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Post by saardvark on Jan 23, 2017 19:57:18 GMT
(this is a nit-pick, but Annie's hair clip is missing in panel 4...) (maybe flash-melted in her anger by the fiery side of her nature...) It's behind her head. yeah, you're probably right - close to her head, with the hair we see on the right having swung around a bit from further back. my bad. |
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mu695
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Post by mu695 on Jan 23, 2017 20:18:59 GMT
So, lets play Devil's advocate. How can the pomps defend their claim that they owe Annie nothing?
1) "We don't owe you anything. Who said that we'd reward you for this?"
2) "We don't owe you anything. We've already saved your life once." (see chapter 8, Annie would've most likely died if it weren't for her being given a blinker stone, her death either being caused by the cold or by Jeanne {there's also the fan theory that Jeanne is scared of light, adding to the claim that the blinker stone and hence the pomps saved her life}).
3) "We don't owe you anything. You already owe us a favour from when I delivered that letter to Mort for you. Now we're even."
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jan 23, 2017 20:25:59 GMT
I wonder, quite hypothetically of course, what would happen if the psychopomp who said that got shanked with Diego's arrow? I had to meditate on that one for a while. 'Pomps can get killed and the world keeps spinning, but killing one with Diego's arrow should also damage the RotD (maybe more than with Jeanne, maybe less) and, depending on the strength of their connection to the 'pomp in question, may cause other people to "stick" when dying. Likely not all of those people will get stuck, in fact, probably only those with the strongest connections, but it'd still be a mess and the RotD would need mediums to clean it up. Well, the question here is, are the guides actually unable to interfere with the living, or is this just some rule or code they are mercilessly sticking to? Edit: Annie says she knows they can help. Is this a general assumption in her part or did she witness one of them bend the rules before? More than delivering a gift from a ghost? Point. They probably can do something that would change Smitface's fate (assuming for the moment that he is actually dying and again, he may well not be). Maybe all they can do and/or all they need to do is hint that the kids should bip him to the ER or some other trained/equipped adult instead of yelling/panicking. But what would the consequences be for the 'pomp that breaks the rule? Would the 'pomps here who disagree with the decision to help interfere (if they are able)? Would the higher-ups at the RotD do something? Not that Antimony cares, tho. But, back to my example of the postman and the stuck letter. Suppose that a postman asked someone to unjam a mail slot and thus a letter was knocked loose that had been stuck there for a long time. In his joy, the postman gave the helpful person a nice important-looking piece of mail that was about to go into his bag (and was not sent by or addressed to the helpful person). What sort of postman would that be? |
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Post by jda on Jan 23, 2017 21:07:52 GMT
Is it perspective, or the pomps closed ranks on Muut in the last panel?
protecting him from Annie's about-to-explode elemental Valkyrie?
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Post by fish on Jan 23, 2017 21:42:28 GMT
I have the ominous feeling that Muut's next lines could perfectly be something like: "Now do your job. He is waiting. Do not forget the final records again." That would warrant another bap from Kat, this time in her mecha angel form. But, back to my example of the postman and the stuck letter. Suppose that a postman asked someone to unjam a mail slot and thus a letter was knocked loose that had been stuck there for a long time. In his joy, the postman gave the helpful person a nice important-looking piece of mail that was about to go into his bag (and was not sent by or addressed to the helpful person). What sort of postman would that be? That would be a very bad postman. I understand the point you're making, though I don't think that analogy holds up well: Firstly, the postman's job is to deliver the letter as soon as administratively possible. The guides don't seem to have to be in a rush. Sure, they want to deliver souls as soon as possible, but sometimes the RotD for example gets in the way, and they can't do anything (except complaining). Secondly, two different letters might have two different recipients. Delivering the letter to the right person is basically the definition of the job. If a postman gives a letter to the wrong person on purpose, he's not doing the job badly, he's doing it wrong. However, two different souls will always have only one final destination, the ether. If the guides save Andrew, they aren't really cheating the ether out of a soul, just delaying the delivery. He's gonna die someday anyway. Unless of course the only way they can save Smittface is to make him immortal. That would go against their job description. ...That would be very lucky for Smitty, though. Huh. I need to meditate on that. Edit: I really don't like using the word soul in this context. Is there another good shot word for "etheric essence"? |
