, being both human and the etheric personification of fire. However, the way in which both those elements are combined may or may not disprove whether some (presumably 'human') part of Surma did in fact exist for her to take.
Oh boy though, I really hope we don't start talking about 'hypostatic union' or something
e: What a topic for my 666th post xD
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Post by Rasselas on May 14, 2017 18:18:12 GMT
I don't think Muut is the type to lie or manipulate, but who knows. , and Mort know. Muut is quite willing to manipulate. Outright lie, well, that's more speculative - considering that the closest thing to a clear incident of it can also be explained as him believing something that isn't true. Hmmmm. I don't think he'd lie about this particular thing, that there wasn't anything of Surma to take. What does he gain from forcing Annie to take Surma? It only antagonized her and made her unwilling to cooperate. Maybe it's because Annie, instead of taking Surma to the ether, took over. Completed the transference. Took the entire elemental/etheric essence into herself, and there was nothing left for Surma, so at that point she was fully dead. This makes more sense than there being a human counterpart that gets taken to the ether. Annie had seen the boy taken into the ether. I think she'd be able to tell the difference between that and absorbing her mother's essence into herself. Good point, but perhaps the difference just isn't that glaring in the way this happens. Annie has been a part of that process since she was born, and here it was just finalized. She herself said there was nothing to take into the ether. She would've seen that, too. So basically, the process was just Annie saying a final goodbye to Surma. |
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Post by mordekai on May 14, 2017 19:05:02 GMT
Scary thought: What if Muut and the others aren't really interested in recruiting Annie, but they just want to be able to prevent her from having babies? That way they could collect her "essence" (whatever part of her soul was passed down to her daughter instead of going to the Ether when she died) when she dies...
I'm thinking, maybe Annie is going to get chummy with a kid, and Muut appears and ask her to join him NOW!.
Somebody has said that the Psychopomps may take some kind of spiritual juice out of the spirits they guide to the Ether... maybe that is what they are going after... or maybe they are just angry that Annie's line has avoided the "proper" fate of all souls for so long and they want to put an end to it...
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Post by phantaskippy on May 15, 2017 4:33:15 GMT
I think Annie had to do it because there wasn't anything to return to the ether, Surma's life force was in Annie, when she died her life force didn't return to the Earth, it finished transferring to Annie.
But Annie didn't take Surma's memory, personality or will. She took her life force, but not her spirit. So the part that was Surma got to receive a proper send off, but the Psychopomps had nothing to claim and return to the ether.
That's my impression of what was going on there.
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Post by pyradonis on May 15, 2017 14:45:32 GMT
Hold on, people, where did Muut say that there was nothing for the 'pomps to take? "There was nothing to take" was said by Reynardine. Muut, if I remember correctly, only ever admitted that "none of [the psychopomps] came for her". Ysengrin was frequently drawn like this as well in single stylized flashback panels. |
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Post by Zox Tomana on May 17, 2017 5:15:23 GMT
Hold on, people, where did Muut say that there was nothing for the 'pomps to take? "There was nothing to take" was said by Reynardine. Muut, if I remember correctly, only ever admitted that "none of [the psychopomps] came for her". Tom has confirmed that the Psychopomps didn't come because "what was left wasn't what they're interested in." (<-- paraphrase) So there was something left to be taken into the ether... but the spirit/power that had been passed to Annie apparently also involved a something which is that Psychopomps are interested in. |
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