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Post by Zox Tomana on Mar 10, 2017 16:20:38 GMT
"Because you didn't want to get in trouble" is a perfectly valid reason when the power you don't want to get in trouble with is looming over the heads of you and all your friends. Rey's life would be in jeopardy, the kids and fae would likely all be expelled from the Court (some without completing their school careers) if they weren't instead secreted away to be experimented upon to study the ether, I bet their parents would face some kind of sanction, and I'm still not entirely convinced Andrew's life would have been saved. The Court doctors may very much have been pressured to "take their time" because what use, after all, is a medium who just eliminated a force helping keep you safe from the dangers of the Forest (even if you aren't necessarily aware of the provenance of that force, which I'm not convinced the very inner circle of the Court isn't). Annie does need to learn to take greater responsibility for her own actions and decisions. Annie also deserves a fair shake in front of her accusers. I am getting a little Tony vibe. Maybe part of her father's influence is that their ability to express their concerns and thoughts shuts down when agitated? 'Cos old Tony's concern there is that, really, he had no experience with what it was to like a girl or how to respond to a girl who liked him. "You just know" is entirely insufficient for someone like that, but Tony apparently wasn't able to really get that across to Donnie. Annie's concern here is likely that, if the Court found out what happened, some very serious consequences which Red is not thinking about could have befallen all of them. But she isn't apparently capable of fully expressing that in the heat of the moment. The more full argument for Annie's first statement is: "I didn't leave him to die, I made a deal with the Psychopomps to 'xyz' so that he could be healed, for sure, no doubt, with no Court-related delays." |
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Post by westwindreborn on Mar 10, 2017 17:31:20 GMT
I think a lot of Annie's decisions comes down to Tony abandoning her damaged her ability to trust adults, and everything she's learn about the court's actions has only reinforced her distrust of authority.
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Post by todd on Mar 10, 2017 17:36:50 GMT
If it wasn't for the fact that: a) Parley was probably in no condition to teleport anybody, at least not with any degree of accuracy and control and b) human medicine might not be enough to treat a wound inflicted by a ghost with a ghost-blade, they could have tried going to Good Hope (assuming that none of the staff there would try telling tales to the Court administration). Or some other hospital away from Gunnerkrigg.
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Post by rosencrantz on Mar 10, 2017 17:51:04 GMT
That "..." makes me feel like Red's about to take a turn for the manic.
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Post by crater on Mar 10, 2017 18:06:15 GMT
Same here, Tony vibe and Psychopomp vibe. Annie's operation in the end was a complete success. She had a cross-grained plan, she choose all the right people for the job, calculated sacrifices were made, and everyone made it back. Considering what Tony did to himself and failed at. I could easily see him giving Annie a "satisfactory" rating for her overall results. (you could say Annie "cheated" off Kat for her success tho) and as a Psychopomp, Annie did something many others died attempting to do which makes her valuable. As someone who stands at the gates of life and death, you know, maybe this whole business of sacrificing friends and rescuing lost Souls IS a "game" to Annie (a game she is good at and doesn't even know she is playing). Maybe Annie taking JEANNEEE back to the ether is more important than Smitt's life; in the Psychopomp's perspective. also this is besides the point, but if someone gave me the opportunity to be stabbed through the heart but be perfectly fine afterwards, I'd take it in an instant. |
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Post by selthafrinon on Mar 10, 2017 20:26:50 GMT
I think the main fault Annie is guilty of is overconfidence. Looking back at the last two chapters, she had a half-baked plan with very few options for a speedy retreat. For instance, when she got to the arrow she no clue what to expect; when she got sucked in, she had no idea what to do. There was no plan for dealing with wounded party members, no plan for escaping, and no plan for getting non-combatants to safety if the illusion broke. As some pointed out before, if Parley was killed they would have had no way to get back up to the court; keeping in mind that Parley is their only combatant and had the highest chance of being killed.