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mu695
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Post by mu695 on Jan 23, 2017 22:13:57 GMT
Edit: I really don't like using the word soul in this context. Is there another good shot word for "etheric essence"? Life force? Spiritual being? Spirit? |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jan 23, 2017 22:45:13 GMT
I really don't like using the word soul in this context. Is there another good shot word for "etheric essence"? I think "soul" is okay as long as we're aware we're not talking about an immortal soul in the context of the Gunnerverse. (T)he postman's job is to deliver the letter as soon as administratively possible. The guides don't seem to have to be in a rush. Sure, they want to deliver souls as soon as possible, but sometimes the RotD for example gets in the way, and they can't do anything (except complaining). I can try tweaking the analogy by making it more complicated. The important-looking envelope that is Smitty now appears to Antimony to be on the desk in the post office, or tilting into a mailbox slot, or otherwise heading by forces already applied to it into the mail. What Antimony's actually asking is for a postal employee to knock that letter off the desk/away from the slot it's sliding into and otherwise out of the normal flow of mail, and thereby prevent Smitface's stamp from getting cancelled so it'd be inappropriate to take him into the ether/drop him into a bin to go into the sorter. (T)wo different letters might have two different recipients. Delivering the letter to the right person is basically the definition of the job. If a postman gives a letter to the wrong person on purpose, he's not doing the job badly, he's doing it wrong. However, two different souls will always have only one final destination, the ether. If the guides save Andrew, they aren't really cheating the ether out of a soul, just delaying the delivery. He's gonna die someday anyway. True, the "souls" all go to the same place in the end but the journey varies from individual to individual. The 'pomps also oversee that. Intervening or significant delay will probably alter that last part of a person's story as a result of things they do/don't do during their extended life. But if creative foot-dragging is now okay than under what circumstances would it not be okay for a 'pomp to extend someone's life/change someone's fate? When they're too elderly, sick or depressed to want to carry on? When they're bad people? When they don't have powers or are otherwise less important to the grand story? Would deciding these not make 'pomps into judges? Unless of course the only way they can save Smittface is to make him immortal. That would go against their job description. ...That would be very lucky for Smitty, though. It'd make someone some sort of undead, if they refused to take someone after they died, but propping up a dying person using etheric means..? My guess is that he'd continue to leak until his wound was repaired and whatever hack they did gets undone, and would have to have regular treatments (transfusions?) of ether to keep going. I'm not sure his abilities are compatible with that sort of thing but if they are maybe he could drain ether to support himself by pulling it to him with threads. He might sparkle while doing so. |
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Jan 23, 2017 22:47:52 GMT
Edit: I really don't like using the word soul in this context. Is there another good shot word for "etheric essence"? Life force? Spiritual being? Spirit? Ethervescence? Smitty would prefer to not lose his ethervescence through the the gaping hole in his chest. |
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mu695
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Post by mu695 on Jan 23, 2017 23:13:10 GMT
Life force? Spiritual being? Spirit? Ethervescence? Smitty would prefer to not lose his ethervescence through the the gaping hole in his chest. Too close to effervescence, i.e. fizz. |
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Post by fish on Jan 23, 2017 23:13:13 GMT
Unless of course the only way they can save Smittface is to make him immortal. That would go against their job description. ...That would be very lucky for Smitty, though. It'd make someone some sort of undead, if they refused to take someone after they died, but propping up a dying person using etheric means..? My guess is that he'd continue to leak until his wound was repaired and whatever hack they did gets undone, and would have to have regular treatments (transfusions?) of ether to keep going. I'm not sure his abilities are compatible with that sort of thing but if they are maybe he could drain ether to support himself by pulling it to him with threads. He might sparkle while doing so. That is a reference I did not see coming. A++ I was thinking more of that one guy in one of Neil Gaiman's Sandman books, Hob was his name? Basically, Death agreed not to come to Hob unless he explicitly asked for her. So he lived on, not aging anymore, every wound would heal eventually, maybe leave scars. Nothing else was different about him, Death just didn't come for him. |
