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Post by Nepycros on Mar 13, 2017 17:54:30 GMT
RIP Annie's self-esteem. Even setting aside the arguments about how justified either side is, this is gonna mess Annie up for a while.
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Post by casualobserver on Mar 13, 2017 19:12:46 GMT
Annie and the group just saved the whole show and everyone knew Jeanne had a propensity for swinging around her sword and cutting people. Nobody went into it without a bit of trepidation. So now, AFTER the fact, AFTER the essential victory, Red rants about how dangerous it all was for the little lambs being unknowingly led to possible slaughter?!
It reeks of INGRATITUDE!
Besides, I don't particularly like the name or the way it was selected. It was a cya on Red's part. What in the world would make THAT a good name?
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Mar 13, 2017 19:35:13 GMT
I suppose part of growing up is realizing that other people will critique you whenever you do or say pretty much anything. Sometimes it's justified, sometimes it's just static, but often there's some of both. One thing the internet is great at is helping people develop thick skin (and a strong stomach). I don't know what knowledge you think Annie might have gotten from Jones, but Jones' knowledge of Jeanne came from Annie. It is true that Jones has some sort of relationship with the RotD, or at least some pull, as the installation of Mort demonstrated. Jones likely knew absolutely nothing about Jeanne in particular but may have been a very good resource on murderous ghosts in general (though Antimony may have asked some generic questions at some point as part of medium-lessons and it just wasn't in the comic). Annie and the group just saved the whole show and everyone knew Jeanne had a propensity for swinging around her sword and cutting people. Nobody went into it without a bit of trepidation. So now, AFTER the fact, AFTER the essential victory, Red rants about how dangerous it all was for the little lambs being unknowingly led to possible slaughter?! It reeks of INGRATITUDE! Yeah Red's emotional reevaluation of her relationship with Ayilu is what's driving this, not any deception on Antimony's part or any new facts come to light. The way she feels NOW she would have (maybe) tried to stop Ayilu from participating so... she must have been manipulated... by Antimony... because Red wouldn't have ever let Ayilu go into danger. Yes. That must be it. Besides, I don't particularly like the name or the way it was selected. It was a cya on Red's part. What in the world would make THAT a good name? I dunno. The chapter isn't over yet. There's still an outside chance that "Ayilu" won't stick. |
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Post by Runningflame on Mar 13, 2017 21:46:13 GMT
And stuff like this mess is why we teach kids to go to adults when there's a serious problem. Except - what to do when the adults, if they knew about that problem, would either see it as useful to them (based on what we've seen on the present-day Court administration, if they knew about Jeanne, they'd want her to go on being stuck as a vengeful ghost to keep out the forest-folk) or have to take orders from the ones who see it as useful and would be in a compromising situation if they found out. Except Parley and Smitty have to take orders from the administration as well, theoretically. And Donald, at least, has shown a proclivity for going where he's not supposed to. And Eglamore practically encourages Annie to break the rules (and is quite negative toward "the bureaucracy"). I'd say there are plenty of adults who would have helped them and not told anyone. At the very least, they could have told Jones-- who specifically asked Annie to do so once she had enough information. |
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Post by keef on Mar 13, 2017 22:08:09 GMT
I thought that may be the case, but I kinda think it looks more like some British military uniforms than period Soviet ones. Would have to ask Tom about where the inspiration is from, I suppose. If I may...   The Chinese Red Guards. They had a reputation for publicly humiliating their victims by means of (far fetched) criticism. Must be a coincidence. |
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Post by OGRuddawg on Mar 13, 2017 23:18:21 GMT
I have one major bone to pick with Red's question on this page. It looks like Red is playing on Annie's now-shaken self-confidence in her friends' choice to help. Kat, Parley, and Smitty all agreed to help of their own volition, and reaffirmed that when they went along with the planning and execution. When Annie approached Kat and gave her the job of taking care of the arrow, she was operating under the assumption that Kat was still on board with the plan and was trying to up Kat's confidence in containing the device. Annie was not using that conversation to coerce Kat into doing something she didn't want to do. That is a completely different approach than the one used for the fairies' part in the plan. Using an apples-to-oranges comparison like this is honestly pretty low of Red.