There was a lack of any medical supplies of any kind. They went down to an unexplored area, with the chance of engaging an enemy who has killed literally every person that has seen her, and no one thought to bring medical supplies. Concerning the end-game of their plan, had they expected that the successful retrieval of the arrow would cause Jeanne to stop attacking? Did they plan for Green Guy to appear and end the hostilities? There isn't any evidence to show that they did. Their plan didn't appear to account for the chance that Jeanne would remain hostile after the arrow's retrieval.
There are a few other things that show their lack of preparedness (having an inexperienced Dragon-Slayer padawan rely on powers she didn't fully understand to combat a lifeless killing machine being one), but the point is that the plan could have, and ought to have been, better thought out. The debate is whether Annie shoulders the majority of the consequences of the team's lack of preparedness; in effect, whether Annie is responsible for Robot's destruction, Andrew's near-death experience, and whatever developments happen between the Court and the Forest, beneficial or otherwise.
Annie is responsible for these things; to put it more crudely, Annie is to blame for these things. I'm not calling into question the agency of the other party members: Andrew, Parley, Kat, and everyone else that came did so of their own free will. But Annie was their leader: she acted the part before-hand (such as when she went to Kat to see if she had developed a way to track the arrow or when Parley asked Annie if it was time to confront Jeanne) and she acted the part during the event (when she denied Parley the chance to take Andrew to the hospital in order to convince the Psychopomps). The plan they discussed and implemented had to have been approved by her/was definitely approved by her. The others are unlikely to blame her because they are her friends, but that doesn't change that she approved a plan which put them in harm's way without any adequate backup plans.
Some argue that the other party members made the goal their own when they freely chose to embark on this quest (with the exception of Ayilu, who was bribed) and therefore took responsibility for their lives, leaving Annie free of blame. But Annie was still the leader of the group: without her there is no mission. To put it another way, if Kat, Parley, and Smitty wanted to go, but Annie decided against it, the group would not go. If Annie decided to go, the rest of the group would redouble their efforts to make themselves ready for the mission (as seen when Kat comes up with a method to track the arrow after Annie decided to go.) Annie is the only absolutely required party member; that requirement and her intimate knowledge of the situation put her in a position of power above the other members of the group.
Annie had to have approved the plan the group ended up using: a plan that was full of holes and made assumptions that nearly cost two people (four if you count herself and Robot) their lives. She could have vetoed the plan if she believed it put her friends in too much danger but she chose not to. There are three possibilities for this decision: 1) that she truly believed the plan was adequate for the danger involved and would result in her friends all returning alive, 2) that she believed she could improvise a solution to whatever happened which would end with all her friend returning alive, or 3) that she understood the risks the plan had and accepted that some of her friends could die. The first choice is short-sighted, the second is over-confident, and the third is too dark to consider.
She was lucky enough that the second choice happened, but luck does not absolve a leader of responsibility. If the coin had fallen the other way, they would all be dead. Annie has to take responsibility for leading her friends into such a situation.
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Post by scottjm on Mar 10, 2017 20:55:08 GMT
I think a lot of Annie's decisions comes down to Tony abandoning her damaged her ability to trust adults, and everything she's learn about the court's actions has only reinforced her distrust of authority. Annie also knows that they were planning to kick her out, and has seen nothing to show that is not the case. Even the deal they made with Tony is not 100% as they can find something else to use as a reason if they want to. She can not be certain how long she has in the court, which put her under a time crunch. As well, I do not know if anyone has said this before, but what if the arrow was weakening/breaking down? Nothing man-made lasts forever, and it is probably centuries old. That Annie was told Jeanne could not cross the water, only to have the proven false later that night could be seen as evidence of it weakening. Which could be dangerous, as what if it weakens to a point that she could visit the court or the forest? there would be a considerable body count. Yes what she did was dangerous, but Jeanne was kind of a ticking time bomb since the only thing that would alleviate her anger was freeing her lover's soul, but without that the chance of her going on a rampage in the court some day (either from the arrow weakening its hold keeping her there, or her anger growing to the point she started taking hunting trips) was not an an acceptable level. Most of what Annie has seen says the court would not care about the potential danger, and it could be centuries before anyone else has a plan that could work. The plan was dangerous, and if it backfires a TPK was very likely, but it was pretty well thought out. As to not taking Smitty to a doctor, at the point Annie made that call it was the right one since the healing she tried for was faster, safer and more thorough then a distracted Parley trying to get to the hospital with Smitty's luck probably not functioning at 100%, meaning there was a serious chance of killing both of them in a teleport, and jumping would likely hurt Smitty more possibly killing him. With the guides Annie knew the price for healing, with the court the price was potentially far worse for all involved, and could easily have been a tipping point for kicking her out. |
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Post by stuffedsandal on Mar 10, 2017 21:18:39 GMT
You're right! Dumb of me. |
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Saliant
New Member
Still working at it!