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Post by warrl on Jan 23, 2017 23:48:57 GMT
Me: "Sure Green Guy could be giving back the useless hair clip she lost last time but I think it's actually his heart, which will save Smitty-" *Green Guy does a backflip, gives hair clip back* Me: "-Well I mean obviously Jeanne leaving will make Smitty's wound vanish now, anytime" *Andrew bleeds x2* Me *sweats*: "...the psychopomp club is there now OBVIOUSLY because Annie made a dea-" *Psychopomps tell Annie they owe her shit* I officially give up Why? It looks like your prediction record is as pure and pristine as mine - unmarred by any taint of accuracy. But that doesn't significantly slow me down. |
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Post by todd on Jan 24, 2017 0:23:28 GMT
Smits was injured doing their job. He was injured in a situation that would not have existed had they done their job correctly. Now they're not willing to break the rules to make that right, despite their responsibility for it. The people most responsible for that situation are Diego, Sir Young, and the other Founders; the Guides weren't responsible for them deciding to tamper with the laws of life and death, and couldn't have done anything about it. |
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Post by TheClockworkCoyote on Jan 24, 2017 0:37:55 GMT
They asked Anne to put back into place the natural order of things.
....she's then asking them to respond by stepping in to alter the natural order elsewhere -- which could bring up the question of how much of a role Fate plays in the Gunnerkrigg universe as opposed to self-determination. If there is a "Fate" factor in play, it may have been Smitty's "time to die".
You have the question of how much damage does it cause if something interferes with the natural order?
Any Supernatural fans here? If so, recall the episode in which Death -- in a wager with Dean -- asked as a price that Dean take over Death's job for a day, and how Dean's decision to save a child's life then spiraled into other deaths (or potential deaths) elsewhere.
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Post by Trillium on Jan 24, 2017 4:52:23 GMT
Bah! I've read three pages of arguments. We are just going to have to see how this shakes out. Andrew may live or he dies and becomes the Court's new resident ghost. If he does die the kids will come back with some hard learned lessons from this outing.
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Post by Zox Tomana on Jan 24, 2017 5:23:18 GMT
I have the ominous feeling that Muut's next lines could perfectly be something like: "Now do your job. He is waiting. Do not forget the final records again." *The guides vanish and Smitty stands next to Annie, smiling, as she turns around. Parley still holds Smitty on the ground.* *End of the chapter* I really hope I'm wrong, even writing it makes me feel like Boxbot combined with George RR Martin. I have serious doubt that the guides would be cross with Annie about Final Records. That seems to be an ROTD thing, and it seems that the Guides and the ROTD are two separate entities with a certain degree of un-like for each other (go back to the chapter where Mort takes Kat and Annie to the ROTD. The ROTD officials say "you Guides" and the bossman expresses surprise the Guides are still working on Jeanne. If the Guides and ROTD were one and the same, I doubt this kind of dialogue would occur). I feel the Guides' mutual refusal here has to do with their natural code. They ferry the dead. That is all. They make no judgement, they make no distinction. If you are dead, they guide your soul to the Ether. I think a Final Record is simply a natural extension of a "normal" guiding (as a Psychopomp apparently has to break it to a person that "yeah, you're dead, dude,") rather than being a hard and fast rule that must be followed. It seems intervention from another entity (think Jones back when Mort got hit by the bomb) is needed to declare a death "unjust" or "untimely" and get a soul shuffled over to the ROTD. |
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Post by saardvark on Jan 24, 2017 6:27:22 GMT
It seems intervention from another entity (think Jones back when Mort got hit by the bomb) is needed to declare a death "unjust" or "untimely" and get a soul shuffled over to the ROTD. perhaps that it the key then... others have suggested this outcome, but this explains why - Smitty death will be unjust, so the ROTD takes over and makes him a ghost. If his powers carry over, he will be a very lucky ghost, easily able to scare the pants off anything! But repercussions for Kat and Annie.... maybe a parallel to the last Harry Potter book, they carry on, detached/expelled from the Court, working to uncover its mysteries from the outside, with many inside collaborators.... |
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Post by Goatmon on Jan 24, 2017 12:42:14 GMT
It's always good to see Annie being a bit emotional. I know to some she'll come off as a bit of a brat for "You Owe Me!" But I can't imagine I would say much different myself. I think she comes across as totally reasonable actually. Smitty was only there helping her because of the mission that Muut and friends gave Annie, after all. He's stated before that he and his ilk are not permitted to directly interfere with mortal affairs. The most he was ever able to offer was the blinker stone, by giving it to someone who was no longer mortal, and giving them the idea of giving it to her. Arguing that he owes Annie or Smitty a favor because she helped entirely for her own reasons is a Muut point. |