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Post by todd on Mar 14, 2017 0:23:46 GMT
Except - what to do when the adults, if they knew about that problem, would either see it as useful to them (based on what we've seen on the present-day Court administration, if they knew about Jeanne, they'd want her to go on being stuck as a vengeful ghost to keep out the forest-folk) or have to take orders from the ones who see it as useful and would be in a compromising situation if they found out. Except Parley and Smitty have to take orders from the administration as well, theoretically. And Donald, at least, has shown a proclivity for going where he's not supposed to. And Eglamore practically encourages Annie to break the rules (and is quite negative toward "the bureaucracy"). I'd say there are plenty of adults who would have helped them and not told anyone. At the very least, they could have told Jones-- who specifically asked Annie to do so once she had enough information. Jones does strike me as the best candidate for Annie and Co. to have gone to. Partly because of her credentials, partly because of hitches with everyone else. THE COURT ADMINISTRATION: I don't think that the current administration knows about Jeanne (I seriously doubt that the Founders would have passed down the information to anyone), but based on its current behavior (say, Reynardine) if it did find out, I suspect it would demand that Jeanne and her boy-friend be kept where they are, do everything possible to prevent Annie from freeing them - possibly even lock Annie and Co. up after asking "Have you told anyone else about this? Nobody? Good." (And probably then, if Annie and Co. mentioned how they found out, grabbing Diego's recordings and erasing them so that nobody else could find out about Jeanne and try freeing her.) THE DONLANS AND EGLAMORE: I still suspect that, while they'd sympathize with Jeanne's plight, they might be hesitant at freeing her and her boy-friend, as going against the Court. THE GUIDES: They were bending the rules enough by just asking for Annie's help (and seem to have known nothing more about Jeanne than that she was a ghost in need - they didn't even know her name until Annie told them). COYOTE: Given his track record, I wouldn't even consider approaching him. Jones, on the other hand, is not beholden to the Court, has been around for a very long time, and is knowledgeable about all sorts of odd things. This makes her the ideal go-to person. The only drawback might be that she often shows signs of preferring to let people discover things or accomplish things on their own, with minimum assistance. But it does seem more likely that Annie didn't approach her out of her "Don't trust the grown-ups" or "I insist on doing everything myself" habits. The big problem with "Whom to go to" still remains that the Court administration would have opposed this endeavor if it knew about it. Holding a revolution to replace the Court leadership with a less paranoid and scheming group would be difficult, if not impossible - as would trying to change the guys at the top for the better (whether in a "Tonight you will be visited by three Spirits"-manner - presumably with Diego as Marley's Ghost, though I'm not sure who'd play the other three ghosts - or something else). Even if Annie had been more willing to trust the grown-ups, and more ready to let someone else be the hero, I think they'd still have had a difficult time. (Nor would it have helped that, since the Founders had no intention of undoing their work, and thus would have most likely never researched a way of setting Jeanne free, our leads would still have had a real challenge figuring out how to fulfill the task.) |
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Post by warrl on Mar 14, 2017 1:18:44 GMT
Well, if they could successfully recruit Jeanne to be one of them, the problem would be solved...
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Post by todd on Mar 14, 2017 2:20:04 GMT
Well, if they could successfully recruit Jeanne to be one of them, the problem would be solved... Um, the purpose of "visited by three Spirits" is to give the visitee or visitees a change of heart, not to slaughter him/them. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Mar 14, 2017 4:01:40 GMT
Well, if they could successfully recruit Jeanne to be one of them, the problem would be solved... Um, the purpose of "visited by three Spirits" is to give the visitee or visitees a change of heart, not to slaughter him/them. An opportunity to have a change of heart, to be specific. Sometimes it doesn't work. |
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Post by csj on Mar 14, 2017 4:24:10 GMT
Well, if they could successfully recruit Jeanne to be one of them, the problem would be solved... Um, the purpose of "visited by three Spirits" is to give the visitee or visitees a change of heart, not to slaughter him/them. Funny you should mention that. The Court's device essentially created an artificial 'ghost'; the RotD also had an interest in her. Whether or not there is enough left of her to become a ghost or if her fate qualifies as an unjust, unfair death are another thing entirely. Unjust yes, but in terms of having a chance to make an impact upon the world, that depends on how the RotD defines it. What's being described would probably require better illusions than what Ayilu generated; the more complexity and unknowns, the harder to sustain the illusion - all the more reason why reliance on the fairies was a... questionable choice. To decide if she wanted ghosthood, Jeanne would presumably need to acknowledge her own death. Annie isn't the only one likely distressed. Kat's slowness in finding the device and unlocking it (which itself only came into play after Annie lacked the ability to do it herself and nearly became another victim of the device) gave Jeanne enough time to shake off the illusion and almost kill them all. Annie isn't totally aware why, but she knows there's something pushing her to act, which may also affect whether or not she gave this suggestion any thought. After all, psychopomps and RotD see themselves as competitors, in a rather general sense. |