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Post by Saliant on Mar 10, 2017 21:41:50 GMT
I am getting a little Tony vibe. Maybe part of her father's influence is that their ability to express their concerns and thoughts shuts down when agitated? 'Cos old Tony's concern there is that, really, he had no experience with what it was to like a girl or how to respond to a girl who liked him. "You just know" is entirely insufficient for someone like that, but Tony apparently wasn't able to really get that across to Donnie. Annie's concern here is likely that, if the Court found out what happened, some very serious consequences which Red is not thinking about could have befallen all of them. But she isn't apparently capable of fully expressing that in the heat of the moment. The more full argument for Annie's first statement is: "I didn't leave him to die, I made a deal with the Psychopomps to 'xyz' so that he could be healed, for sure, no doubt, with no Court-related delays." I'm feeling that, too. I've felt that since this conversation began that Annie, in her motivations and rationale for the whole thing, was acting a good bit like her father. Not intentionally perhaps, but it stands to reason that she'd get something from him and not just be Surma II, which is something that a lot of people around her have been under the general assumption of. |
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Post by fia on Mar 10, 2017 21:54:18 GMT
Is Red just a human (fairy?) personification of the internet? Her hair! It goes up! So cool! But also let me explain to you exactly what you did wrong and use every argument that the forum came up with to do so. Had the same thought! Red totally reads the forums. Shout-out to her for being the Voice of The People! |
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Post by westwindreborn on Mar 10, 2017 22:14:00 GMT
I wonder if this will be the beginning of Annie pulling away from her friends, leaving them behind with just a, "I have work to do."
No matter what Annie seems to do or how benevolent she tries to be, her actions end up being selfish and hurting others. Will this be the point where she decides to go it alone from here and keep people at a distance to avoid anyone else being a victim of her selfishness?
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Post by Deepbluediver on Mar 11, 2017 1:24:57 GMT
I'm not really sure where this is going. Yeah Annie might have been a bit reckless, but AFAIK she didn't trick or force anyone into joining her and she did do her best to fix the problems without getting anyone else in trouble. Expulsion from the court is probably pretty serious business.
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Post by Runningflame on Mar 11, 2017 6:06:24 GMT
selthafrinon , thanks for that thoroughly argued post. I am in agreement, and it is interesting to see how Annie is the de facto leader of the group even though she's not the oldest or in any position of authority over the others. Maybe they defer to her because of her greater experience in dealing with etheric beings (the same reason everyone assumed she'd be chosen as the medium). Welcome to the forum! also this is besides the point, but if someone gave me the opportunity to be stabbed through the heart but be perfectly fine afterwards, I'd take it in an instant. Um... no thanks. 
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Post by storyteller on Mar 11, 2017 6:48:50 GMT
Something to keep in mind with Red is that she probably doesn't know that Annie is on as thin ice as she is. Secondly, while Annie did get a trade with the psycopomps, Red apparently could see them. And depending on how much she knows about them, thinking that they were willing to help might be something foolish from her perspective. Annie only got the help because she had something they wanted, that's not exactly common nor reliable.