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Post by todd on Jan 24, 2017 12:56:15 GMT
But repercussions for Kat and Annie.... maybe a parallel to the last Harry Potter book, they carry on, detached/expelled from the Court, working to uncover its mysteries from the outside, with many inside collaborators.... As I've mentioned elsewhere, I doubt that the Court would expel Annie and Kat, because then it could no longer keep a close watch on them; they'd be out of its control, and who knows where they'd be or what they'd be doing? (It's taken the same line with Reynardine.) Placing them under house arrest and permanent Detention would be more likely, under such close supervision that they wouldn't be able to do any more meddling. But that would make it difficult for the comic to continue, short of replacement leads. (While that solution might have one or two possibilities - including an element of "Don't be so sure that because someone's the main character they're safe" - it would also have a lot of problems.) If Smith dies, the best hope for "Gunnerkrigg Court"'s long-term future would be to have Annie and Kat successfully cover up their involvement and let Parley take all the blame and face the punishment (not too noble, of course). For that matter, if Smith dies, it's possible that Annie and Kat might be so devastated and guilt-ridden that they might decide to give up their investigations, blaming them for Andrew's death, and resolve to mind their own business henceforth, or at most, if they see anything strange, just pass the word on to Anja, Eglamore and Jones and let them handle it. Which would also raise difficulties for the webcomic's future. (Unless the subject of the next few chapters is Annie and Kat's friends trying to get them back to their old selves while both girls wallow in their guilt.) |
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Post by Glim Glam on Jan 24, 2017 13:07:35 GMT
Well, I really hope Smitty will be fine in the end. It would be really sad to see him go, even if the ROTD gives him some job to do.
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Post by saardvark on Jan 24, 2017 14:31:02 GMT
But repercussions for Kat and Annie.... maybe a parallel to the last Harry Potter book, they carry on, detached/expelled from the Court, working to uncover its mysteries from the outside, with many inside collaborators.... As I've mentioned elsewhere, I doubt that the Court would expel Annie and Kat, because then it could no longer keep a close watch on them; they'd be out of its control, and who knows where they'd be or what they'd be doing? (It's taken the same line with Reynardine.) Placing them under house arrest and permanent Detention would be more likely, under such close supervision that they wouldn't be able to do any more meddling. But that would make it difficult for the comic to continue, short of replacement leads. (While that solution might have one or two possibilities - including an element of "Don't be so sure that because someone's the main character they're safe" - it would also have a lot of problems.) If Smith dies, the best hope for "Gunnerkrigg Court"'s long-term future would be to have Annie and Kat successfully cover up their involvement and let Parley take all the blame and face the punishment (not too noble, of course). For that matter, if Smith dies, it's possible that Annie and Kat might be so devastated and guilt-ridden that they might decide to give up their investigations, blaming them for Andrew's death, and resolve to mind their own business henceforth, or at most, if they see anything strange, just pass the word on to Anja, Eglamore and Jones and let them handle it. Which would also raise difficulties for the webcomic's future. (Unless the subject of the next few chapters is Annie and Kat's friends trying to get them back to their old selves while both girls wallow in their guilt.) I think that, for exactly many of the reasons you mention, the Court maybe will do the unwise thing and expel Annie and Kat --- the other roads lead to plot dead-ends (detention, surrender to guilt), or deeply ignoble behavior (making Parley take the blame). Rey is a special case as a being with demigod powers. The Court might feel that Kat will be neutered because of lack of access to Court labs and technology. And they might feel that their own ether-magic-tech (e.g., Eglamore's purple anti-fire chalk) + Tony will be enough keep Annie off their backs or under control. They will be wrong, of course, on both counts... but the plot can go forward in interesting ways from this point. |
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Post by zaferion on Jan 24, 2017 15:32:33 GMT
ANNIE YOU HAVEN'T ASKED THEM THE MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION. WHICH ONE OF THEM IS KETRAK?  ? |
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Post by captainvigilare on Jan 24, 2017 16:03:49 GMT
As this chapter continues, I am beginning to think that Tom didn't actually cut out the planning; it just didn't happen.