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Post by Runningflame on Mar 14, 2017 5:57:37 GMT
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Post by Deepbluediver on Mar 14, 2017 12:29:18 GMT
Either this is the "be mean to Annie" arc or people (characters) are just taking advantage of the fact that without her anger, Annie is more of a doormat than usual. As much as I love our scarlet-tressed heroine, I think Red has some good points. Things nearly went, really, REALLY wrong, and even they're kind of okay now, we have yet to see the other repercussions of their actions. Hindsight is 20-20, as they say. It seems kind of dickish to only warn Annie about her mistakes AFTER they've occurred. Meanwhile, shall we remind Red of her attitude DURING the conflict with Jeane? gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1704I think anytime people's lives are put in danger is a good time to hold people to account, even people we like. Annie is not evil, but she has to acknowledge her role in the events. The greater part of maturity is growing and learning from missteps, not shrinking away from them. I hope Annie grows up and out and not down and in like her father... Fine, so as the protagonist Annie is the only participant in this debacle we're allowed to take to task, right? I mean, it's not like Parley and Smitty are older or have at least as much responsibility as the court's representative and representative-guardian. To me, this all reads like 2017-Tom reacting to the story 2005-Tom wrote. "Ugh, I know I need Annie to defeat Jeanne here, and also become a psychopomp here... but this is still wrong. Someone needs to call her out on this." If that's true, I feel like nearly ANYONE else would have been a better mouthpiece. |
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Post by xtinas on Mar 14, 2017 13:03:41 GMT
Oh dang, yeah, you're right. This lends more credence to the dream sequence/controlled by someone else/idk just not-very-Red theory I have going. |
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Post by Deepbluediver on Mar 14, 2017 13:30:06 GMT
This lends more credence to the dream sequence/controlled by someone else/idk just not-very-Red theory I have going. I honestly hope your wrong about that, at least the "dream sequence" theory. I don't like it when I get upset at stories in the first place- then telling me all my emotional investment didn't matter is only going to compound the issue. |
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Post by snowflake on Mar 14, 2017 16:43:26 GMT
The issue with Red is, that he is not mature enough to understand. He is starting to begin to think about people around him. It seems to me, he lived a very egoistical life before. Since he is realizing that he has feelings for Blue, his thoughts and fears have a wider approach. Red is a girl, m8. |
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Post by jda on Mar 14, 2017 18:30:39 GMT
Calling it: this creates anguish and anger in Annie and, as in TheFireSpike chapter, she makes a run to the one party open for her: The PsychoPomps.
Not immediately, but this chapter is Tom's way to cut Annie's strings to previous attachments.
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Post by aline on Mar 14, 2017 19:30:31 GMT
Calling it: this creates anguish and anger in Annie and, as in TheFireSpike chapter, she makes a run to the one party open for her: The PsychoPomps. Not immediately, but this chapter is Tom's way to cut Annie's strings to previous attachments. You really think she hasn't grown at all since?
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Post by Deepbluediver on Mar 14, 2017 19:41:19 GMT
Thinking about this now could avoid her a Tony situation later : "Oh, right, no living man or creature knows how to save you, but I'll work it out don't you worry. Help? Who needs help?" I think this is a good point- Aesops delivered badly tend to teach the wrong lessons. Instead of "I need to be more careful and think things through more", you get "everything is always my fault and therefor my responsibility to fix". And you end up with a Tony-situation where he's so obsessed with finding what went wrong with his wife he can't even see the new problems he's creating with his daughter. Of course in the story a character might arrive at the "right" lesson eventually anyway, but if what a character learns is completely divorced from what the readers perceive, isn't that bad writing? |
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Post by Zox Tomana on Mar 15, 2017 6:12:07 GMT
Calling it: this creates anguish and anger in Annie and, as in TheFireSpike chapter, she makes a run to the one party open for her: The PsychoPomps. Not immediately, but this chapter is Tom's way to cut Annie's strings to previous attachments. You really think she hasn't grown at all since?
One would think she has, but growth can be fragile. Or, as How I Met Your Mother taught us, get totally written off to shoehorn in plot decided on ages ago. |
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