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Mar 11, 2017 14:43:14 GMT
Something to keep in mind with Red is that she probably doesn't know that Annie is on as thin ice as she is. Secondly, while Annie did get a trade with the psycopomps, Red apparently could see them. And depending on how much she knows about them, thinking that they were willing to help might be something foolish from her perspective. Annie only got the help because she had something they wanted, that's not exactly common nor reliable. Good point about Red seeing the psychopomps. In the last chapter it appeared that the whole gang could see the psychopomps, but I think you could have chosen to believe that only Annie could see them and the others were reacting to Annie talking to something they couldn't see. This conversation makes it really hard to hold onto that perspective. If Red couldn't see the psychopomps, then the only way Red would know what she is saying now is if the Annie had explained it to the gang. If Annie had explained it to the gang, then I don't think Red would be including it in her litany of accusations. I can only think of one straw to hang on to, Annie told the gang about the psychopomps after they bipped back, but Red didn't think things through until later. |
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kefka
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Post by kefka on Mar 11, 2017 21:18:40 GMT
I still don't get why Red's acting like the whole Jeanne thing was Annie's idea and she just dragged everyone else with her.
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Post by Zox Tomana on Mar 11, 2017 22:14:58 GMT
Something to keep in mind with Red is that she probably doesn't know that Annie is on as thin ice as she is. Secondly, while Annie did get a trade with the psycopomps, Red apparently could see them. And depending on how much she knows about them, thinking that they were willing to help might be something foolish from her perspective. Annie only got the help because she had something they wanted, that's not exactly common nor reliable. Good point about Red seeing the psychopomps. In the last chapter it appeared that the whole gang could see the psychopomps, but I think you could have chosen to believe that only Annie could see them and the others were reacting to Annie talking to something they couldn't see. This conversation makes it really hard to hold onto that perspective. If Red couldn't see the psychopomps, then the only way Red would know what she is saying now is if the Annie had explained it to the gang. If Annie had explained it to the gang, then I don't think Red would be including it in her litany of accusations. I can only think of one straw to hang on to, Annie told the gang about the psychopomps after they bipped back, but Red didn't think things through until later. Furthermore, "asked them to wait while you stood around and talked to 'em." Red... did you read the same chapter we did? Annie didn't just stand around and talk to them, she ASKED THEM TO HEAL ANDREW. She was literally intervening on Andrew's behalf with the Guides of Death. If the rest of the crew could see the guides and hear the conversation, then Red is leaving out quite the chunk. I feel like the group may have only been able to partly see or hear Annie and the Guides. Otherwise... Which may mean Annie told them the Guides healed Andrew, but not about the price. Again, I get what Tom may be trying to do here, with Annie needing to get smacked around a bit, but there's some really big holes in Red's points. |
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Post by snowflake on Mar 12, 2017 4:44:32 GMT
I wonder if this will be the beginning of Annie pulling away from her friends, leaving them behind with just a, "I have work to do." Especially if the Guides assign her a mission which she can use as a pretext! Anthony and Donald (not to mention her actual friends) would freak out, it'd be great. |
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Post by TBeholder on Mar 12, 2017 16:16:08 GMT
Especially if the Guides assign her a mission which she can use as a pretext! Anthony and Donald (not to mention her actual friends) would freak out, it'd be great. Donald won't freak out. If he managed to deal with Anthony and all bugs in his skull all those years... |
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Post by OGRuddawg on Mar 12, 2017 17:13:49 GMT
I still don't get why Red's acting like the whole Jeanne thing was Annie's idea and she just dragged everyone else with her. Red's emotions are tying in to her accusations, and she is likely projecting on to Annie. She is now facing the fact that she loves Ayilu, that Ayilu and herself chose to go on a dangerous mission for Ayilu's name, and that they were almost killed on said mission. In addition to all that, she is likely facing emotional trauma from almost losing Ayilu. Annie's mission was the catalyst for all of this, so Red is probably focusing on that so she does not feel responsible for her role in all of this or for her current emotional state. I'm not a psychologist, though, so I could be wildly inaccurate in my assessment of Red. This is just my best guess. |
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Post by keef on Mar 12, 2017 17:27:59 GMT
I still don't get why Red's acting like the whole Jeanne thing was Annie's idea and she just dragged everyone else with her. Red has the power of lawyering. Ayilu looks like she has seen this act before |
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Post by goldenknots on Mar 12, 2017 18:22:53 GMT
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