Kat made some ether hijacker device, but apart from that it looks like their "planning" was: you (Blue) distract her while we get the arrow, Parley stop her when things go south... and Go Team!
Some planning might have had Smitty, Blue, Red and Robot wearing armor instead of day clothes, Parley ready to BIP people to safety if the need arises and Annie remembering what questions to ask. (I mean c'mon, the last two people from the founding of the Court and there is _nothing_ that you want to ask them? Annie had more questions for the random robot dude)
The whole thing seems half-baked and rushed; really out-of-character for the comic.
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Post by Glim Glam on Jan 24, 2017 16:40:00 GMT
As this chapter continues, I am beginning to think that Tom didn't actually cut out the planning; it just didn't happen. Kat made some ether hijacker device, but apart from that it looks like their "planning" was: you (Blue) distract her while we get the arrow, Parley stop her when things go south... and Go Team! Some planning might have had Smitty, Blue, Red and Robot wearing armor instead of day clothes, Parley ready to BIP people to safety if the need arises and Annie remembering what questions to ask. (I mean c'mon, the last two people from the founding of the Court and there is _nothing_ that you want to ask them? Annie had more questions for the random robot dude) The whole thing seems half-baked and rushed; really out-of-character for the comic. Yeah, that's what I really don't get here. Why didn't Smitty think to wear any armor at all? He was just standing there while not wearing anything to protect his body in case things went south, which they obviously did. Was he just counting on his luck ability alone to protect him? I don't know, something just seems off here. |
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Post by fia on Jan 24, 2017 17:32:25 GMT
Well, if the psychopomps don't owe Annie anything, either it's because (a) they have already given her something of equal or greater value (her psychopomp education, the blinker stone, something having to do with her life in the first place that we don't know about); or (b) because she never officially made a deal with them at all, and they know she is actually doing this for herself; she knew the risks involved, etc; this is the way things were meant to be, world-continues-to-spin kinda deal; or (c) there is some ulterior motive to letting Smitty die. On note (c), here is a useful list of comic book ways to stay alive after death. Many are open possibilities in the GC universe, among them: cyborg Andrew, soulless Andrew, undead Andrew, magic Andrew, divine-intervention-enabled regular Andrew, etc. Now I don't think Tom will let Andrew live in any ordinary way, myself, because he's not usually prone to gags like that, and because the dangerousness of Jeanne and the reality of death has been underscored so many times in this comic. But, on the other hand, if there are good puns in it or good plot devices available, it might happen that Smitts is still 'around' somehow, and that his incomplete aliveness will become its own plot driver. But hey! I'm just here for the comix. |
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Post by ducomors on Jan 24, 2017 18:09:35 GMT
I notice that it isn't Muut speaking, it is the collective. That make me wonder if there is an administration above the psychopomps. It has been shown that Muut can distinguish between I and we. then we have another higher power that can be appealed to. Additionally I wonder about Coyote, Do we know how he felt about Jeanne? Smitty is the courts medium, who has only just recently been accepted and it would take years to get some one new probably. The thing with either method, is it raises the question of at what cost? neither the psychopomps nor Coyote nor The Court will not want anything in return. I am willing to bet all three could save Smitty (at least in some form) but who will do so and at what cost to Annie will be the big deal. My prediction for next page: whomever is going to save smitty swoops in and states their cost. end chapter. next chapter deals with fulfilling the cost, and recovering Smitty. |
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Aura
Junior Member
I'm a ninja!
Posts: 79
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Post by Aura on Jan 24, 2017 19:08:46 GMT
Well, I'm putting my hopes on Kat since she's kind of a psychopomp now...
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Post by bshanks on Jan 24, 2017 21:05:19 GMT
I agree with Fishy, perhaps the comic up to this point has been an epic and heartbreaking villain backstory. Perhaps the protagonists will take on death itself, and the natural order:
* Annie, a beloved but flawed girl whose very goodness may lead to her fall (the chosen one, along with Kat)
* Parley, an impulsive warrior drawing close to becoming the monster she just vanquished (armed with Coyote's tooth, which can cut anything)
* Kat, who may be literally a nascent god, well-meaning but with a careless disregard for the old ways (has just discovered a lost ancient magic with power over death, and unified it with her Sphere)
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Post by Gulby on Jan 24, 2017 22:18:25 GMT
I discovered the page today because, reasons. And I'm freaking out bad for Smitty. BUT ! I had an epiphany. It's time now for my wild spec : Smitty died on a battle ground, right ? And we know someone who is a psychopomp for warriors : Brinny, the daughter of Odin, Brunehilde the Valkyrie. Why would have Tom mentionned her a while back, and being part of the group the parents were, if she is of no use as such for the story ?... The psychopomps are here to know which one will take Smitty to the ether, waiting like vultures around the not-dead-yet-but-soon-Smitty, just to see Brinny arrive with her peculiar "bip" portal, to claim Smitty. And she will take him body and soul, Valkyrie's way. And what else have we learned, chapter one if I recall correctly ?... That what we know of greek mythology is "real" in Gunnerverse, if a little modified by tales, because we know Basil the minotaur is real and so was Theseus. AND SO, if Theseus was real, Orpheus was too, probably. You know, the one that BROUGHT BACK HIS WIFE FROM THE DEAD REALM. ... New adventure for the team ! Go to the Vallalah to bring back Smitty ! And learn some other fact along the route to resolve the mystery either of how did the Court grew, or how to bring back Rey's soul into his forever resting body. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH~~~ *Going slightly mad* |
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Post by phantaskippy on Jan 24, 2017 22:35:22 GMT
3 options I see.
1. Mad Scientist/Angel Kat keeps Smitty alive, but not fully human.
2. Smitty and Parley are supposed to replace Green and Jeanne, but shenanigans.
3. Smitty dies, Tom Whedon's us and we all spend the rest of our lives growing increasingly bitter and cold to the world, muttering his name as an anthem of desperation till the day we die.
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Post by todd on Jan 25, 2017 0:22:38 GMT
I think that, for exactly many of the reasons you mention, the Court maybe will do the unwise thing and expel Annie and Kat --- the other roads lead to plot dead-ends (detention, surrender to guilt), or deeply ignoble behavior (making Parley take the blame). Rey is a special case as a being with demigod powers. The Court might feel that Kat will be neutered because of lack of access to Court labs and technology. And they might feel that their own ether-magic-tech (e.g., Eglamore's purple anti-fire chalk) + Tony will be enough keep Annie off their backs or under control. They will be wrong, of course, on both counts... but the plot can go forward in interesting ways from this point. Maybe, though the question is - how? Short of Annie and Kat going to live in Gilltie Wood (it's unlikely that the Court would allow that to happen - and the forest-folk might not accept Kat), if they're expelled, they'd no longer be in the Court's vicinity, which would make it difficult to continue the story (at least in a way that would allow the comic to keep its title). If they're expelled, therefore, the most likely way for the comic to continue would be for new leads - most likely Paz and the other classmates taking center stage, vowing to continue where Annie and Kat left off (if lacking most of their contacts, a potential problem). Maybe they could write to Annie and Kat in their new school in secret, allowing Annie and Kat to make occasional appearances as ex-leads, with the baton passed on (until, at least, some way is found to bring them back for the final chapters). Of course, the exile might not last long, once the Court finds itself faced with: a) another angry visit from Coyote and b) a revolt from the robots over Kat's expulsion. Leading, no doubt, to the Headmaster and his fellows privately cursing Annie's name all the more and wishing that Surma had sent her to some ordinary school instead. |
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